is Charismatic TONGUES really the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[zeke37]

I have posted this before, but I feel it needs to be done again

PLEASE READ POSTS 1-2-5 BEFORE CASTING YOUR VOTE...
THX

Alternate Understanding of TONGUES
TONGUES of 1Cor14

is what we see in the charismatic circles really the gift of tongues of the bible?

but let's start here.....

i am not a cessationalist, however i don't think the "cloven tongues of fire" of Acts are seen today,
at least not that i know of.


that was a miracle of God, to kickstart the Great Commission for us...
where folks heard a message in their very own home dialect,
regardless of what dialect the person speaking it, spoke.
it was to break the language barrier and show absolute "proof" that it was from God.

no one can fake it, because "everyone listening" would bear record....
not one or two or three only...but everyone.

even in ACTS2, everyone understood the words,
even if everyone did not understand what was going on.


biblically tongues has three meanings.
it can mean the actual literal tongue
it can mean what comes out of your mouth, your words
it can mean languages


in 1Cor12/14 tongues simply means languages of men,
either the language spoken or heard is known (to the audience) or not known (to the audience).

that's why the translator's added the word "unknown" in italics
they knew the language in question was "foreign" to the audience


the "tongues" of 1Cor12/14 are grossly misinterpreted by the charismatic denoms.
it's not about a special prayer language/ecstatic utterances at all.

it's the proper rules on how to effectively spread the Word of God past all language barriers,
into all tongues of men using the gifts of God mentioned in 1Cor12

including using gifted foreign speaking believers
and gifted interpreters of langauges, (diversities of tongues/languages)
so that the speakers words could be interpreted into the audiences language
and thus understood by the audience, so they can come to God/learn of God.

my contention is that the chapter is the rules for "The Great Commission"....
spreading the Word of God to the ends of the earth, in all tongues of men

if so, then making it about charismatic prayer language/ecstatic utterances is making void the Word of God, is it not?

anyway, while those IN the practice will most likely disagree with me,
I would still hope that they would read the following few posts with an opened mind,
and perhaps God will grow the seed in them.

as for those that are not in the practice
but who think it's real, just not for them kinda thing,
or for those without an opinion yet,
I would hope to show you the truth of the chapter

after all, it's true message is probably the reason why YOU received the Word
in a language that you could understand in the first place,
so as to come to God.

it's "the Great Commission"

so feel free to comment, but please keep the entire chapter's running thought in mind when doing so.

thx, enjoy!

 

[zeke37]

Cor14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
​

the already written word = prophesy
there's lots about Messiah in the OT
for a thing to be prophesy to someone, the thing must be understood by the person listening obviously
to preach something to people so they understand it, is to prophesy to them

God gives a message, and we are to prophesy it to the people
but I am not talking about a secret message...
no, i'm talking about the "already written" Word of God that they had access to at that time

picture the setting in Corinth....
there is not a church on every corner...folks travelled to get to church
there's only the one in the area.

the setting is a multi-lingual church assembly...
many different people there, all speaking many different languages/dialects
and all eager to either learn or share the Word
but there was confusion while doing so....

so Paul corrects them, over and over again about the same thing.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
​

by example;
if a Greek man speaks the gospel in the Greek tongue,
to an englishman who does not understand Greek,
then he'd be preaching to only God...
it's a negative, not a positive. it's in vain.

even tho the greek man is in the Spirit and speaking about God
his words are a mystery to the Englishman
the speaker's knowledge is not exchanged

instead of edifying the englishman in the Lord,
the Grek man's tongue/language/words would be unintelligible babble

only God would understand the greek man, instead of the englishman,
and the point was to edify the englishman.(the crowd)

it is a negative not a positive

but if that tongue is understood, whether by birth / learned / translator / or supernatural,
then those words about Christ can become prophesy to the one listening

otherwise, you're speaking to God/the air/the wind/yourself...
and that is not the point of the chapter at all

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
​

the positive above, if it's understood, then it's prophesy and thus folks can be edified.
this is a repeating theme in the chapter, that gets even easier to understand as we go on.
there was mass confusion here at Corinth, no order at all,
and Paul is correcting them by examples.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
​

the negative first;
if the tongue you speak is unknown to the audience,
then you'r only speaking to yourself (as in verse 2, to God only, or verse 9, to the air)

the positive after
if that tongue is understood, then your words edify the church

