Is Catholicism Correct?

[samir]

The fact that they have a priest, is in direct rejection of Jesus being our one and only Priest.

No it's not. Historical Christian bibles say they're priests in the church founded by Jesus. After Luther and his followers rebelled against the catholic church, they created a new bible and removed all references to priests in the New Testament because their new traditions were opposed to ministerial priesthood. I don't believe in subjecting scripture to man-made traditions.

Look up the history of Christmas, and how it got it's name. Catholic church.

Then look up the "god" that's born on December 25th. It's a god, but it's not our God. The Catholic church made this change to suit and attract more pagans into the church. If you don't believe me, do the research yourself and prove me wrong.

I'm aware of the Roman Saturnalia/winter solstice celebration. That the Catholic church chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus around the same time does not make Christmas a pagan holiday.

 

[samir]

How do your personal interpretation of whatever books you don't reject is correct? Do you think the Holy Spirit personally guides you so that you can never be wrong?

By testing it to scripture. If there is a contradiction, you're misunderstanding something. Having a priest (the main focal point of catholicism) is in direct contradiction of a strong faith in our Savior. That's just one aspect of catholicism, just one.

I used to believe there weren't any priests in the New Testament church but I tested it with pre-16th century scripture and learned the church Jesus founded has priests. I also learned that justification by faith alone was a false doctrine because it contradicted John 5, Gal 5, 1Cor 6, James 2, and dozens of other verses. Since I've tested it with scripture, does that mean I can't be wrong?

 

[samir]

Do you think the Holy Spirit personally guides you so that you can never be wrong?

Yes!

I guess there is no point in arguing anything with you since you can never be wrong.

 

[Devin P]

I used to believe there weren't any priests in the New Testament church but I tested it with pre-16th century scripture and learned the church Jesus founded has priests. I also learned that justification by faith alone was a false doctrine because it contradicted John 5, Gal 5, 1Cor 6, James 2, and dozens of other verses. Since I've tested it with scripture, does that mean I can't be wrong?

with pre-16th century scripture? all scripture is pre-16th century scripture. Jesus wouldn't contradict Himself.

He's our only priest that is needed. Before Him, it was just the sons of Aaron, of the tribe of Levi. Now, it's Jesus, of the tribe of Judah.

But, just as before, when those who tried to replace those who God ordained for the priesthood (Aaron and his sons), they died. God's wrath swallowed them whole, because it wasn't intended. Why? Because only who God ordains as a priest can be so. Just as it was then, it is now. Except for one difference. Instead of men being our priests, Jesus is now our Priest. He's in heaven, mediating for all of us.

There is no point of an earthly priest. Why? Because, he doesn't need to mediate for you or me. Is it good to pray to the Father, through Jesus for other people? Yes. But, if one seeks forgiveness, since God desires relationships, that one shouldn't rely on the faith of another, they should seek out that connection with the Father on their own, because that's what He wants.

 

[Devin P]

I guess there is no point in arguing anything with you since you can never be wrong.

You're not arguing with me, because my beliefs come straight from scripture. It's very clear that there are no priests aside from Jesus. No one has answered the fact with scripture, as to why it's acceptable for men to be priests, when it's clear that Jesus is our only Priest.

If you read through Torah, you'll see that when God ordains a priest, there is to be no other to seek that priesthood. It's being kept, by Jesus.

 

[Devin P]

No it's not. Historical Christian bibles say they're priests in the church founded by Jesus. After Luther and his followers rebelled against the catholic church, they created a new bible and removed all references to priests in the New Testament because their new traditions were opposed to ministerial priesthood. I don't believe in subjecting scripture to man-made traditions.

Can you share the scriptures?

I'm aware of the Roman Saturnalia/winter solstice celebration. That the Catholic church chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus around the same time does not make Christmas a pagan holiday.[/QUOTE]

Not "around" the same date. It's on the same exact literal date. Even the same traditions were kept. The yule log, the 12 days of christmas song that references the length of the original festival, the holy (leaves/branches), the mistletoe, even the evergreen tree. Granted, they didn't cut down the evergreen trees whole, but they still cut down branches and brought them in, because it represented fertility in almost all pagan civilizations because mid-winter it's the only green thing left, but I digress.

