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Is Christianity Ashamed of the Bible?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Achilles6129, Jul 27, 2014.

  1. Mama Kidogo

    Mama Kidogo Τίποτα νέο μυθιστόρημα τίποτα

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    Eastern Orthodox
    The first Paragraph doesn't concern me. It is folly to engage an atheist in biblical debate. They cannot grasp it's meaning and you'll end up banging your head against the wall. Scripture being attacked by outsiders should not strike us as anything but normal. The passages they choose to debate are not the ones that really bother them about scripture.

    The second part speaks some truth. I'd say all of us do some scripture twisting to suit our own means. Most of us don't even realize it when we do it. We all have some personal tradition we seem to love with equal reverence to scripture. Viewing scripture without a Tradition lens is almost impossible. It's been not only viewed in that manner but penned in such a manner. I mean it's not an instruction manual. It was penned by inspiration of a belief. God inspired means nothing to the unbeliever.
     
  2. rick357

    rick357 bond-slave

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    Those who do language acrbatics to change its meaning to something the world wont be offended by are by their actions proving they are embarrased. There are a great many others who hear somthing like the bible is sexist and dont know how to deal with the scriptures that the accusers use so they just say I dont agree with that. Now the enemy torments their faith because they dont know if they realy believe the Bible.
     
  3. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    LOL! Me thinks ye hit-ted da nail on da head there, brother

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Mama Kidogo

    Mama Kidogo Τίποτα νέο μυθιστόρημα τίποτα

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    Eastern Orthodox
    It's not the Holy Scriptures Christians are ashamed of. It's how it doesn't line up with their beliefs.
    Of coarse it offends us. Purposely so. I get my feeling hurt often by scripture.
     
  5. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

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    Why would someone be ashamed of scripture? There are no moral contradictions in the bible. There are plenty of misunderstandings of God's actions. My only answer to any perceived contradictions are because of the persons own limited understanding.. which 9 times out of 10 atheists hate to hear how limited their minds are.
     
  6. hopefinder

    hopefinder Newbie

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    Do not understand how could Christianity be ashamed of the bible. Or of anything. Put it this way: Scriptures may seem waste of space and time. But without it there would've been no context left for Christianity. Like the sheer Universe's ultimate waste of space and time. Yet without such a waste there wouldn't have been any context left for the Earth. Plenty of such parallelisms.
     
  7. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

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    MamaK has it right though.. trying to explain scriptures to the lost is really hard. We have spiritual insight and they don't. Without spiritual insight given by the Holy spirit much of he bible's wisdom falls on deaf ears.
     
  8. rick357

    rick357 bond-slave

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    Correct. The scripture is for those who believe. Those who believe are for the lost.
     
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    None of that is particularly difficult once three factors are understood:

    1. Progressive revelation. Jesus exemplifies this in His discussion of divorce and the law, saying, essentially, "You weren't ready in Moses' day for My real requirements." The OT was for a Bronze Age people. God did not hold OT believers to the same standard as Jesus holds Christians today basically because the Holy Spirit did not operate as a constant Counselor for them as He is for Christians. The New Covenant is one of "better promises" from both parties, replacing a now-obsolete Old Coventant, God as well as His believers. Jesus does not repudiate the OT, but Jesus does give an enhanced set of commands to His followers that were not placed upon the OT Bronze Age believers.

    2. Semi-understood implications by the OT writers as well as early believers. Not "misunderstood" or even "poorly understood," but not fully understood in all their implicatioins and ramificaitions. The best examples are all the Messianic references of the OT that were still "semi-understood" even by the first century. But another example is "do not bind the mouths of the kine that tread the grain," which Paul tells us was never about oxen, but about full-time workers for the Lord.

    3. There is a spiritual realm of spiritual beings. Believers gonna believe; unbelievers gonna unbelieve. Nothing to do about that but FIDO: File It and Drive On.

    4. It was not the mission of Jesus to "fix" the Roman Empire. It was not His mission to make the Roman empire or any other earthly kingdom look like Heaven or run like Heaven. Christians are "aliens," "ambassadors," "pilgrims and sojourners" in the nations of the world...not natives and not a rebellious army. Therefore, earthly kings in this fallen world will continue to operate as earthly kings in a fallen world, and the Body of Christ will perform it's mission around them, not attempting to overturn them. Therefore, there are elements of life in ancient times that Jesus (and Paul) do not dwell on as "things to fix in the Roman Empire," but explain instead how Christians are to relate to one another within the the world in which they find themselves.

    There is one big truth modern Christians shy from. Christian moral philosophy is at its base deontological. Yes, it is Divine Command theology: If God says it's right, then it's right in all its ramifications.

    There are two "problems" to acknowledge in holding Divine Command as one's personal moral philosophy: 1) Being sure one is truly hearing from God; 2) Being sure one accurately understands God's command. But all moral philosophies have their problems.

    Within the Body of Christ, we may debate long and hard specific issues on those two points, but we should agree with the basic premise that when we do know we are hearing truly from God and that we are accurately interpreting His command, then that is a morally correct command for us to obey.

    Christians have to own up to Divine Command Theology. It's the very same philosophy of the Roman centurion who amazed Jesus by his faith.