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
​

if we all spoke all tongue of man, then that would be great
but we dont so those words need to be interpreted to the audience
so that those words can become prophesy to them
so the audience can be edified

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you,
​

that's the negative
example, if Paul spoke in Hebrew, to those in Corinth, what profit is there?
most of them only understand their own certain dialect of Greek

except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
​

that is the positive
the words must be understood to be revelation / knowledge / understood prophesyand become doctrine to those in attendance

his words must be understood to be of any value
so he's not going to speak in Hebrew to them, if they can't understand it

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
​

the negative ^^

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
​

explained much the same way as i explained it above
this a repeated pattern, over and over again
speak into the air is like verse 2's speak unto God, or to yourself in verse 4...
a bad thing if you were supposed to edify the audience.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
​

again
if we speak and hear babble, then it will sound like babble
this refers to gentile tongues/languages.

if we were to speak Greek to an Englishman, the Englishman here's barbarian speech

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
​

edify the church by them understanding your words.
remember that this is a multi-lingual gentile nation.
folks gathered there to share scriptures and the stories of Christ, and to praise God

they had new folks there as most churches today do

it evidently was mass confusion because there was no order
ie. the greek man preaching in greek, to a crowd filled with a multitude of people
speaking different tongues/languages/dialects than each other...

people talking over one another etc
probably 10 sermons going on all at once...in ten different dialects
wow what a headache
mass confusion

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
​

that he (his greek words) may be interpreted by another in attendance
someone who is a believer, that also who speaks one or more of the crowds tongue/language

having an orderly way to spread the Good News is paramount

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
​

if I pray out loud, to an audience in my ie. native greek language
and that audience doesn't understand greek
then even tho i am in the Spirit, even tho i'm speaking the Good News of Christ,
the fruit i am trying to produce is unfruitfull to the audience
they just can't understand.
it's like us, who don't understand Latin, getting anything out of a Sermon from the Vatican
it's not understood...barbarian speech to us

so what should we do?
how do we get our message across language barriers?

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
​

can't be more plain
pray with the Spirit AND understanding

if you are there to edify the church,
then your words must be understood by those listening

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
​

we have to understand the words to have the desired response to them

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
​

you speaking greek to a culturally diverse audience, you might give thanks to God well,
but the much of the audience would'nt know it

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
​

Paul spoke many languages that we know of
He was a Roman citizen, a Hebrew, tribe of Ben, house of Judah
God chose him to travel around for the gentiles
he was a linguist
and his speaking multiple tongues/languages was a reason why he was chosen

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
​

even though he speaks many different languages
speaking 1000's of words in greek to an english audience, would accomplish nothing
he'd rather speak 5 words that they'd understand than 1000 that they don't
it is paramount that the audience understand his (our) words so they can come to God.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Perhaps you could define "charismatic circles definition of tongues"? I answered your previous poll/post on this, so I won't here. But perhaps your 'take' on what that definition is would clear up confusion for the purpose of the poll.

I answered "not sure" based on the ambiguity of the question.

ETA: I know I said I wasn't going to address anything. I lied. . Before I responded, you added a bit that I want to addres. You stated:

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
the negative first;
if the tongue you speak is unknown to the audience,
then you'r only speaking to yourself (as in verse 2, to God only, or verse 9, to the air)

You may have misapplied this portion of the verse a bit. There is not quite a negative spin here. Quite the opposite. Paul said "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself". He is not merely "speaking to himself" as you have suggested. How is that a negative? Since I know you are opposed to the concept of a Charismatic 'prayer language' (i.e. a spoken language that is not an 'earthly' dialect') I will leave the concept alone in this thread. As a former Oneness Pentecostal I have seen to many abuses of the 'tongues' issue. However, I do see the point that edification of the church is the greater good.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

I answered No.

To me speaking in tongues is uttering a foreign language with the purpose of spreading the gospel.

Not just a few hallelujah hobidy bobidy boos.

 

[zeke37]

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
​

hebrew greek latin english french german, etc YOU AND I

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
​

tongues, here, means interpreted tongues
the Good News spreading from one langauge into another
that edifies them that believe not (yet)

but if those words are translated into their language
and when one understands those words, it's a sign to God for them
they can understand, thus come to Him

it is NOT a sign for those that ALREADY believe,
because they don't need the Word translated for them.
they already know.

but prophesy = understood OT prophesy about Christ (in this case),
and if the audience understands the truthful words spoken
it becomes prophesy to them too,
as it is with the speaker who brought it to their attention

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
​

the ie. is that there are many different tongues/languages represented under one roof
if there was no order, and people just started to preach in what ever tongue was their own
it would do the others who did not understand their tongue no good,
and even confuse those who were new/unlearned/searching

they'll think you're nuts

imagine ten people, speaking ten different languages,
all preaching at the exact same time,
over each other...causing confusion obviously.