 

[samir]

You're not arguing with me, because my beliefs come straight from scripture. It's very clear that there are no priests aside from Jesus. No one has answered the fact with scripture, as to why it's acceptable for men to be priests, when it's clear that Jesus is our only Priest.

If you read through Torah, you'll see that when God ordains a priest, there is to be no other to seek that priesthood. It's being kept, by Jesus.

It's clear to me there are priests in the New Testament church. My belief comes straight from scripture so you must be confused.

 

[samir]

Can you share the scriptures?

Acts 14:22 - "And when they had ordained to them priests in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed."

1Timothy 4:14 - "Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood."

1Timothy 5:17 - "Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine"

1Timothy 5:19 - "Against a priest receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses."

Titus 1:4-5 - "To Titus my beloved son, according to the common faith, grace and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Saviour. For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city"

James 5:14 - "Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

All verses are quoted from the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

 

[Devin P]

Acts 14:22 - "And when they had ordained to them priests in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed."

This isn't important, but it's Acts 14:23**

Also, "priests" is the word elders. It's translated from the greek word "presbuteros" - which means elders, or advanced in life.

1Timothy 4:14 - "Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood."

It says neglect not the grace that is in us, which was given to us by prophesy. Was it prophesied that man would give us grace? What priesthood is it talking about? The priesthood that man keeps? Because think about this, if man could run a priesthood that was sufficient enough to give us grace, what need would there have been of Jesus? The priesthood it's talking about, is the priesthood that gives us grace. The priesthood of Jesus, not of man. Otherwise, if grace could be given by man, we wouldn't need Jesus, does that make sense?

1Timothy 5:17 - "Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine"

I'm not sure if it's the translation you're using or what, but again, it's from the greek word Presbuteros, and means elders.

1Timothy 5:19 - "Against a priest receive not an accusation, but under two or three witnesses."

Again, it's the same greek word as in 1 Timothy 5:17, which again means elders.

Titus 1:4-5 - "To Titus my beloved son, according to the common faith, grace and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Saviour. For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city"

Again, it's the same word, meaning elders.

James 5:14 - "Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

Once again, it's the same exact mistranslation.

All verses are quoted from the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

Yeah, I'd find a different bible version, because it's obviously got a bias towards the Catholic doctrine. Priest and elder are two entirely different things.

KJV w/ Strong's Concordance - Titus 1

^ There is a site I'm using to check the word meaning. Blue Letter Bible, Strong's Concordance, there's several that look at the original greek word that is being translated. I just happen to have used Strong's in this instance. I urge you to not believe me, but instead look up each of these verses for yourself to see if I'm being honest. The word means elder, not priest.

 

[Devin P]

Even look at the verse that shows up when I wrote out in my response: the verse 1 Timothy 5:17, even it says elders.

 

[samir]

This isn't important, but it's Acts 14:23**

Also, "priests" is the word elders. It's translated from the greek word "presbuteros" - which means elders, or advanced in life.

Presbuteros was translated as priests before Protestants came along 1,500 years after Christ and changed it to elders. If you've ever heard that the Catholic Church banned the bible, it's a myth. They only banned corrupt translations to keep people from being deceived.

It says neglect not the grace that is in us, which was given to us by prophesy. Was it prophesied that man would give us grace? What priesthood is it talking about? The priesthood that man keeps? Because think about this, if man could run a priesthood that was sufficient enough to give us grace, what need would there have been of Jesus? The priesthood it's talking about, is the priesthood that gives us grace. The priesthood of Jesus, not of man. Otherwise, if grace could be given by man, we wouldn't need Jesus, does that make sense?

The grace received by priests in the sacraments comes from Jesus. Without Jesus, priests would be powerless.

Yeah, I'd find a different bible version, because it's obviously got a bias towards the Catholic doctrine. Priest and elder are two entirely different things.

