Albion

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Ah but if you believe the lie your faith is not in Christ at least not the true Christ but a phantom of your own making, your own personal jesus a false christ a ANTI Christ
I think that such a statement is wrong--as it stands, that is.

For example, if I believe that Christ had brothers and sisters, while you believe that he had none, the last thing I would conclude is that you aren't a fellow Christian! However, if you were convinced that Christ was not God in the flesh but only a prophet who, to be sure, taught all the same things that we find in the Bible that Jesus taught, that would be a different matter. But those are two extreme examples.

I was forced to be a little less precise in my earlier post than would have been ideal, and that was because it was meant to be straightforward without a lot of exceptions, that's right. We should not get carried away with that and miss the point. :)
 
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The Grouch

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Oh i am not saying anyone isnt a Christian but a christian has become such a broad term. Your example calls into question a infallible teaching on Our Ladies perpetual virginity by his pure and spotless bride the apostolic church so this teaching comes from God/Christ/Holy Ghost and to reject it is to reject divine truth who is christ himself and christ said anyone who rejects me rejects the one who sent me. I.e the rejection of God himself. I mean we arnt playing a game of semantics here there are souls in jepordy we all know that God sends no one to hell, we send ourselves to hell by the rejection of God the rejection of christ rejection of the fullness of truth those are the stakes.
 
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Denadii

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Recently, someone told me that Catholicism is the only true faith, and that Protestants are heretics and may go to hell. When I told him I didn't pray to Mary and the Saints, he got quiet and claimed that Jesus' disciples and the first Christians were really Catholics. He claimed that anyone who rejects any kind of doctrine is a heretic. Thoughts? I don't believe him, but part of me questions if he is right? It doesn't make sense that someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God, rose from the dead, and keeps His commandments would not go to heaven because he was not a Catholic. It kind of upset me, actually.

BTW, not sure where to put this thread, so sorry if it is in the wrong place.
Don't worry about it. Its a Romanist doctrine and not at all true. They say Peter was the first pope based onMatthew 16:17-19 (KJV)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Yes Peter means a stone but....What is the ROCK? Who is the Chief cornerstone? You know that in building with stone, a corner stone is laid first. Square and straight. The rest of the building is built on this corner stone.

Ephesians 2:20

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
So the Romanist church fed people this line about Peter being the foundation of the church, hoping we would forget about the other verses. So then the Romanist church is built on a base of MAN and not GOD. Which kind of church do you prefer?
Then the Romanist church puts a man as an intermediary between man and God but God said there is one mediator and its not a man. Well a man but...a very specific man.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Romanist pope did not give himself as a ransom for anybody. He just wants control of everybody.

One thing that you do want to keep in mind though.....There are born again believers in every religion. Some stay in their religion until God moves them out of it, others like myself dump the old religion completely and start fresh. For me....I saw far too much hypocrisy and outright lies in my old religion, and would not stand for another minute of being associated with it. Shake the dust off my boots and go on. But that's me. What other people do is between them and God. And one more thing...I for one, would NEVER presume to condemn anybody to hell for believing different from me. I was not able to save me, but Jesus could and did. Jesus is able to save anybody who looks to Him.
 
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Denadii

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Luther is famously associated with the concept of Sola Fide, and many people assume that this includes OSAS. It does not.

Likewise, it does not appear to be the case that Luther himself believed in OSAS.
What's OSAS?
 
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Denadii

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Jesus leads to salvation with and through the Church, because the Church is His Body, His mystical presence on earth. We shouldn't divide the Head and the Body in our theology. The Church is not only invisible. So it's not about "salvation through a denomination or a group". The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

If you look at the early Church, no there were no "many first church groups". That is not historical. There were some people who proclaimed heresies like denying the divinity of Christ. Christians got together in Councils and condemned them. These Christians did not believe as Protestants.

Some examples...

In this quote, St Irenaeus, says that he knows he's in the true Church (unlike the heretics he mentions) BECAUSE of Apostolic Succession, that is the succession of Bishops from the Apostles. This is still held in the Catholic Church but not in Protestantism. CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

St Irenaeus died in 202 AD. He lived basically right after the Apostles.

Because of Apostolic Succession, you can see other things in the early Church Fathers like the Mass, the Sacraments, priesthood, etc. We see devotion to Our Blessed Mother and the Catholic view of salvation. There were not many groups of Christians, they all believed this way. The groups that didn't, denied things like the divinity of Christ - these were heretics, and Protestants would disagree with many of them too.
 