    Christians should also understand as evangelists that it is not necessary to completely demolish a prospective believer's current understanding of the world in order to present the gospel to him, or for him to accept it.

    The Philippian jailer already believed in a full set of pagan creation myths and philosophies the night he slammed the doors on Paul and Silas. Paul and Silas did not need to convince the jailer of Genesis before he could accept the gospel. He accepted the gospel first and got the rest later. Those the Holy Spirit has made ready to accept the gospel will accept it "as is," and will defer their other questions until later.

    I have a good friend who spent 12 years in Morocco as a pretty successful undercover missionary. His technique was simple. The Muslims he encountered observed him living a Christian life "in all Godliness and holiness." Those who were receptive to the Holy Spirit came quietly to him with the plea, "Tell me about Jesus."

    He did not try to demolish their Islamic beliefs, he did not hit them with theological doctrine. He merely sat with them and read the gospels, then Acts, then Romans, answering questions as they arose. Then he'd merely ask, "Do you believe what we've read?" He reports that any Muslim who stuck with him through at least Romans would respond, "Yes, I believe it. I want to be baptised." Those who weren't ready didn't stay that long.

    The gospel is much slimmer than we often make it.
     
  10. Optimax

    Optimax Senior Veteran

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    Obvious from the responses that most Christians do not understand God and why He does what He does.
     
  11. OneAccordRM

    OneAccordRM You hated Christ before you hated me.

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    Any Christian who puts any manmade doctrine before the written Word of God or refutes the Bibles authority as the divinely written inerrant infallible word of God is a disgrace to the faith.

    Period.
     
  12. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    I only have three pounds of raw meat in my skull by which to understand anything. Heck, I don't even understand my wife much of the time, and I sleep with her.
     
  13. squint

    squint Well-Known Member

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    If God meticulously exercised the death of His Own Son, I think that shows us where all other flesh stacks up.
     
  14. rick357

    rick357 bond-slave

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    I agree. Thank you. One point of interest divorce was allowed because of the hardness of their heart( as you said they had heart of stone untill Holy Spirit through Christ brought heart of flesh) Jesus said from the begining it was not so. My point being Christ is not bringing us to something as much as restoring us to what we were in the begining before Adams fall.
     
  15. Mama Kidogo

    Mama Kidogo Τίποτα νέο μυθιστόρημα τίποτα

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    Gotta love these 'most Christians ' statements. Is that to imply except for a few?
    I would doubt any man on Earth has much of a clue as to the mind of God and his reasoning except to understand that God is right and just in His ways.
     
  16. rick357

    rick357 bond-slave

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    Yes I wish those few who have his full understanding would help those like Paul who said we know in part and we prophesy in part
     
  17. Mama Kidogo

    Mama Kidogo Τίποτα νέο μυθιστόρημα τίποτα

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    :amen:
     
  18. Mama Kidogo

    Mama Kidogo Τίποτα νέο μυθιστόρημα τίποτα

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    Odd that those few never seem to enlighten the rest of us morons.
    I heard a story from a minister about him and three deacons being at one of the deacon's houses. They all came to move a piano into a room remodeled into a music room in his home. The three hefted the heavy piano down the hallway but it just would not make the turn to fit through the door.The sat there calculating how much would need to be cut away to widen the entrance.
    Then a mentally challenged man who was invited for his brute strength chimed in. "Why don't we just stand it on it's end and move the thing right on in?":doh:
    Oh how wise we think we are.
     
  19. Harry3142

    Harry3142 Regular Member

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    The 'bottom line' with many nonbelievers is the fact that Holy Writ, both OT and NT, teaches a morality that conflicts with their own immorality. As for the incidents recorded in the Old Testament of entire cities being eradicated and their citizens slain, that form of warfare is known to have taken place as far back as 6500 BC, so that way of waging war was standard operating procedure (SOP) by 1500 BC (the time of Moses). This anyone who has studied ancient history is familiar with.

    The strictness of discipline throughout the ancient Middle East was also SOP in that era, which is also known to anyone who has studied ancient history. The Code of Hammurabi did not 'pull any punches' when it came to those who violated the laws of his nation, so Torah was far from alone in its demands for strict discipline. It was a harsh time, and harsh times call for harsh decisions.

    So what we have today are those who want their own immorality, or even amorality, to be seen as equally acceptable societal behavior, but realize that the New Testament is a major hindrance to their goal. It is there in the New Testament where we find the moral laws which we as Christians accept as binding to us today. But even these NT moral laws condemn the actions of those whose lifestyle is determined by the depth of their sinfulness. Their hope is that by linking it with the laws and history of the Old Testament they can convince others to reject it in the manner of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

    One thing we Christians need to realize is that atheists have known for decades that moral law is grounded on religious belief, rather than religious belief's being grounded on moral law. So in order to destroy any and all codes of morality, they need to attack the religious foundation of that morality, rather than their attacking the code of morality directly. Only then can their own code of immorality, or even amorality, have the freedom it needs in order to become acceptable societal behavior.
     
  20. Mama Kidogo

    Mama Kidogo Τίποτα νέο μυθιστόρημα τίποτα

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    I have a habit , like most, of reading things into an OP that may not even be there so I guess i should ask: To the OP,
    Are you asking this because you perceive Christians to be failing to defend scripture?
     
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