The reason some modern translations (15th century or later) say elder is because Protestants changed them to justify their rebellion against the Catholic Church. Any bible that says elder is biased towards Protestantism so I'd find a different bible version that agrees with the pre-15th century translations.

There is a site I'm using to check the word meaning. Blue Letter Bible, Strong's Concordance, there's several that look at the original greek word that is being translated. I just happen to have used Strong's in this instance. I urge you to not believe me, but instead look up each of these verses for yourself to see if I'm being honest. The word means elder, not priest.

Strong's concordance was created by James Strong, a Protestant theologian, so it is biased toward Protestantism.

 

[Devin P]

Presbuteros was translated as priests before Protestants came along 1,500 years after Christ and changed it to elders. If you've ever heard that the Catholic Church banned the bible, it's a myth. They only banned corrupt translations to keep people from being deceived.

Okay, so, the greek language is a language that exists outside of religion. This is something hopefully we can both agree on.

πρεσβυτερος - Means elder, or senior.

Go to any online dictionary, any book (aside from religious works) where it's referenced, and every single time that is it's consistent meaning.

πρεσβύτερος - Wiktionary

This is one website, there are several you can look it up on, but even the words that different languages (german, french, etc.) have descended down from (and also use this word πρεσβυτερος as their inspiration for modern words), also have the same meaning - elders, or advanced in age.

The reason some modern translations (15th century or later) say elder is because Protestants changed them to justify their rebellion against the Catholic Church. Any bible that says elder is biased towards Protestantism so I'd find a different bible version that agrees with the pre-15th century translations.

I understand that you don't like protestantism, nor do I. I'm neither catholic, nor protestant. But this simply isn't so. πρεσβυτερος means elder, this is the definition of the word, I'm not trying to spit on your doctrinal beliefs, but it's an error that many people have been led astray by.

I have a challenge for you. Prove that πρεσβυτερος doesn't mean elder, without using scripture, or catholic based apologetic websites. If you can, then I'll delete this thread. Take as long or as briefly as you need.

Strong's concordance was created by James Strong, a Protestant theologian, so it is biased toward Protestantism.

Touche, Blue Letter Bible wasn't, and it shows that it means elder as well, but I digress. Prove that πρεσβυτερος doesn't mean elder, and you will cause me to shut down this thread. You have my word.

 

[Vicomte13]

Are there any PRO-RCC doctrines in the crowd?
Silence infers assent.

Silence implies "Ignorant Catholic haters bore me and annoy me and I have better things to do with my time", nothing more than that.

"Jerks for Jesus" never convince anybody of anything.

 

[Darren Court]

The issue of praying and worshiping Mary is a simple one!

Catholics say they don't worship they venerate (and argue there's nothing wrong with it)

Let's be clear if ALL they do is venerate...... they're right.


...but the problem is ....... NOBODY KNOWS!


Sure Catholics believe they ONLY venerate Mary and the saints. They even try to produce good sounding arguments but the plain reality is that they CANNOT find a single scripture show the difference between veneration and worship... NONE.

Neither do Catholics appeal to apostolic succssion for clear guidance between the two because it's not there.

In other words, Catholics simply believe their actions, focus, prayers, etc on Mary are veneration because they say so.......

... and here's the rub.............. they don't know God's view!

In fairness neither do protestants but that's not the point. If venerating Mary was important to God, it would have been in the bible. Since it's not in the bible then it's safe to assume God will not judge anyone harshly for not venerating Mary. On the other hand God is very precise about not worshipping anyone or anything but Him.

Frankly, Catholics don't like these truths but cannot provide scriptural evidence to argue against them preferring to venerate Mary and believe it must be alright!

 

[Phil 1:21]

... and here's the rub.............. they don't know God's view!

Actually, if they read the Bible they'd know. How and to whom did Jesus teach us to pray? There's the answer.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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This thread is closed for staff review.

 

[mnorian]

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Thread is permanently closed for
flaming others or other religions or congregations.
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