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Denadii

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I hope you don't mind? I have a question for you. Or any Romanist.
Why is it that you worship a God whom you kill daily? Jesus was crucified once for the sins of mankind. So why does the Romanist church insist on killing Him again daily? No....This is not a shot at you or anybody else. I would simply like to know. This verse is from the Romanist bible.

Hebrews 9:27-28Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:

28 So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.
 
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The Grouch

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I hope you don't mind? I have a question for you. Or any Romanist.
Why is it that you worship a God whom you kill daily? Jesus was crucified once for the sins of mankind. So why does the Romanist church insist on killing Him again daily? No....This is not a shot at you or anybody else. I would simply like to know. This verse is from the Romanist bible.

Hebrews 9:27-28Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:

28 So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.

Is this an honest question and would you accept the explination or just reject it and continue to think this is actually what happens in the "romanish" church?
 
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Denadii

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Is this an honest question and would you accept the explination or just reject it and continue to think this is actually what happens in the "romanish" church?
Its called 'The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass' because Jesus is crucified each mass. You give me your explanation and let's see if it lines up with scripture. Is that acceptable?
 
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The Grouch

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Don't worry about it. Its a Romanist doctrine and not at all true. They say Peter was the first pope based onMatthew 16:17-19 (KJV)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Yes Peter means a stone but....What is the ROCK? Who is the Chief cornerstone? You know that in building with stone, a corner stone is laid first. Square and straight. The rest of the building is built on this corner stone.

Ephesians 2:20

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
So the Romanist church fed people this line about Peter being the foundation of the church, hoping we would forget about the other verses. So then the Romanist church is built on a base of MAN and not GOD. Which kind of church do you prefer?
Then the Romanist church puts a man as an intermediary between man and God but God said there is one mediator and its not a man. Well a man but...a very specific man.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Romanist pope did not give himself as a ransom for anybody. He just wants control of everybody.

One thing that you do want to keep in mind though.....There are born again believers in every religion. Some stay in their religion until God moves them out of it, others like myself dump the old religion completely and start fresh. For me....I saw far too much hypocrisy and outright lies in my old religion, and would not stand for another minute of being associated with it. Shake the dust off my boots and go on. But that's me. What other people do is between them and God. And one more thing...I for one, would NEVER presume to condemn anybody to hell for believing different from me. I was not able to save me, but Jesus could and did. Jesus is able to save anybody who looks to Him.

First off your confusing your greek, hebrew and aramaic


You are petros (stone) and on this petra (rock) i will build my church

Petra is feminine so the greek writers used the term petros for peter. But the thing is Jesus would of used neither petros or petra as he spoke aramaic he would of used Cephas meaning Rock

You are cephas (rock) and upon this cephas (rock) i will build my church

Both John & Paul in scripture refer to peter as Cephas which means Rock

Also jesus is pointing to issiah 22 that he is fullfilling this prophecy so to understand what jesus is doing/saying we need to look at this prophecy

"This is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says: “Go, say to this steward, to Shebna the palace administrator:
16 What are you doing here and who gave you permission to cut out a grave for yourself here, hewing your grave on the height and chiseling your resting place in the rock?
17 “Beware, the LORD is about to take firm hold of you and hurl you away, you mighty man.
18 He will roll you up tightly like a ball and throw you into a large country. There you will die and there the chariots you were so proud of will become a disgrace to your master’s house.
19 I will depose you from your office, and you will be ousted from your position.
20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah.
21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah.
22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat of honor for the house of his father.
24 All the glory of his family will hang on him"

Jesus is fullfilling the old covenanat and establishing the new and everlasting covenant and is taking away the authortiy of the jewish authoritys and handing it over to a new administrator simon/cephas as seat of honour upon whom all the glory of christians hang on
 
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Denadii

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First off your confusing your greek, hebrew and aramaic


You are petros (stone) and on this petra (rock) i will build my church

Petra is feminine so the greek writers used the term petros for peter. But the thing is Jesus would of used neither petros or petra as he spoke aramaic he would of used Cephas meaning Rock

You are cephas (rock) and upon this cephas (rock) i will build my church

Both John & Paul in scripture refer to peter as Cephas which means Rock

Also jesus is pointing to issiah 22 that he is fullfilling this prophecy so to understand what jesus is doing/saying we need to look at this prophecy

