Is "Christian Zionism" Biblical ?

[SeventyOne]

Fair enough but we both have to play by the same rules. I don't believe you have adequately dealt with the Ephesians 2 text. If, as the author claims, the Gentile is no longer an outsider with respect to the covenant promises, how can there be "Jew-only" promises?

It is in this new covenant where the Jew and the Gentile alike find the same salvation and standing before God. I've already responded to your concern.

Once again, that's the covenant theology blind spot. All they see is what the scripture defines us as spiritual Israel and then assumes that completely negates the promises to physical Israel as well. It doesn't, no matter how much it is wished that it did.

As long as you all have that huge blind spot, most likely anything I say will be like describing the color blue to a blind newborn.

 

[SeventyOne]

Unsurprisingly, not to a dispensationalist.

I know. We just have a better understanding about it, I suppose.

 

[expos4ever]

It is in this new covenant where the Jew and the Gentile alike find the same salvation and standing before God. I've already responded to your concern.

But that is not what the text says! Again, when people gloss over what the text actually says, the alarm bells go off. Once again, note how specific the author is to the effect that the Gentile was an outsider relative to the covenant promises but is now an equal partner with the Jew:

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ

And then the author goes on to affirm that the Jew and the Gentile can be thought of as one person. How, then, can we talk of Jew-only promises.

You are not dealing with the text - it refers specifically to the covenant and its promises and clearly says the Gentile is as much a beneficiary as the Jew. You cannot, legitimately, anyway "spiritualize" this important point away.

All they see is what the scripture defines us as spiritual Israel and then assumes that completely negates the promises to physical Israel as well.

You are correct that Paul sees all believers as a new "Israel" where both Jews and Gentiles are welcome. But I am certainly not assuming that God is done with physical Israel. It is Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians 2) who says there are no covenant promises for which the Gentile is not a beneficiary. Your issue is with Paul, not me.

 

[BABerean2]

You've tried to get me to follow down this silly trail in another thread already. I don't judge who a Jew is in God's eyes. Ask Him about His criteria.

It was not a "silly trail" when John the Baptist said the following to his own people.

Mat 3:9　 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.　



The same is true when the Pharisees told Jesus that they were the seed of Abraham.
What was Christ's reponse?


Joh 8:39　 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.　
Joh 8:40　 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.　
Joh 8:41　 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God."　
Joh 8:42　 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.　
Joh 8:43　 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.　
Joh 8:44　 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
　

Do we ignore Timothy's warning below?


1Ti 1:3　 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,　
1Ti 1:4　 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.　


In Matthew chapter 21 Christ said that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit.

In 1 Peter 2:4-10 Peter reveals who is that holy nation who accepted the "chief cornerstone".

Mat 21:42　 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?　
Mat 21:43　 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.　


1Pe 2:4　 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,　
1Pe 2:5　 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.　
1Pe 2:6　 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."　
1Pe 2:7　 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"　
1Pe 2:8　 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.　
1Pe 2:9　 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;　
1Pe 2:10　 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.　

We find the fulfillment of John the Baptist's warning in the passage above.

 

[expos4ever]

Here again is part of 2 Corinthians 1:20

For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes

Those who believe there remain unfulfilled promises to "national" Israel correctly point out this text does not specifically indicate that covenantal promises are all "yes" (fulfilled) in Christ.

Fair enough but consider how this text has to be implicitly read in there are covenantal promises still on the table for Israel:

For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes, except for some major covenantal promises.

Does that sound right? Methinks not. Remember what the Old Testament is fundamentally about. It is fundamentally about God and his dealings with special people - Israel. And what is at the center of God's relation to Israel?

The covenant, with its various promises and warnings.

It is therefore quite improbable Paul has mysteriously forgotten about this major block of divine promises when he penned 2 Corinthians.

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 21 (NASB)
42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

43 "Therefore I say to you (Hebrew Nation) , the kingdom of God will be taken away from you
and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
44 "And he who falls on (trips over) this stone will be broken to pieces;
but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

When did this happen?
Or are the priests and pharisees still waiting for it to happen?