Paul is trying to show them that they need order
especially when going from one language to another with the Good News
and trying to win folks to Christ

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

​

if what is preached/sung/prayed is understood by the new guy,
then that's prophesy, and the unlearned can learn.

everyone in attendance can agree, meaning multiple witnesses to the truth of what is said
one must understand the invitation to open themselves to God fully

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
​

Paul admonishes them here
ie. the speaker and audience speak different languages, and only have one church
and they wish to (are commissioned to) share what they have learned/read
and spread the gospel to the ends of the earth
they are zealous to do so, but there are rules to follow

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
​

it's ok to speak Hebrew to them,
but make sure your Hebrew words are interpreted by an interpreter
that speaks their language and yours
so the crowd can understand and be edified

from the Hebrew message, translated to Greek,
and then maybe even from Greek to English,
just have more than one interpreter with you

but not too many...maybe 2 or 3 tongues, but not ALL
we can't go interpreting one verse, in 20 diff languages right then and there.
that would be confusing and loose the flow.

so not too many interpreters at one time tho
Hebrew to greek, to english, to french
ok, but stop there, otherwise it would become too confusing

one preacher preaching,
maybe two or three different speaking interpreters interpreting,
that understand the preachers words,
each in turn interpreting to the multi-lingual congregation
so all can come to God

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
​

if no one there speaks chineese, not even any interpreters
then don't confuse the congregation by giving your testimony in chineese
it would mean nothing to them, and sound like babble

and if you only speak Chinese, but your neighbour speaks both Greek and Chinese,
then don't ask him for an explanation right then and there

wait till after so you won't interrupt or confuse the others.

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
​

as above
two or three at a time
so as not to confuse the audience...
they have to judge if what you say is right or wrong

this is speaking about anyone wanting to preach the Good News
sharing the Good News with others, be they believers or not,

then that means if they judge what you say to be true,
then they can learn about God, or even come to God

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
​

if you understand one of the translated languages, or the original, but your brethren beside you does not
don't explain it to him right there and then...
as you might miss the message and disrupt others listening around you

wait until your alone later, to explain it to your neighbour,
so you continue to hear the entire message and you won't disrupt anyone else there

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
​

God does not author confusion

this chapter is just not about charismatic tongues at all.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
​

don't explain things in the middle of the service as that would disrupt things.
plus i think there was another contending "religion" female based,
that Paul was contending with at Corinth.

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
​

the Word of God is not for anyone alone
and certainly not like it is presented with regards to charismatic tongues

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
​

travelling around and spreading the Word is not limited to Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, but rather it is for all tongues

it's ok to spread His message to others in a foreign tongue
as long as your words are translated for them, into their tongue
now, that may seem a tad obvious today,
but that is what the entire chapter is /was about back then.

it is not about charismatic tongue,
and making it such makes void the word of God
that the chapter contains about the great commission

as I've said before, folks followed this advice in this chapter
and most, if not all of us at this forum, came to God through the proper execution of this chapter.

Christian missionaries abroad still use this proper method today,
as is easily seen on many youtube channels and tv stations

 

[zeke37]

Perhaps you could define "charismatic circles definition of tongues"? I answered your previous poll/post on this, so I won't here. But perhaps your 'take' on what that definition is would clear up confusion for the purpose of the poll.

I answered "not sure" based on the ambiguity of the question.

well, I think folks know what is meant by that question.
the charismatic churches "speaking in tongues/praying in tongues"
vs what the bible actually says about tongues of 1Cor14

ETA: I know I said I wasn't going to address anything. I lied. . Before I responded, you added a bit that I want to addres. You stated:



You may have misapplied this portion of the verse a bit. There is not quite a negative spin here. Quite the opposite. Paul said "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself". He is not merely "speaking to himself" as you have suggested. How is that a negative?

