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Featured Is Catholicism Correct?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Devin P, Oct 3, 2017.

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  1. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    That's really the whole point of this site right? To edify one another, and to steer clear of deception, and to help one another when we've fallen on hard times right?
    --------------------------------Mary & the saints------------------------------------
    Well, let us first look at their use of prayer to the mother of our Savior - Mary.

    Mary, is dead. No one disputes this as far as I know. But we see in Deuteronomy 10-12

    Deuteronomy 10-12
    10 There shall not be found among you any one that taketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
    11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

    12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

    Here we see that attempting to connect with the dead, is forbidden by God.

    1 Chronicles 10:13 -
    13 So saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
    14 And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

    Saul tried to speak to, and actually did talk with one who was dead, instead of talking to the Father, and died because of it.

    I have seen that people say they are just "venerating" Mary because she was the mother of God. But why? Why venerate her? Was it not God that gave her the place of being the mother of God? Do we venerate Moses for the freedom of Israel from Egypt? Or the splitting of the Red Sea? No. It was God that did it, not Moses. Moses was simply the vessel through which God performed HIS miracles.

    1 Timothy 2:5
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.

    There is one mediator that gets our message to God. It isn't Mary, or any of the other "saints". It's Jesus. It especially isn't the "priests" of the Catholic church.
    ------------------------priests and their rejection of Jesus----------
    Numbers 18 And the Lord said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.

    Numbers 3:10 - And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

    Exodus 29:9 - "You shall gird them with sashes, Aaron and his sons, and bind caps on them, and they shall have the priesthood by a perpetual statute. So you shall ordain Aaron and his sons.

    My point, is that according to God's Law, the only people before Jesus that were to be priests, were Aaron, and his sons. No one else could approach the priesthood. This is what Korah's rebellion was about. They thought they could minister unto God instead of Aaron, and God killed them all, and caused the ground to swallow up their families.

    Then, once Jesus came, He took the priesthood over. It's why there was a change to the law.

    Hebrews 7:11-14

    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

    Paul is writing about Jesus taking over the Priesthood for our sakes, and that there was a need of a change to the law, because the law only instructed men from the tribe of Levi, and more specifically the sons of Aaron to be priests to mediate for men to God. Now, we have Jesus mediating for us. He is our Priest in Heaven, therefore, what need is there of a priest today? There isn't. To have a "priest" today, is in direct violation of what Jesus did for us.

    Hebrews 7:26-28

    26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
    27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
    28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
     
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  2. samir

    samir Well-Known Member

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    If you really want answers and aren't just trying to attack Catholicism, there are many Catholic sites that easily refute what you posted. Why not check them first then come back here if you have any questions?
     
  3. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    I take it that you don't like Catholicism?

    Concerning veneration, let's say that you draw a nice painting and put it on your wall. I come over to your house and say "Wow. That is an awesome painting." Then I take a picture of it, post it on FB and tell all my friends how great it is. As the creator of the painting, have I brought you honor or dishonor by the attention that I have given to your painting?

    Concerning priesthood, well certainly our Lord Jesus is the only one who reconciled the human race and the Father. But obviously Christians still have certain intecessory roles toward one another. We are to pray for one another, for example. Perhaps your objection is towards the specific functions that Catholic priests play?

    The post was bit long so if you could simplify your objections a bit perhaps we can discuss them.
     
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  4. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    Well I definitely don't see a problem with complimenting someone, but venerating, when it includes prayers to something or someone other than God, then it's against the bible. The person (Mary) is deceased, and can no longer hear anyone, nor their prayers (not that she would've been able to even if she was alive).

    Each of us, is a saint by the blood of Jesus Christ. There's nothing greater about me, or Paul, or Mary. We've all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. The only difference is our role in His plan. More importantly our faith. The only thing that allowed David to kill Goliath was his faith. But we have to realize that even faith itself is a gift from God. So that too, isn't even attributable to David, as God gave Him his faith, and used that faith to work miracles through his life.

    My objection, is that attempting to have a pope or priest today, is in direct opposition to what Jesus has done for us. Using Mary to pray to, on our behalf is also just as much in opposition, and its even trying to reach the dead, something God is very much against. It's one of the reasons He killed Saul. My objection is that much of catholicism is based on man's tradition, and not the scriptures.

