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Is COVID created by God? America was meant to get it?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by NothingIsImpossible, Apr 5, 2020.

  1. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    I initially thought it was a judgment from God, due to having a vision that suggested that it was. However I have since sought God, more thoroughly, for around a day and a half, for an answer. I now believe that it is not a judgment, but rather was birthed through natural means, it was neither God, nor the devil who sent it.
     
  2. ZNP

    ZNP Well-Known Member

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    Very appropriate verses -- This is Habbakuk's complaint

    How long, Lord, must I call for help,

    but you do not listen?

    Or cry out to you, “Violence!”

    but you do not save?

    3 Why do you make me look at injustice?

    Why do you tolerate wrongdoing?

    Destruction and violence are before me;

    there is strife, and conflict abounds.

    4 Therefore the law is paralyzed,

    and justice never prevails.

    The wicked hem in the righteous,

    so that justice is perverted.



    For example, when Dupont knew of all the harmful effects of teflon it took close to 50 years, and numerous deaths, and cancers to get justice. The large corporations were able to hem in the lawyers with all kinds of legal maneuvers and because they had more money and a bigger legal team. We saw the same thing with the cigarette companies, and the same thing with the Catholic church and their hidden abuse, and in many other examples. Of course we also saw the same thing in the civil rights movement and the assassination of many of their leaders.
     
  3. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

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    No. Not more than you. We were just born naturally and so also viruses are products of some processes, not directly created by God.

    Yes. And also Italy, Spain, Russia, Belgium, France, Iran etc.

    Everything that happens was meant to happen.
     
  4. solid_core

    solid_core Well-Known Member

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    Good! I hope you mean it!
    ... really...?
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ““Say to them: ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: As surely as I live, those who are among the city ruins in Israel will be killed in war. I will cause those who live in the country to be eaten by wild animals. People hiding in the strongholds and caves will die of disease.” Ezekiel 33:27 (NCV)

    ““I held back the rain from you three months before harvest time. Then I let it rain on one city but not on another. Rain fell on one field, but another field got none and dried up. People weak from thirst went from town to town for water, but they could not get enough to drink. Still you did not come back to me,” says the LORD. “I made your crops die from disease and mildew. When your gardens and your vineyards got larger, locusts ate your fig and olive trees. But still you did not come back to me,” says the LORD. “I sent disasters against you, as I did to Egypt. I killed your young men with swords, and your horses were taken from you. I made you smell the stink from all the dead bodies, but still you did not come back to me,” says the LORD. “I destroyed some of you as I destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick pulled from a fire, but still you did not come back to me,” says the LORD. “So this is what I will do to you, Israel; because I will do this to you, get ready to meet your God, Israel.”” Amos 4:7–12 (NCV)


    “I looked, and there before me was a pale horse. Its rider was named death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill people by war, by starvation, by disease, and by the wild animals of the earth.” Revelation 6:8 (NCV)

    “I will send a time of hunger and wild animals against you, and they will kill your children. Disease and death will sweep through your people, and I will bring the sword against you to kill you. I, the LORD, have spoken.”” Ezekiel 5:17 (NCV)


    ““This is what the Lord GOD says: My plans for Jerusalem are much worse! I will send my four terrible punishments against it—war, hunger, wild animals, and disease—to destroy its people and animals.” Ezekiel 14:21 (NCV)


    War, famine Pestilence/plague, wild beasts



    upload_2020-4-7_7-41-27.png

    How much of God’s four sore judgments have we seen in our lifetimes? How much are we seeing now? How much more can we expect to see?

    If we study all that plagues the human race, it seems all but accidents fall into one of these four categories. And we know God controls accidents too. The wild beasts seem far removed unless we include the transmission of disease from animals to humans. Like bats and rats spreading plagues. War is unending today. Famine hangs in a fragile balance.

    Not Just for the Jews of old. Revelation universalizes it.

    If we study the Book of Revelation on a spiritual level we see vivid symbols of the judgments. The bearing up under God’s wrath happening all around us. Especially in the flu epidemics now becoming a pandemics. All the seals, trumpets and bowls represent God’s judgment in endless cycles of pain and suffering of the human race culminating in the fiery end of the world.

