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Is COVID created by God? America was meant to get it?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by NothingIsImpossible, Apr 5, 2020.

  1. NothingIsImpossible

    NothingIsImpossible Well-Known Member

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    So I'm never into the things people say like "God created <insert things> to punish <insert subject"!" But recently a friend posted on Facebook that they believe COVID is Gods way of punishing the world, more so America for what its become.

    Usually I'd say God doesn't purposely create such things. But then again I am reminded the bible does say God will judge countries and bring His "wrath" upon them. And as we know America is far from what it used to be. So I am conflicted on how to feel about COVID. Way before COVID was a thing I always believed America would answer for the path its taken and would fall like Rome. Granted COVID isn't going to make America fall.

    How do you feel about it?
     
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  2. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    Habakkuk 3:1-6
    Lord, I have heard of your fame;
    I stand in awe of your deeds, Lord.
    Repeat them in our day,
    in our time make them known;
    in wrath remember mercy.


    God came from Teman,
    the Holy One from Mount Paran.
    His glory covered the heavens
    and his praise filled the earth.
    His splendor was like the sunrise;
    rays flashed from his hand,
    where his power was hidden.
    Plague went before him;
    pestilence followed his steps.

    He stood, and shook the earth;
    he looked, and made the nations tremble.
    The ancient mountains crumbled
    and the age-old hills collapsed—
    but he marches on forever.:bow::bow::bow:
     
  3. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    Odd that it started in China then. The reason it's affecting America so badly is because of our failure to respond effectively and contain it.
     
  4. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    This is NOT how God's judgement works. God did not send it. Straight up. No question.
     
  5. crossnote

    crossnote Berean Supporter

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    Covid is a by-product of man’s sin and the Fall. Keep your eyes on Jesus, not the storm Covid is kicking up.


    Matthew 14:29-30 CSB
    [29] He said, "Come." And climbing out of the boat, Peter started walking on the water and came toward Jesus. [30] But when he saw the strength of the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, "Lord, save me!"
     
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  6. Jesse Johnson

    Jesse Johnson Active Member

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    To say that He did bring it about is as presumptuous as saying that He didn't. Who here would dare to claim inclusion in the Councils of Heaven? All He has to do is remove His hand for a moment and the devil would cause such compounded calamity as the world has never imagined. We know not the extent to which angels go to protect us even now. And were it not for the sacrifice of the Son of God, the protection we now have would be naught.
     
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  7. Salvadore

    Salvadore Member

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    It is a pandemic so it will affect the entire world. We are going to have pain and sorrow for a time. These things have happened throughout history. I do not understand why China does not regulate the food markets. Why do they keep allowing the sale of live animals in the market place? They know this is the source of viruses.
     
  8. Duke of Stratford

    Duke of Stratford One day at a time.

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    I think we have to accept disease—including this pandemic—as a result of the Fall. We can’t presume God’s motives. So I don’t think anyone has a right to say “God sent the virus because ____” or anything along those lines. We shouldn’t make definitive statements about why God allows tragedy to happen; we see how that turned out in Job. But we can pray to Him and respond to this circumstance in a way that honors Him.
     
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  9. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No. The wrath of God is revealed when He lets people go their own way. (Romans 1:18). All He has to do is let us go the way that seems right to man - it ends in death. That is stated twice in Proverbs. God ould have prevented the virus for sure. He chose not to.
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The practical reason we have this is completely because we ignored the last 2-4 viruses. I predict this will stop the US for 12 months or more because of 2 things that I see at work. People are dropping out of the workforce (temporarily?) due to stress, and meantime we have stopped sanitizing as well have added no new measures for social distancing, which is fading fast at work for those left working.
    Our oldest employee came back after one week.

    The US did not learn any lessons and refuses to learn. Have you seen any other country using cruise ships like the US does? Could it be that other countries see how dangerous they are to pack so many people together to socialize?