 

[parousia70]

It seems to be a common misunderstanding from covenant people that although the Jews and Gentiles who are born again makeup a 'spiritual' Israel, then that excludes the possibility of unfinished dealings with physical Israel as well. I'm not denying the spiritual Israel at all. On that, we agree. But it's a separate matter when dealing with other unfinished business with physical Israel. One did not replace the other.

Well then you have a very odd idea of Just who IS Israel.

You count the disobedient sons of Abraham as "Israel" while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham!

The mark of faithful obedience was so central to the identity of God's chosen Israel, that most major figures of the New Testament preached concerning who is reckoned as a true Israelite.

The point scripture makes is that God already saved natural Israel by saving the obedient sons of Abraham and cutting off the disobedient sons. The early Christians were Hebrews of the tribes of Israel, and they were the obedient sons. God saved "All Israel" by saving them. The same way ALL ISRAEL (the Believing remnant) was saved from the Wilderness with Moses, and ALL ISRAEL (the believing remnant) entered the Promised land.

Do we count the continuation of Physical Israel through the Wicked sons who were slain in the wilderness or through the Faithful Remnant who survived to enter the Promised Land?

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the Jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land.

We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Did you get that?

We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Scripture makes it clear that any individual can join him/herself to Christ's Israel via obedience to Messiah and His New Covenant. But there is no longer a "natural Israel," for no human on earth today knows if he/she has any genetic link to any Hebrew of bible times. Indeed today the likelyhood that everyone on earth has some Abrahamic DNA in them is 100%. However, The tribal-family system went extinct nearly 2000 years ago, at God's perfect timing when Messiah came. Once Messiah came, there was no longer any need for a racial link to father Abraham, and so the family tribes assimilated into the surrounding populations. Israel of the Messiah didn't require racial preference, and so that ancestral link was completely, forever, dissolved and passed away in human history.

Finally, in real historic terms, that means that the Nazarene Jewish sect (Acts 24:5) was the only one that survived AD 70. All the other sects---Sadducees, Essenes, Pharisees, Zealots--were destroyed and went extinct at AD 70. This is historic reality, as Jewish and secular histories admit. And it is quite remarkable that what saved the Nazarenes was their NEW covenant teaching that taught them to prepare to detach from animal sacrifices, the Temple, physical circumcision, and the priestly class of Aaron. The jews who did this survived AD 70 while the ones who clung to a salvation via the Old Covenant were all wiped out. They were ground to powder by the Chief Cornerstone, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and destroyed them. (Matthew 21:33-45)

Amazing history.

 

[Hank77]

This simply does not make sense. Paul says the Gentile is a "fellow citizen" to the Jew. What is the virtual defining characteristic of being a citizen?

Answer: common rights and privileges.

Cool, So then explain to me how that will work in the new world when there's not only Israel but 12 distinctive tribes within Israel as Jesus Himself stated would exist in Matthew 19:28.

I don't see the problem. Gentiles believers are included in the commonwealth of Israel.
It was the same in the OT under Moses' Law. Proselytes like Ruth became full citizens of the nation of Israel and became a member of one of the tribes. They had all the same rights and privileges of a natural born Israelite. These were the ones who could eat the passover. This is a shadow and they are a type of the Gentiles who would receive the Jewish Messiah as their own Redeemer, the Passover Lamb. That's us.

"Your people will be my people and your God will be my God."

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Are those promises based on a person's DNA?

If so, how many Israelite Chromosomes are required for a person to be a part of those promises?

.

There's that confusion in defining a Jew, where people argue that a Jew is one who holds to Old Testament doctrine and rejects Christ, and then that same person will treat Jewishness as a genealogical heritage. In other words, it's a religion, and it's a race, depending on what a person needs it to be for any particular discussion. The modern nation of Israel apparently defines it as a religion, as far as I can tell, though they accept wild variants of it, because one look at the Ashkenazim and the Hamitic Jews tells me that it can't be genetic purity. The Jews of Israel are far less Semitic than the Arab peoples that surround them.

