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Is Christian Zionism Scriptural?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by SilverSpoon, May 22, 2021.

  1. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    Always read the Bible in full, don't cherry pick :

    29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

    So the seed is now by faith and not by blood, get it? The proof that Jews were no longer meant to dwell there is that for nearly two thousand years after Christ (and after it was fulfilled) they did not.
     
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    We are Abraham's seed, but Israel came from Jacob.
     
  3. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    And Jacob came from Abraham, not a separate line. The proof that they weren't meant to live there forever, is that they did not, simple.
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Boy are you confused. Joshua existed at the time when God led the children of Israel out of Egypt through Moses. Instead of allowing Moses to lead the children of Israel into the lands of Canaan, it was Joshua that led them. That was long................ before king Josiah of 1 Kings 13.

    Joshua died around 1434 B.C.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Again, you don't have a clue, because Joshua lived around 1544-1434 B.C. (per Bullinger's and Ussher's chronology). The children of Israel were cast out of the holy lands much later, as Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem to begin Judah's 70 years captivity at 477 B.C. The ten northern tribes of Israel had already been gone for about 120 years by that time that Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem/Judea, and destroyed the city, walls, and temple.

    So you are confused, big time. I suggest you get a copy of Bishop Ussher's chronology, or a copy of Bullinger's Companion Bible with Appendixes.
     
  6. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    Boy you are confused as there is no evidence at all that this man Joshua even existed. Even John Calvin did not believe so. The book is not strictly historical, but rather reflects a general past and recounts fulfillments of prophecies. Believing it to be fully historical is as laughable as believing that Moses wrote the Torah.

    Some cherry picked chronologies are not proof of fact, sorry. I'm sure you were there in 1544, having delivered Joshua from his mother, since you are so damn certain of this. Dating is the work of scholars who actually study the work and history, not bishops, and it's been dated to the 7th and 6th centuries. You continuously ignore how Joshua 21 refers to a fulfilled promise, because that doesn't fit your personal doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Funny... that is.

    "JOSHUA, BOOK OF

    "The doomsday book of Palestine," especially Josh 13-23. Authenticated by Scripture references to the events recorded in it (Ps. 78:53-65; 28:21; Hab. 3:11-13; Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8; 11:30-32; James 2:25 ). Joshua after destroying the kings, so that Israel had rest from war in the open field, divided generally the land; but this is quite consistent with the after statements that years passed before the process of division was completed and the allotments finally settled. Joshua was directed to divide land not yet in Israel's actual possession (Josh 13:1-14:5). God designed that Israel should occupy the land by degrees, lest the beasts should multiply and the land be desolate (Ex 23:28-30); for instance, though the kings of Jerusalem and Gezer were slain, their people were not rooted out until long after. The slackness of Israel to extirpate the accursed Canaanites was also a cause of non-immediate possession (Josh 11:16,23; 12:7,10-12; compare Josh 15:63; 16:10; 17:1,16; 18:1,3; 19:51). Joshua is based on the Pentateuch (to which it is joined by the conjunction "now" or "and" at its beginning), "now" but distinct from it. Compare Josh 13:7 with Num 34:13; 13:17 with Num 32:37; 13:21-22 with Num 31:8; 13:14,33; 14:4, with Deut 18:1-2; Num 18:20; 21 with Num 35."

    (from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
     
  8. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    That is not authentication, as Joshua is likely an allegorical figure representing Jews. The scriptures refer to things we know from history / science / archaeology did not happen (as even Rabbis admit) such as the Exodus, or Noah's fictional Ark, so that cannot be used as literal history all the time.

    You are still failing to grasp the main point, only Joshua 21 refers to a fulfillment of a promise, none of the other books do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  9. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Because a promise has yet to be fulfilled in your lifetime so far, you believe it was never meant to be? (Hebrews 11:13)
     
  10. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    Another invalid strawman argument, pay attention to what I actually said.

    1) It was already fulfilled in Joshua.
    2) Jews are no longer heirs to any promise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  11. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    If something is forever, it means forever to me.

    I understand you see it differently so let's move on from this, we can agree to disagree.
     
  12. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    It was forever, but Abrahams seed is redefined in the New Testament as Christians, that is not a matter of agreement. Why do focus on one word forever, and ignore all the other verses and related context? Willful ignorance doesn't make what you believe true.

    If Jews were meant to live there forever, why did the diaspora form after Christ came?

    Is the New Testament lying when it says WE Christians are Abrahams seed?
     
  13. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    But it didn't end up being forever, because they were out the land for almost 2000 years, between when Christ came and the modern state of Israel.

    God cannot lie, except when he calls us not Jews Abraham's seed, apparently that's a lie.
     
  14. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    -
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Abraham has many descendants, beyond Isaac and Jacob. He even remarry after Sarah died and had more children after that.

    So Jacob/Israel's seed does not have to be Abraham's seed, simple logic.
     
  16. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    Okay but why did it not come true? Why after it was fulfilled in Joshua, did they only stay there temporarily, until the Arabs started living there?
     
  17. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I already said that it will be fulfilled in the future, and even quoted to you Hebrews 11:13, to show that just because a promise was not seen in one's lifetime, it does not mean it won't come to pass
     
  18. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    And I already showed you where it was fulfilled in the past, to which you responded fulfilled is not forever. You seem to be back pedaling and going in circles a lot.

    Fulfilled prior to Christ but then they were ousted and came back many centuries later. A multi century gap means they didn’t end up living there forever.
     
  19. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So you have a different interpretation of Genesis 13:15.

    That is okay, I respect your different view.
     
  20. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    Its not an interpretation of Genesis, its what it says in Joshua. Joshua 21 clearly says that God made good on his promise and gave the Jews the land.
     
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