    And another thing. Trump doesn't follow social rules, so americans will not either.
    We are doomed to wallow in this virus and will pull the world economy down with us.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  11. Ada Lovelace

    Ada Lovelace Grateful to scientists and all health care workers Supporter

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    I feel that God could be using COVID-19 for a purpose, not a punishment. This pandemic is actively teaching us how deeply interconnected our lives are to one another, despite distances and differences. It's both frightening and beautiful to see the extent to which we are impacted by people we'll likely never know, how an infectious disease in one part of the world needs to be considered a concern for all in the world. This virus has transcended beyond all barriers that divide us, literally and figuratively. It's pushed us to unify in various ways. Scientists living thousands of miles apart are collectively pushing to find treatments and create an effective vaccine, and being rooted for by millions. People are reaching out to another, finding ways to connect to hearts and minds when they cannot connect face-to-face. Yes, of course there's still animosity and discord, there's hucksters to exploit, as there always has been, but there's also a surge of ingenuity and effort to give comfort and joy to others, even strangers. We are socially and spiritually connecting while physical distancing. I have friends from around the world who've been joining me for my hometown's online worship (and you are welcome to join, too! - WATCH | Bel Air Church)

    We've seen exceptional acts as service and sacrifice, of nurses and doctors who bravely persevere in treating patients despite their exhaustion and fear. I feel we've gained more understanding and recognition of the value of those with humbler jobs in society, the janitors and sanitation workers who are helping to protect our health, the grocery store and transit workers, the farm laborers, who are still providing for us, often at risk to themselves. We are realizing why we need to have gratitude for the simple things so many of us had previously taken for granted, such as TP, access to clean running water and soap.

    The Triumph of Faith, Romans 5:1-5

    1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we havea peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoiceb in the hope of the glory of God.3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.

    Even those who live alone, who've been isolated due the quarantine, are not alone, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.

    Suffering can refine us as much, if not more so, then triumph and joy. It can push us to adapt to changes. It can build our resilience. It can give us empathy and compassion, which enables us to love more deeply and fully. By having suffered ourselves we understand what is feels to suffer, and acknowledge that others are suffering too. This week in particular we need to reflect on how Christ suffered. What he endured. That He too understands suffering, having experienced it. We are not alone.
     
  12. Monna

    Monna Well-Known Member

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    I read recently that there are a variety of ways that God's attributes are described in the New Testament. Many of them can and are presented in two forns, for example, "the love of God" and "God is love" and "God loves you/us." The author pointed out however that this is NOT the case with "the wrath of God." The New Testament does not say "God is angry." He maintains that "the wrath of God" refers to the spiritual equivalent of the "physical laws" - like the "law of gravity." The "wrath of God" is not so much an active, directed and personal response by God to a particular sin, any more than we can say "Gravity purposely killed the mountain climber who lost his grip." The "wrath of God" comes on us as an unavoidable consequence of the patterns of behaviour we live by, individually and collectively.

    Jesus bore our punishment on the cross. It was He, if anyone, who bore the active and direct anger of God, on our behalf. So that we don't have to experience it in the present or the future.

    John 9 gives a beautiful demonstration of the difference between how we tend to see misfortune, and how Jesus (in perfect alignment with the Father) saw/sees it. When they first encountered the man born blind, they asked "who sinned, this man or his parents?" Their basic assumption was that the blindness was a direct result of sin, and their only question was "Whose?" Jesus replied, "It was neither this man nor his parents' sin that caused his blindness. He was born blind to reveal the glory of God!" In other words, the blind man was a God's miracel waiting to happen. And Jesus made it happen.

    God can and DOES use tragedies like this pandemic to achieve good. Crises of all kinds are often the times when people turn to God, whether they call him that or not. God is in this with us. And He is actively responding, with open and loving arms, to those who genuinely want his help.

    2 Chronicles 7:13-15 (NIV)
    “When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain (think Australia, California, southern Africa the past few months), or command locusts to devour the land (think the Horn of Africa this year) or send a plague among my people (think corona), if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place."

    Now my eyes are open and my ears attentive to the miracles He is performing in the midst of this plague. He is there/here, and He is neither silent nor passive.
     
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  13. Jonathan Walkerin

    Jonathan Walkerin Well-Known Member

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    Every great empire in the history of the world has fallen so exempting US from the list is hardly realistic.
     
  14. Amittai

    Amittai monitor evaluator

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    Culturally, the Fall can be seen as setting in due to conflict levels when land dwindled and a sparse hunting society was replaced by a mixed agricultural-nomadic one, and again when land desertified and bronze became scarcer.

    Spiritually it is an attitude of hubris.

    At the level of living & non living forms we cannot even know "the" age of the earth or that of Mytochondrial Eve and Y-Adam, because working estimates are fairly notional (which incidentally doesn't make them unrespectable).

    What some Christians seem to miss is that we ARE here because we are here.