So, if Jewishness is a religious thing, then we have a real problem. If they only get that title by being fundamentally flawed in their doctrine, to the point of damnation, then the Jews can never be saved, by definition. They can't ever be the chosen ones, because they must necessarily either be not chosen, or else they may be damned. If they accept Jesus Christ as their savior, then they are Christians and not Jews, and if they reject Christ, then they cannot be chosen, except by being chosen for eternal punishment. Christianity picked up the torch right where Judaism dropped it. It's all one continuous movement.

The modern nation of Israel is just a name. "Jews" were named for Judea, which was only part of the original Israel. It primarily included the tribe of Judah, plus the absorbed tribe of Benjamin and whatever Levites managed to get picked up in the mix. Israel, by namesake, was the kingdom of the north that broke away, taking all of the other tribes with it. In other words, the Jews are not Israel. That title belongs to any part of the descendants of Jacob other than the Jews.

 

[SeventyOne]

But that is not what the text says! Again, when people gloss over what the text actually says, the alarm bells go off. Once again, note how specific the author is to the effect that the Gentile was an outsider relative to the covenant promises but is now an equal partner with the Jew:

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ

And then the author goes on to affirm that the Jew and the Gentile can be thought of as one person. How, then, can we talk of Jew-only promises.

You are not dealing with the text - it refers specifically to the covenant and its promises and clearly says the Gentile is as much a beneficiary as the Jew. You cannot, legitimately, anyway "spiritualize" this important point away.


You are correct that Paul sees all believers as a new "Israel" where both Jews and Gentiles are welcome. But I am certainly not assuming that God is done with physical Israel. It is Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians 2) who says there are no covenant promises for which the Gentile is not a beneficiary. Your issue is with Paul, not me.

Again, I've already addressed this. It goes back to the huge covenant theology blind spot. I don't have an issue with Paul because Paul is talking about something completely different than the unfulfilled promises to national Israel. You want to stuff everything under the umbrella of covenant promises, and that's where you screw up.

 

[SeventyOne]

It was not a "silly trail" when John the Baptist said the following to his own people.

Mat 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.



The same is true when the Pharisees told Jesus that they were the seed of Abraham.
What was Christ's reponse?


Joh 8:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
Joh 8:41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God."
Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.


Do we ignore Timothy's warning below?


1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.


In Matthew chapter 21 Christ said that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to another nation bearing fruit.

In 1 Peter 2:4-10 Peter reveals who is that holy nation who accepted the "chief cornerstone".

Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?
Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.


1Pe 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
1Pe 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME."
1Pe 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE,"
1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Pe 2:10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

We find the fulfillment of John the Baptist's warning in the passage above.

Sorry, I don't see any of these passages answering your question of 'how many Israelite Chromosomes are required for a person to be a part of those promises'. I don't find a mention of chromosome 1 in there. Maybe you posted the wrong passages.

 

[SeventyOne]

Well then you have a very odd idea of Just who IS Israel.

You count the disobedient sons of Abraham as "Israel" while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham!

The mark of faithful obedience was so central to the identity of God's chosen Israel, that most major figures of the New Testament preached concerning who is reckoned as a true Israelite.

The point scripture makes is that God already saved natural Israel by saving the obedient sons of Abraham and cutting off the disobedient sons. The early Christians were Hebrews of the tribes of Israel, and they were the obedient sons. God saved "All Israel" by saving them. The same way ALL ISRAEL (the Believing remnant) was saved from the Wilderness with Moses, and ALL ISRAEL (the believing remnant) entered the Promised land.

Do we count the continuation of Physical Israel through the Wicked sons who were slain in the wilderness or through the Faithful Remnant who survived to enter the Promised Land?

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the Jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land.

We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Did you get that?

We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Scripture makes it clear that any individual can join him/herself to Christ's Israel via obedience to Messiah and His New Covenant. But there is no longer a "natural Israel," for no human on earth today knows if he/she has any genetic link to any Hebrew of bible times. Indeed today the likelyhood that everyone on earth has some Abrahamic DNA in them is 100%. However, The tribal-family system went extinct nearly 2000 years ago, at God's perfect timing when Messiah came. Once Messiah came, there was no longer any need for a racial link to father Abraham, and so the family tribes assimilated into the surrounding populations. Israel of the Messiah didn't require racial preference, and so that ancestral link was completely, forever, dissolved and passed away in human history.