"This is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says: “Go, say to this steward, to Shebna the palace administrator:
16 What are you doing here and who gave you permission to cut out a grave for yourself here, hewing your grave on the height and chiseling your resting place in the rock?
17 “Beware, the LORD is about to take firm hold of you and hurl you away, you mighty man.
18 He will roll you up tightly like a ball and throw you into a large country. There you will die and there the chariots you were so proud of will become a disgrace to your master’s house.
19 I will depose you from your office, and you will be ousted from your position.
20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah.
21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah.
22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat of honor for the house of his father.
24 All the glory of his family will hang on him"

Jesus is fullfilling the old covenanat and establishing the new and everlasting covenant and is taking away the authortiy of the jewish authoritys and handing it over to a new administrator simon/cephas as seat of honour upon whom all the glory of christians hang on

There is a sample of what I said...You ignore the verses I gave, and base a doctrine on one single verse, contradicting the bible for the sake of that doctrine.
 
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The Grouch

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Its called 'The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass' because Jesus is crucified each mass. You give me your explanation and let's see if it lines up with scripture. Is that acceptable?


I am saying that is not what happens at mass if i explain what is happening will you accept at least that is what catholics believe i am not asking you to accept it as true teaching just that is what catholics believe because catholics do not believe that we are scaraficing christ over and over again... or will you continue to bare false witness against us?
 
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Albion

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Oh i am not saying anyone isnt a Christian but a christian has become such a broad term. Your example calls into question a infallible teaching on Our Ladies perpetual virginity by his pure and spotless bride the apostolic church so this teaching comes from God/Christ/Holy Ghost

It might call into question the belief of a couple of denominations out of the thousands of Christian churches that exist, yes. However, it was just an example given to show that it matters ON WHAT we differ as Christians. And even if we were to consider it infallibly correct, are you prepared to say that all those people who belong to Christian churches that do not accept this doctrine are, as a consequence, not Christians? Most Christians, I am sure, would not.
 
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The Grouch

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There is a sample of what I said...You ignore the verses I gave, and base a doctrine on one single verse, contradicting the bible for the sake of that doctrine.

I quote the old testiment too and put what jesus is saying into context for you... how is that contradicting the bible
 
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Denadii

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I am saying that is not what happens at mass if i explain what is happening will you accept at least that is what catholics believe i am not asking you to accept it as true teaching just that is what catholics believe because catholics do not believe that we are scaraficing christ over and over again... or will you continue to bare false witness against us?
I can accept that its what Catholics believe.
 
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The Grouch

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It might call into question the belief of one denomination out of the thousands of Christian churches that exist, yes. However, it was just an example given to show that it matters ON WHAT we differ as Christians.

Most of the issues that divide the denominations are not significant enough for anyone to call the other side non-Christian yet we have to admit that there are some.

Truth is that so long as your baptised even if you dont believe your still a christian, a persons lack of faith does not invalidate the sacrament of baptism. But baptism is only valid because baptism is a sacrament that can be carried out by any baptised person and not just a minister of the church. Whoever is baptised is baptised a catholic even if they believe that or not their lack of faith does not invalidate the sacrament
 
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Denadii

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I quote the old testiment too and put what jesus is saying into context for you... how is that contradicting the bible
The doctrine that Peter was made the first administrator or pope contradicts the other scriptures
 
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The Grouch

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I can accept that its what Catholics believe.

Catholics believe at mass that we cut through the vail of time into the eternal. Christs sacrafice was the once and for all time eternal sacrafice. At mass we do not re sacrafice christ again or over and over again. Rather we are present at the foot of the cross and at the resurection at the very moment christ gave his life we then litterally eat his flesh and drink his blood so that we may share in his ressurection
 
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The Grouch

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The doctrine that Peter was made the first administrator or pope contradicts the other scriptures

These are christs own words... he his giving simon the authority to be the administrator... he is pointing out that he (christ) is fullfilling issiahs prophecy in so doing... i dont know how you fail to see this... its absolutly clear to me... do you deny jesus is referencing issiah???
 
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Albion

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Truth is that so long as your baptised even if you dont believe your still a christian, a persons lack of faith does not invalidate the sacrament of baptism.
This isn't true. Such a person would carry the valid baptism for life, yes, but he could certainly renounce Christianity altogether and become, for example, an atheist or a Moslem.

That would make him apostate, as we say, and no longer a Christian, his baptism notwithstanding.

But we are getting way off the subject now by reciting doctrines for no particular reason.
 
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