    My request is that someone points to scriptures, as to why these things are so. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind these things. I phrased the things in my OP the way I did because I figured I'd get several scriptural responses as to why I am wrong, or misled. I probably could've been less confrontational, and for that I apologize, but things directly in opposition to the bible grind my gears. Yes, I just typed that. People still say grind my gears, don't hate.
     
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  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Is Catholicism Correct?

    Great thread! This should bring the RCs over from the OBOB board.
    [So the RRC church is discussed on GT so much, perhaps there should be a seperat sub-board on GT, like the "Mariology" board.
    [LLoJ slowly tiptoes in then back out..........]

    Catholic Church - Wikipedia

    The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with more than 1.29 billion members worldwide.[5] One of the oldest religious institutions in the world, it has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilisation.[6] Headed by the Bishop of Rome, known as the Pope, the church's doctrines are summarised in the Nicene Creed. Its central administration, the Holy See, is in the Vatican City, enclaved within Rome, Italy.

    The Catholic Church teaches that it is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ,[7][8][note 1] that its bishops are the successors of Christ's apostles, and that the Pope is the successor to Saint Peter; the Prince of the Apostles.......

    In the account of the Confession of Peter found in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ designates Peter as the "rock" upon which Christ's church will be built.[263][264] The Catholic Church considers the Bishop of Rome, the pope, to be the successor to Saint Peter.[265] Some scholars state Peter was the first Bishop of Rome.[266][note 14] Others say that the institution of the papacy is not dependent on the idea that Peter was Bishop of Rome or even on his ever having been in Rome.[267]............
     
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    ^_^
    How many guesses do we get?
    Oh, that's right, he is in my avatar
     
  7. Tigger45

    Tigger45 Martin Luther Supporter

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    IMG_0084.JPG
     
  8. PanDeVida

    PanDeVida Well-Known Member

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    Nope I will not edit the truth, the truth can not be edited.
     
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  9. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    My name is Devin. Not "Devi". It's one thing to disagree, it's another to compare someone else to the devil.

    Did you read the scripture I posted there? It talks against communicating to the dead. That is what praying to Mary, or Moses would be. It's why Saul was reprimanded by Samuel.

    Luke 8:52-53
    Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

    Daniel 12:2
    "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Job 14:10-12
    "But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

    1 Kings 2:10
    Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

    Deuteronomy 31:16
    The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

    2 Kings 20:21
    So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

    Acts 7:60
    Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

    (Note: This verse in Acts, is referring to someone who was stoned to death, yet the scriptures said he fell asleep.) Why? Because, those who are dead, are asleep until the resurrection. Jesus is the resurrection, which is why Moses was awake speaking with Jesus.

    Jesus is the Lord of both, living and dead. Meaning He's in charge of both, He's in control of everything. So no. I don't think it's evil for the Shepherd to talk with His sheep.


    This wasn't literal. How could it be heaven, if we all are watching our loved ones be burnt and suffer eternal misery? He was using this as an example to describe to them how and why the Pharisees were in the wrong, not describing an actual situation.

    Jesus is God, is it a sin for God to talk to those that are in heaven with Him?

    Devi, you quoted: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.

    Devi, this is correct Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and Man, However, the one who inspired you to twist things around and blinded you to the truth so that you can not see, that All Christians can be the Mediators BETWEEN Jesus and Man! The Proof is below:

    Devi, Can any Christian lead a Non Christian to Jesus Christ??? if you answered YES! Then So can Moses Pray for Me so can Elias Pray for Me, So can Mary and all who are Alive in Christ in Heaven can pray for me, by me asking for their help, Because if the Lord can call upon Moses and Elias, SO CAN WE CATHOLICS. Amen
    [/quote]
    Praying
    for someone, is different than praying to someone. One is exactly how we're supposed to be, the other is idolatry. Does that person have the capability to grant your requests? No. Only God does. Do you believe Jesus can mediate for you? If you said yes, then let Him mediate for you. If you truly believed He can mediate for you, then why do you have the need to seek others to mediate for you? Cannot Jesus properly get your message across to the Father? That's one of the jobs of a Priest, of which, He is.