Finally, in real historic terms, that means that the Nazarene Jewish sect (Acts 24:5) was the only one that survived AD 70. All the other sects---Sadducees, Essenes, Pharisees, Zealots--were destroyed and went extinct at AD 70. This is historic reality, as Jewish and secular histories admit. And it is quite remarkable that what saved the Nazarenes was their NEW covenant teaching that taught them to prepare to detach from animal sacrifices, the Temple, physical circumcision, and the priestly class of Aaron. The jews who did this survived AD 70 while the ones who clung to a salvation via the Old Covenant were all wiped out. They were ground to powder by the Chief Cornerstone, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and destroyed them. (Matthew 21:33-45)

Amazing history.

I've heard the reasonings and claims by covenant theology and theri claim of replacement a number of times, but it just still doesn't ever get any more accurate.

 

[BABerean2]

The modern nation of Israel is just a name. "Jews" were named for Judea, which was only part of the original Israel. It primarily included the tribe of Judah, plus the absorbed tribe of Benjamin and whatever Levites managed to get picked up in the mix. Israel, by namesake, was the kingdom of the north that broke away, taking all of the other tribes with it. In other words, the Jews are not Israel. That title belongs to any part of the descendants of Jacob other than the Jews.

I agree with a great deal of what you said in this post about genealogy.

However, in Jeremiah 31:31-34 the New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah.
This was long after the Northern Kingdom had been taken into captivity.

The New Covenant is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. There we find the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 copied word-for-word and bracketed by two verses which make it plain the New Covenant was in effect during the first century.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".
On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31.

.

 

[SeventyOne]

Here are a couple promises for starters concerning the time after the Lord returns and is seated on His throne where David will rule over Israel forever, and the Disciples over the individual tribes. The second and third ones are where the Lord also promises His sanctuary and throne will sit in the midst of Israel forever. these are promises with a duration of forever, they have to be fulfilled.

Eze 34:23-24 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the LORD; I have spoken.

Eze 37:25-28 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but I'm fairly certain that Jesus has not returned and seated on what He called His "glorious throne", and that David and the Disciples are not ruling over national Israel today and forever more. And the timeframe given by Jesus Himself is "in the new world". That sounds very future to me, and it also sounds like He knew His work on the cross wouldn't nullify what He had just told them.

Are any of you going to address these promises from post 24? Because when you do, there are a lot more we can get to. These sure sound like promises to the Jews that have yet to be fulfilled to me?

 

[BABerean2]

Sorry, I don't see any of these passages answering your question of 'how many Israelite Chromosomes are required for a person to be a part of those promises'. I don't find a mention of chromosome 1 in there.

Chromosome #1 is definitely included within the text, as well as the others to make a total of 23 pairs.
Twenty-three come from the mother and twenty-three more from the father, to make a total of 46 chromosomes.

You get a copy of chromosome #1 from your mother and another copy of chromosome #1 from your father.

At least that is what my college genetics professor would say about any ancient text which refers to human genealogy.

.

 

[klutedavid]

Supercessionism: http://christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm

https://bible.org/seriespage/session-2-church-and-israel-defense-replacement-theology

When the Hebrew Nation rejected Jesus as the Divine Messiah, its 70 weeks of weeks "clock" stopped.

See Daniel chapters 11-12.

There is only one "week"= 7 years left until all of Israel's promises/covenants are fulfilled. God keeps his "word"!!

Psalm 118:22
The stone (Jesus) which the builders (Israel) rejected has become the chief corner stone.(of the Church)

Matthew 23:37 ...Jesus' Lament over Jerusalem (Israel?)
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
How often I wanted to gather your children together,
the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and you were unwilling. (rejection of Divine Messiah)

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
" Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a costly cornerstone
for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Matthew 21 (NASB)
42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

43 "Therefore I say to you (Hebrew Nation) , the kingdom of God will be taken away from you
and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
44 "And he who falls on (trips over) this stone will be broken to pieces;
but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.