I did not misapply the verse Brother.
the charismatic churches do, and those of like minds, hence this thread

he was supposed to EDIFY THOSE IN ATTENDANCE, not himself
he already knows what he is there to preach

and if it's something NEW that he is reading aloud for the first time,
if no one else there speaks his language, then he's only edifying himself.

that's a negative if your the speaker, speaking to the church assembly.

again, I asked that any commenters keep the entire chapters main point,
it's running point, in mind when commenting,
but you did not, as is very obvious by your answer

Since I know you are opposed to the concept of a Charismatic 'prayer language' (i.e. a spoken language that is not an 'earthly' dialect') I will leave the concept alone in this thread. As a former Oneness Pentecostal I have seen to many abuses of the 'tongues' issue. However, I do see the point that edification of the church is the greater good.

complete nonsense

 

[zeke37]

I answered No.

To me speaking in tongues is uttering a foreign language with the purpose of spreading the gospel.

Not just a few hallelujah hobidy bobidy boos.

yep. me too

 

[ImaginaryDay]

nm. Have your party...

 

[zeke37]

So, no clarification of what you mean by "charismatic circles definition of tongues"?

listen, you know exactly what I mean.
you said...

Since I know you are opposed to the concept of a Charismatic 'prayer language' (i.e. a spoken language that is not an 'earthly' dialect') I will leave the concept alone in this thread. As a former Oneness Pentecostal I have seen to many abuses of the 'tongues' issue. However, I do see the point that edification of the church is the greater good.

​

please read the chapter breakdown I provided, before commenting further.
thx

 

[zeke37]

nm. Have your party...

tell me what other gift of the Spirit is about self gratification?
none? well!

 

[ImaginaryDay]

well, I think folks know what is meant by that question.
the charismatic churches "speaking in tongues/praying in tongues"
vs what the bible actually says about tongues of 1Cor14

Many people don't. That's why I asked you for clarification. If you want to be rude to Charismatics and misrepresent them, that's your business, but at least have a running definition.

I did not misapply the verse Brother.
the charismatic churches do, and those of like minds, hence this thread

You are clearly misapplying the verse because Paul is addressing an issue that has to do with no interpreter being present. In this case he admonishes the believer to keep silent and PRAY TO HIMSELF. It is repeated later. These are instructions for corporate and PRIVATE tongues in the chapter.

he was supposed to EDIFY THOSE IN ATTENDANCE, not himself

Then why the line about "edifying himself"? Fail...

and if it's something NEW that he is reading aloud for the first time,
if no one else there speaks his language, then he's only edifying himself.

NOW you're catching on...

that's a negative if your the speaker, speaking to the church assembly.

Right. But he's NOT speaking to the assembly, he's speaking to, and edifying, himself. Stay with it, you'll get it.

again, I asked that any commenters keep the entire chapters main point,
it's running point, in mind when commenting,
but you did not, as is very obvious by your answer

The main, running point is instruction in prophecy and tongues. Corporate and private. I have studied this stuff for twelve years. Backward and forward. In and out. I know the true and false about it. I've scoured every INCH of these chapters. Now we can do this respectfully or not. Your choice.

complete nonsense

Apparently you choose 'not'.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

tell me what other gift of the Spirit is about self gratification?
none? well!

Tongues is not about self-gratification. It is about edification of the church. But my apologies. I will leave your thread alone.

 

[Eliwho]

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
​

if you understand one of the translated languages, or the original, but your brethren beside you does not
don't explain it to him right there and then...
as you might miss the message and disrupt others listening around you

wait until your alone later, to explain it to your neighbour,
so you continue to hear the entire message and you won't disrupt anyone else there

No, what this means is that if I'm sitting by and something comes to me, I may stand up and speak.
The spirit is not making these other prophets not have control of their actions.
They are to shut up and listen.
This goes for ole Arnie too.

 

[zeke37]

Many people don't. That's why I asked you for clarification. If you want to be rude to Charismatics and misrepresent them, that's your business, but at least have a running definition.

I was not being rude.
you already knew what I meant,
as is evident by the part of your post I already highlighted
which contained exactly what I meant, and what you meant.

so there was no confusion.

iow, is what YOU DO, if your charismatic, actually biblical in regards to tongues?