    As Monna stresses, a policy of hubris which junior members of society find themselves implicated in is going to lead the world in its various aspects into troubles at all levels. This is why Jesus founded the church so small people can join in prayer ministry.

    Certain unworthy shepherds want to keep small christians as subalterns (as their power trip) so we don't grasp true teachings and rise to our Christ-called destiny.

    This is why warnings can be seen as allowed to be sent (from the universe) by Father - and they are to the church first.

    This is why we should implore & beseech God for the integrity of vision and conduct of our church seniors, and for just government and commerce everywhere, as well as for the needs of all.

    Punishment is going to follow - in two separate halves - and we'll be surprised. Meantime we have the usage that a schedule or a policy or a set of circumstances are punishing. But simplistic thinking merely confuses and denigrates.

    Britain is felt to have merely "happened" but the States had explicit values. Yes they were abandoned and what values other countries had and all nations and states were going that way all along. Also, the Black Death wiped out 40 % of the populace of Europe leading to all kinds of different balances in all fields.

    However near or far we are to the end of this particular age (I assume near), and however unprecedentedly grave, this sort of concatenation of events cannot be regarded as in the least unexpected to the thoughtful and well-clued up.

    Watch out for casually semi-plausible ideologies.

    Jesus will mainly ask us, did you pray that your church leaders would not go for hubris? And who told you not to?

    Because the church when savourless will be discarded. Some lights go out Rev 2-3. Our Father said.
     
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  15. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    There are over five places in the old testament where the Lord sent plagues upon his very own people the Jews to cause repentance.
     
  16. Jesse Johnson

    Jesse Johnson Active Member

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    I know we're not supposed to comment on signatures (especially in the negative) but once in a while I run across one that makes me almost smack the side of my own head like in that old V8 juice commercial and I think "Why didn't I think of that?" Sometimes I think Orwell understood the devil as well as Milton, in his own way.
     
  17. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Think about it this way:
    Does God contradict Himself?
    Would Jesus rebuke something God had ordained?
    Did Jesus win victory over the devil, or over God?

    If not then
    How could: Jesus bare our COVID-19 sorrows if God sent it?
    How could: anyone by His stripes be healed from the virus, if God ordained the virus?
    How could: we lay hands on the sick and see them recover, if God was the one who made them sick?

    If God sent this virus, the church would have no power to do anything about it, and, what Jesus accomplished on the cross would be incomplete/insufficient.


    Additionally when God does bring judgement He clearly warns exactly what is going to happen ahead of time. He provides a very clear opportunity for repentance ahead of time. In the NT it says He "will render to each one according to his deeds" not He "will render to each one according to the overall deeds of society"
     
  18. Jesse Johnson

    Jesse Johnson Active Member

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    And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
    Numbers 21:6-9

    No warning was given.

    Human logic doesn't determine God's purposes and actions. If it did, we'd all be hopelessly lost.
     
  19. ZNP

    ZNP Well-Known Member

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    Ever since we have kept herds of animals like cows, sheep, horses, chickens, etc. we have had to learn about viruses and how they work. Leviticus is really excellent on this. Right now we discuss "social distancing" and whether 6 feet or 27 feet is the best. In Leviticus someone sick with a contagious disease had to cry out "unclean". If you can hear them you would avoid them, that is clearly more than 27 feet.

    They were also told that there was only one way to take a census, you get a silver or copper coin from each person, they give it to the local town leader who then sends these coins to the central government. Virus will not live long on silver or copper, perhaps 3 hours. This process will insure that various viruses kept in a number of animal herds will not be spread all over the country. David failed to follow this procedure and as a result there was a pandemic due to the way he conducted a census.

    As for "punishment". Taiwan is a major conduit for anyone going to China. Many of the businesses in Taiwan have factories in China and there is a constant flow of people from China to Taiwan. So then, how many people in Taiwan died from Coronavirus? 5. That's right they would have been hit far sooner than the US and far more intensely and yet they were able to completely clamp down on it. When you look at the measures they took it may seem extreme, and yet the cost is a tiny fraction of what the US will ultimately pay for having to shut down the entire country. We could have done exactly what Taiwan did at exactly the same time they did it, and we too probably would have less than 100 dead at this point, instead of the 10,000 that are dead. So in that sense it is a judgement on governments response. Some are well informed, some are not.
     
  20. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Really? They had been warned about complaining over and over and they had already had consequences because of it.
     
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