Matthew 24: Jesus' PROPHECY:... Signs: End of the Church Age ...the TRIBULATION and GREAT TRIBULATION...4-28 (NASB)
leading up to the SECOND COMING....29-31
v. 3...(Disciples...what will be the sign(s) of your (SECOND) coming and of the end of the (CHURCH) age?"

Possible Time Line BUILT primarily on Matthew 24:

1. Begin the birth of the "Church Age" of Grace...Pentecost...Acts 1 + 2

2. Jesus promises to be with us in Spirit until the "end of the age" Matthew 28: last verses
...ascends/descends from the Mount of Olives...Matt 20:20; Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11

3. Pre-Tribulation "Birth Pangs"...NOW!...Matthew 24: 4-8

4. Begin TRIBULATION...first 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years
...rise of the anti-christ + REBUILD the TEMPLE! = his appearance in that TEMPLE...Matthew 24:9-20,22
...WHEN "TRIB" begins? TIME Unknown!

5. Rapture and Second Coming...finally to a throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings . Revelation 20:6

6. Begin GREAT TRIBULATION...Last 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years...leading up to Armageddon...Matthew 24:21-27

7. Begin the Millenium Reign...Satan Bound...Revelation 20...144,000 Jewish missionaries: Messiah Has COME!

8. Planet Earth and unsaved inhabitants destroyed by fire. 2 Peter 3

8. New Heavens + New Earth + New Jerusalem = eternal spiritual realm...Revelation 21

Hello Ron.

I noticed you based your eschatology on Matthew 24.

How about basing your eschatology on Luke 21, instead.

 

[parousia70]

I've heard the reasonings and claims by covenant theology and theri claim of replacement a number of times, but it just still doesn't ever get any more accurate.

Is this seriously your rebuttal to my post?
Nothing in my post you quoted was inaccurate.

If you disagree, then show me why.
Take the scriptures I cited and show me why they don't mean what I contend, if you can.

For example, just take my assertion that "the continuation of Israel is always counted through the faithful remnant and not through the wicked sons."

Tell me why you disagree and show the scriptures that support you.

You sure seem to take umbrage when folks don't address your points specifically, but are perfectly happy to refuse to address my points specifically?

I guess it's not wrong when you do it?

 

[BABerean2]

Eze 37:25-28 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

We always get ourselves into trouble when we view the New Testament through the Old Testament, instead of vice-versa.

David was most certainly the greatest king in the history of ancient Israel.
However, we must remember that he was a man.
He was guilty of adultery and conspired to have Uriah killed so that he could have Uriah's wife. In that regard, he is a sinner just like us.

Is the passage above referring to David or to David's offspring, Jesus of Nazareth?

If we do a search on the name "David" in the New Testament, what do we find?

Mat_1:1　 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: (Here we find the most important genealogy in the Bible, based on the words of Paul in Galatians 3:16.)

Mat_1:6　 and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah.

Mat_1:17　 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

Mat_1:20　 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Mat_9:27　 When Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out and saying, "Son of David, have mercy on us!"

Mat_12:3　 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:

Mat_12:23　 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"

Mat_15:22　 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed."

Mat_20:30　 And behold, two blind men sitting by the road, when they heard that Jesus was passing by, cried out, saying, "Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!"

Mat_20:31　 Then the multitude warned them that they should be quiet; but they cried out all the more, saying, "Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!"

Mat_21:9　 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna to the Son of David! 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' Hosanna in the highest!"

Mat_21:15　 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant

Mat_22:42　 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David."

Mat_22:43　 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'LORD,' saying:

Mat_22:45　 If David then calls Him 'LORD,' how is He his Son?"

Mar_2:25　 But He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him:

Mar_10:47　 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

Mar_10:48　 Then many warned him to be quiet; but he cried out all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!"

Mar_11:10　 Blessed is the kingdom of our father David That comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!"

Mar_12:35　 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?

Mar_12:36　 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL." '

Mar_12:37　 Therefore David himself calls Him 'LORD'; how is He then his Son?" And the common people heard Him gladly.

Luk_1:27　 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Luk_1:32　 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

Luk_1:69　 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David,

Luk_2:4　 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,

Luk_2:11　 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Luk_3:31　 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David,

Luk_6:3　 But Jesus answering them said, "Have you not even read this, what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:

Luk_18:38　 And he cried out, saying, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

Luk_18:39　 Then those who went before warned him that he should be quiet; but he cried out all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!"