You are clearly misapplying the verse because Paul is addressing an issue that has to do with no interpreter being present.

i did not misrepresent it
I asked you to continue to keep the entire chapters point in mind....
the setting...
what was going on...
what Paul was doing...

but you can't because it rips away your dogma

the core teaching of this chapter is Paul giving the Corinthians the basic rules
that allow for the great commission to be accomplished

the Good News is to be spread among all tongues of men.
and we are not to keep it in our own language only, as so many in the past have.

all men shall get the opportunity to believe, regardless of what tongue they speak


Paul was saying, by example;
if you speak Hebrew to a Greek audience,
and Hebrew is an unknown tongue to them,
then you'd only be edifying yourself

only God would be able to understand you, and that was not the point at all.
the point was to edify those in attendance.

this is a repeated teaching in the chapter. verse 4, verse 9...

In this case he admonishes the believer to keep silent and PRAY TO HIMSELF. It is repeated later. These are instructions for corporate and PRIVATE tongues in the chapter.

pathetic....exactly the bunk I am trying to defeat...
corporate vs private ecstatic utterances...pffffff...ya right


you make void the Word of God,
because this chapter is not about that at all.
it's about the Great Commission's rules on effective spreading THE GOOD NEWS,
to the tongues of ANY man, regardless of the language said man speaks/understands

you guys and gals have turned paul's etaching into a mockery
when it is in fact BY THIS METHOD that you prob received the Good News
as most of us do not speak or read Old Greek

this is how that same Good News eventually got into English tongues.
think about every Christian Missionary that goes abroad to do the same.
they follow this chapter, because that is the way it is to be done.

stop making void the Word of God, and making a mockery of the Spiritual Gifts

Then why the line about "edifying himself"? Fail...

not fail,
but you fail if you cannot see what Paul is saying, over and over again.


if you are there to edify the church,
then don't speak in a tongue that they cannot understand, without a translator
or else your only edifying yourself.

it's all about order, and not bringing confusion into the church

Right. But he's NOT speaking to the assembly, he's speaking to, and edifying, himself. Stay with it, you'll get it.

but your wrong...he IS speaking to the assembly.
that's what the whole chapter is about.
that is where the letter was read to...
the assembly.

come on, you can stay with it, right?

The main, running point is instruction in prophecy and tongues.

it is apparent you don't understand either of those words with regards to 1Cor14

Corporate and private. I have studied this stuff for twelve years. Backward and forward. In and out. I know the true and false about it. I've scoured every INCH of these chapters. Now we can do this respectfully or not. Your choice.

always respectfully, but your scholarship means nothing to me.
the length of time you study or studied means nothing to me
stop boasting about yourself and let's get down to it

here's what I see so far...

you have 100% misunderstood Paul's point completely
you do not understand the chapter at all because of what you have already said in this thread.
you make void the word of God, by teaching such
you do not understand what the words "tongues and prophesy" mean

no disrespect menat Brother.
we are here to edify each other, and you need it in this subject big time?

Apparently you choose 'not'.

you are already dead set against, and your attitude will reflect.
i'm dead set against your understanding, so mine will to prob.
the choice is yours whether you want to converse here in this thread.

Tongues is not about self-gratification. It is about edification of the church. But my apologies. I will leave your thread alone.

you just said it was for both private and corporate
which is it?
if it's private, how is that not self edifying?
doesn't really matter what your answer is,
because your whole understanding of the chapter is completely wrong.

No, what this means is that if I'm sitting by and something comes to me, I may stand up and speak.

lol, that's the mentality that I am fighting against...
complete misunderstanding of the chapter

you too make void the Word of God,
because 1Cor14 is about the rules for accomplishing the Great Commission
not about your circle's fantasy

The spirit is not making these other prophets not have control of their actions.

what?

They are to shut up and listen.

who?

This goes for ole Arnie too.

what does arnie have to do with anything?
I did not get this from arnie

 

[ImaginaryDay]

No, what this means is that if I'm sitting by and something comes to me, I may stand up and speak.

You mean Paul said THAT? Amazing that you can read...

 

[zeke37]

Paul doesn't say that at all. lol.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Paul doesn't say that at all. lol.

^^^ What happens when you study with an agenda.

 

[Rev Randy]

What is a Charismatic circle?
Charisma is a word so horribly misused.
Now if this is what you speak of....then no.
Speaking in Tongues Real Vs Fake - YouTube

 

[katherine2001]

Rev Randy, we are so happy to see you back!

 

[zeke37]

^^^ What happens when you study with an agenda.

what happens when one is indoctrinated with trash?
Charismatic tongues, making VOID the Word of God about the Great Commission