    He fulfilled the law. What you're saying isn't proving anything. This verse has nothing to do with a catholic priesthood. Jesus is our eternal Priest. He didn't say go and be priests for yourselves, no. He is our Priest, and He has made atonement for our sins, He is mediating for us, He is the reason we can boldly stand before the Mighty Throne of God. Not a catholic "priest".
     
  10. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. Jesus had not yet ascended into Heaven at the time of the transfiguration. Yes, he is fully God, but he is also fully human, indeed the most perfect human, and we our to conform our actions to his. Beyond that, our argument is addressed at the link below and at other places on the web.

    Praying to Dead Folks | Catholic Answers

    We could argue this indefinitely, but the bottom line is that we interpret Scripture differently than you do, and you are not an infallible interpreter of Scripture.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  11. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, I'm not saying that I'm am infallible interpreter at all. But, the bible is very clear that Jesus is our Priest, and that beside Him - there is, nor should their be another.
     
  12. One Of The Elect

    One Of The Elect Member

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    Mary and the Apostles are not dead. No one dies in Christ at lest not in the manner you are conveying. The soul is eternal . Let's say for the sake of argument you are right. No one is a mediator, intercessor or priest, but Christ Himself. Please tell me then what this means; John20: 21- Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. "AS the Father has sent me, even so I send you, ( Before I continue this scripture what does" As " mean in this scripture? Continuing with scripture, And when He said this He breathed on them , and said to them , "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained." Please explain this. Also, you obviously believe you know the way of truth, why are you speaking what you believe , and who do you believe you are speaking for? And if you speak as one believing he is knowing ,on whose behalf do you come ? Again who are you speaking for? I am not Catholic I am non denominational. I believe the Judaeo Christian Faith is non denominational. However there are true believers
    in all denominations. There is a lot of misinformation though that has lead to division. Please answer the above questions. Then I will elaborate.
     
  13. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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  14. One Of The Elect

    One Of The Elect Member

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    You have a list of errors for the RCC do you have a list of errors for perhaps the Protestants and all its sects or other denominations? Being non denominational- as you say you are, please share. Then we can have a fair and balanced debate without bias.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    According to Hebrews 7, that appears to be correct:

    Hebrews 7:
    23 Now there have been many other priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. 24 But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

    26 Such a high priest truly befits us—One who is holy, innocent, undefiled, set apart from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the Law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.


    Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 17
    The Royal Priesthood
    Melchizedek Parts 24-30

    In Genesis, chapter fourteen, we have one of the most intriguing stories in the Bible, that of Abram's encounter with Melchizedek, king of Salem, and "the priest of the Most High God."
    In the Genesis story, Melchizedek is a strange and mysterious figure. He flashes across the scene like a meteor.
    There is no heralding of his appearance, nor any mention of its results. He arrives out of the blue; there is no account of his family; there is nothing about his birth, his descent, his life, his work, or his death. He simply arrives.
    We learn only that he was king of Salem and priest of the Most High God. During the time of Abraham there were no large nations.

    One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.
    The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek.
    And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connecti
     
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Sounds like a plan.
    I suppose one could make new threads on both of those, but there these 2 already created:

    Roman church errors and inventions
    Roman church errors and inventions

    Protestant errors and inventions
    Protestant errors and inventions
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  17. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Response to Post#16" Q:..." do you have a list of errors for perhaps the Protestants and all of its sects or other denominations?"

    A: OFF POINT! "Is Catholicism Correct?
     
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  18. One Of The Elect

    One Of The Elect Member

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  19. One Of The Elect

    One Of The Elect Member

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    "IS ALL CATHOLICISM INCORRECT?"
     
  20. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Yes and no.
    Some of that doctrine may be biblical and some non-biblical.
    Some view a lot of their doctrines as "romanist cultish", and I had heard the EOC brand it as a "heresy".
    I have a few RC friends and relatives and I love them all the same........


    Catholicism
    Catholicism Catholicism fast facts and introduction

    For the first 1,500 years of Christianity there was no "Catholicism" as it is known it today, simply because there were no other forms of Christianity to distinguish it. There was only the "one, holy, catholic church" ("catholic" means "universal"), which was the body of Christian believers all over the western world, united by common traditions, beliefs, church structure and worship. Before the Reformation (in the 1500s), if you were a Christian, you belonged to the Catholic Church. Any other form of Christianity was considered a heresy, not a Christian denomination.........
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
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