Luk_20:41　 And He said to them, "How can they say that the Christ is the Son of David?

Luk_20:42　 Now David himself said in the Book of Psalms: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, " SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Luk_20:44　 Therefore David calls Him 'LORD'; how is He then his Son?"

Joh_7:42　 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?"

Act_1:16　 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;

Act_2:25　 For David says concerning Him: 'I FORESAW THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE MY FACE, FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, THAT I MAY NOT BE SHAKEN.

Act_2:29　 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Act_2:34　 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Act_4:25　 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'WHY DID THE NATIONS RAGE, AND THE PEOPLE PLOT VAIN THINGS?

Act_7:45　 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David,

Act_13:22　 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I HAVE FOUND DAVID THE SON OF JESSE, A MAN AFTER MY OWN HEART, WHO WILL DO ALL MY WILL.'

Act_13:34　 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE SURE MERCIES OF DAVID.'

Act_13:36　 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;

Act_15:16　 'AFTER THIS I WILL RETURN AND WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID, WHICH HAS FALLEN DOWN; I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL SET IT UP;

Rom_1:3　 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

Rom_4:6　 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Rom_11:9　 And David says: "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RECOMPENSE TO THEM.

2Ti_2:8　 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,

Heb_4:7　 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "TODAY," after such a long time, as it has been said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

Heb_11:32　 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets:

Rev_3:7　 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "HE WHO HAS THE KEY OF DAVID, HE WHO OPENS AND NO ONE SHUTS, AND SHUTS AND NO ONE OPENS":

Rev_5:5　 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

Rev_22:16　 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."



When it comes to any "forever" land promise on this earth, we must remember that a day is coming when this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to be burned up and dissolved, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13.

We find in Hebrews 11:16 that Abraham was looking for a heavenly country and city.
I am looking for the same thing.

The covenant of peace mentioned in the passage was revealed by David's offspring at the Last Supper. In 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 Paul contrasts it to the "ministry of death written and engraved on stones", which is the Old Covenant. This New Covenant is the marriage covenant of which we are a part. It is celebrated each time we commemorate the Last Supper. We find in Hebrews 13:20 that it is the "everlasting" covenant.

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　


We know from the New Testament that Christ is the temple. He said so in His own words.
He is now the sanctuary.


Joh_2:19　 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

.

 

[expos4ever]

Again, I've already addressed this.

I doubt it - I see nothing from you that actually deals with the part of Ephesians 2 where Paul says the Gentile is now part of the covenant family and therefore as much a beneficiary of any promises as the Jew. This is fatal to your position precisely because if the Gentile is as much a recipient of covenant promises as the Jew, there can be no such thing as promises for Jews only.

If you can complete the following sentence in a coherent manner then, and only then, will you have actually dealt with the details of the text:

When Paul writes that the Gentile is no longer excluded from the covenant promises, we can still believe there are covenant promises for Jews only because _________________________.

I submit you will not be able to complete this sentence in a manner that makes any sense.

I don't have an issue with Paul because Paul is talking about something completely different than the unfulfilled promises to national Israel.

The text shows otherwise. Paul is clearly referring to the matter of covenantal promises. The relevant - and fatal to your position - fact is that Paul clearly states the Gentile is now as much a beneficiary as the Jew in respect to these promises:

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise,

....and Paul goes on to clearly state that the Gentile is now of entirely equal status with the Jew. Let's be clear about something: there is no doubt that the above text is referring to covenantal promises made to the nation of Israel. To deny this is to patently deny the plain and clear meaning of this text.

So, in contradiction to what you are saying, Paul here is clearly concerned with the status of covenant promises made to Israel.

 

[expos4ever]

About the Law of Moses: I think it is very clear from Paul that the Law of Moses is no longer in force. I also believe that Jesus strongly implied that the Law of Moses was coming to an end.

And, yes, I am aware of Matthew 5:18 - I am prepared to argue that Jesus is using a figure of speech that has generally been misunderstood.