    Does the Old Testament shape your world view? How do you understand the suffering in the world around you?
     

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  6. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

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    From pretty much day one America was "unGodly". Think about it for five minutes. The Patriots from day one disrespected their king.

    Back then (and technically today still) you're supposed to respect and revere your King. Not rebel against him because he did a small tax increase on tea and throw his tea into the water and definitely not by starting a war with him trying to win your "freedom" from him.

    England has had dozens of horrible kings and queens not to mention Bloody Mary who ordered the execution of hundreds of people just because they were protestants. Or Henry VI. Or... need I go on? Last I checked England hasnt removed or seceded from the monarchy. No they recognize the importance to remain faithful to God and to the Monarchy. But somehow the colonists were special and exempt from that rule. Then there was slavery (not that they had slaves but now they treated them.) And abortion and changing the freedom of Christian religion to freedom of religion.... need I go on?

    And the REALLY stupid part? After you won your freedom from the monarchy like you wanted your first act f making a government was to make George Washington a king!!! I mean... really? Thousands of people died so you could disobey God in one of the most pointless wars in history and yet you still wanted to make George Washington a king? Please!

    Anyway of course God is coming for America but this virus I'd not judgement on America. It was judgement on China.
     
  7. alan650

    alan650 Junior Member

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    Strange how you mentioned America over and over in the original post without acknowledging that this is a WORLDWIDE pandemic. There are countries outside of America. May God have mercy on us all.
     
  8. HatGuy

    HatGuy Some guy in a hat

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    When I hear people say this, I do wonder: when was America what it should be? Was there some sort of golden age of widespread Christianity and good moral living? If so, I can't fathom when that might have been.
     
  9. Jesse Johnson

    Jesse Johnson Active Member

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    However, it's beginning to look like America has the potential to end up being hit the hardest. In terms of landmass/population ratio, we're still behind Europe, but we're gaining on them. No need for the high horse bully pulpit.
     
  10. Jesse Johnson

    Jesse Johnson Active Member

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    You said:
    No warning about the serpents
    Moses seemed to have a little.
    The application of Isaiah 53:5 in a physical sense is not at all widely practiced.
     
  11. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    You are just cherry picking my words and twisting their meaning.

    I'll make this easy. Numbers 21 wasn't a judgment. Nonetheless they did have warning.

    This was BEFORE the cross, in fact it was a type and shadow OF the cross.

    I don't recall Isaiah 53:5 saying:
    But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was not at all widely upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed in a physical sense.
     
  12. Jesse Johnson

    Jesse Johnson Active Member

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    Wonderful display of ad hominem (ascribing motive)
    Human proclamation with no explanation. "Easy" for toddlers, maybe.
    But not the kind you specified. It's kind of hard to twist the meaning of "clearly warns exactly what is going to happen."
    Neither of which disqualifies the serpent attack as a judgment. In fact the first condition refers to a time when the judgments of God were more pronounced and documented as such.
    Then why are you portraying it as such? (last line, at least--the one before it is pretty obscure to me)
     
  13. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Right, so you know what my words mean better than I do? Talk about hubris. I didn't attack you personally in any way. I said you misrepresented MY words, and you did.

    You are contradicting yourself all over your post and clearly are not grasping what I am saying, even if you don't agree.

    I have preached in depth on Numbers 21 and consulted closely with someone with decades of ministry experience who has written a book on understanding God's judgement. I will not waste my time re-preaching a message and explaining an entire book to someone who shows no interest in actually learning from it.

    Numbers 21 is not a judgement
    Coronavirus is not a judgement
    Neither are consistent with Biblical judgement, especially NT judgement.

    Suggesting that it is judgement actually causes harm to to people's faith and their relationship with God. You believe what you want, but to others out there reading this don't let mindsets like this harm your relationship with God.
     
  14. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Jesus was specifically asked if catastrophes occurred as a judgment on the sin of the victims. Jesus emphatically declared: "No!"

    Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.

    Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
    -- Luke 13


    He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. -- Matthew 5
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Rome (or rather, the Western part of the Roman Empire) fell for a lot of reasons; but there's this strange narrative that Rome fell because it became degenerate or what not. But that isn't why it fell. Rome fell because the center of power moved to the East, to Byzantium (aka Constantinople); because of its conflicts with the migrating Germanic tribes, such as the Visigoths, through incompetent and inexperienced leadership, bad political and military decisions--ultimately resulting in the sacking of Rome by the Visigoths in 410 AD was the result of this, and then the sacking by the Vandals in 455, and finally the Odoacer's victory against the Romulus Augustus in 476 killed Rome in the West. Though, it must be remembered, that the Roman Empire continued in the East for another thousand years, until the fall of Constantinople in 1453 by the Ottomans; the contributing factors there? Well a lot, but in the end it's because the Ottomans had gun powder and cannons.

    So, we need to understand that Rome didn't fall because of some kind of moral failing; Rome fell because of complex historical and geopolitical forces.

    Whenever someone suggests that X is a punishment from God, it might be worth a bit more thinking. For example, if COVID-19 is a punishment against the world (and America in particular), then is God especially angry at the elderly and people with compromised immune systems? Because that's who COVID-19 is most devastating for. And if this is a punishment for some kind of moral evil, for what America has become "morally", then what is it morally that has God's deepest ire. Because when I look at the history of the United States I see a country which, in the past, imported and perpetuated a system of chattel slavery based on skin color, and even after being granted freedom were still being kept oppressed through evil and oppressive laws until the Civil Rights era (right about the time many claim America started getting "worse"); I see a country which, in the past, believed itself to have a divine right to conquest, subjugation, and the act of genocide of an entire continent and its native inhabitants, resulting in the utter slaughter of nations--of men, women, and children--and their forced removal from their land, and being help captive in reservations and made subject to grotesque eugenics programs of forced sterilization. I see a country which, in the past, put its own people into concentration camps on the basis of their national heritage, who systematically has deprived human beings of their basic human rights, and still struggles to do the very least it can to ensure the equality and equity of all its people, and ensure their relative peace and safety.

    Has America fallen morally? If it has, when was it better morally? When it was keeping human beings as slaves? When it was committing genocide against indigenous nations? When it was putting people into concentration camps? When it was engaging in segregation?

    Why is God only angry at America now? And why? Because more people have basic rights to life and equality under the Law? Because more people are standing up against corruption and against those evil who are against the poor, the oppressed, and the marginalized?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. John Helpher

    John Helpher John 3:16 Supporter

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    It's possible. There could be a variety of explanations all consistent and true at the same time. For example, the most solid theory (at the moment) for where the virus originated is from a Chinese "wet market" where animals of all kinds are sold for food. The conditions in which these animals are kept can be pretty horrifying. Perhaps human's greed and disregard for animals resulted in the consequence of this virus hopping from animal to human.

    But, also, we can see all around the world governments struggling with financial issues, that the virus was allowed to spread far and fast because of concern regarding our dependence on money, that humans all over the place continue traveling and going out in public without any regard for how they may be spreading the virus to new areas.

    Perhaps it is a punishment, or maybe it's a means of showing the world the consequences of its dependence on an economic system which fosters ever greater materialism.

    It could also be a precursor to huge geopolitical and economic change. The "experts" are slowly coming around to the fact that the world will never go back to what it was. Too much is changing too drastically. The world is shifting except; who knows what it will shift in to. This could lead to huge military conflicts. It could lead to huge financial changes, perhaps pushing the world's shift to digital currency even further along the track.

    It's good to be able to consider a variety of possibilities and as time passes and circumstances become more clear we can eliminate possibilities which become less likely and focus on possibilities which become more likely.
     
  17. axelthefox

    axelthefox New Member

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    I read that during the Middle Ages, that people blamed the Black Plague as God's vengeance. There was even a dancing plague(i kid you not) that people blamed on God's vengeance.
     
  18. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is COVID created by God? America was meant to get it?

    No and no. The devil was not responsible either. Any moral good or evil that results is a consequence of the reactions of human beings to it. For example, some human beings are reacting as heroes while others pretend to be heroes.
     
  19. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If I recall correctly the "dancing plague" was not a viral disease but a form of mass hysteria.
     
  20. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    .
     
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