Buddhist Is Buddhism Really a Religion.

[Aussie Pete]

Australia is an historically Christian country, with common Christian cultural assumptions, so that really doesn't help your case. In countries such as the US or Australia, Christianity has a continuing significant monopoly on the religious imagination of the mainstream of society, outside of the counter-culture.

Furthermore, the notion of individual choice and human freedom you are working with is in itself a legacy of Christian theology/philosophy. In other cultures, it's self-evident that people believe what they are culturally conditioned to believe. And a sales pitch (the "Roman Road" "moment of decision" or what have you of Anglo-American evangelicalism) alone isn't going to undo that, which is why Christianity has generally spread through violence, coercion, or unethical inducements (such as offers of food, medicine, even weaponry or military aid, and so on).

Australia was founded by the scum of British society. It is amazing that there has been so much progress in so little time. The early "settlers" had little choice, or do you not know about transportation? There was not much Christian about the convicts.

 

[FireDragon76]

Australia was founded by the scum of British society. It is amazing that there has been so much progress in so little time. The early "settlers" had little choice, or do you not know about transportation? There was not much Christian about the convicts.

Whether or not they were convicts is besides the point, they came from a culture heavily influenced by Christian ideas. Just because they did not live up to Christian ideals doesn't negate that fact.

My point is that you are operating from a very limited (and I could argue, erroneous) set of assumptions about the self and human freedom when you make sweeping judgements about the value of other religions and philosophies.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ah, spoken like someone who doesn't really care about truth, just convictions masquerading as such. Dunning Kruger syndrome much?

Not even convictions so much asssertions. Assertiveness plays a big role in Evangelicalism, and makes up woof and waft of personal testimony as evidence for being among the Elect. It all goes back to debates that Luther had with Erasmus around the time of the Reformation. Luther favored bold assertions as the basis of religion, Erasmus favored more humanistic sentiments, such as the cultivation of virtue, as well as loyalty to traditional structures in society.

Fundamentalists just take this to an extreme, not even really willing to entertain that we live in a world filled with competing assertions that might carry equal or greater epistemic weight and ethical importance.

 

[Zoii]

You can argue all you like. Buddha is dead. Jesus is alive. I know Him. He is as real to me as any physical person on this earth and He is actively involved in every aspect of my life. If you've had bad experiences with other Christians, that is a great shame. You do not know what you are missing.

That's so absurd. If he's alive, I wish hed do an interview on 60 minutes to clear all this nonsense up once and for all. Sadly though he's been conspicuously absent

 

[Zoii]

And while death is the penalty for becoming a Christian in most Muslim countries and preaching the gospel illegal, yes, those born into Muslim families are likely to stay Muslim. Having said that, some preachers are working in some Muslim nations and some are converting to Christianity. Faith in Christ comes by hearing the gospel. Christians are routinely murdered in India for preaching the gospel and the authorities rarely intervene. To me it is stating the obvious that people will follow the beliefs that they grow up with. Why would they not? It's only when they hear something different, as I did, that they may accept Christ.

So you can see then, that it's ridiculous you sprout that You possess the truth, when in fact you admit that's not what you'd be saying if you grew up in Pakistan. You'd do well to curb your disrespect of other cultures and beliefs. You sure don't sell the positive virtues of a Christian well

 

[Leaf473]

From Merriam-Webster
Definition of religion

1 a: the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


Though some forms of Buddhism require faith most Buddhists I know approach it as a philosophy and way of life like Stoicism. No faith needed in anything supernatural. It all seems to be about seeing reality clearly with mindfulness and compassion.

With an approach like that there does not need to be conflict with Christian beleif.

Great question! I think Buddhism, like other Eastern religions/philosophies, has a great deal of variation in it.

A group of people doing prostrations in front of a statue or chanting the Heart sutra definitely looks like a religion to me.

A group of people sitting silently waiting to see what happens in their minds looks more like a relaxation technique or a philosophy.

I've listened to many talks from Audio Dharma. I haven't heard anything that conflicts with Christianity *except* the kind of unspoken, underlying assumption that in the end nothing matters.

 

[muichimotsu]

Have you ever considered the possibility that the Christians had reason to believe what they did?

Doesn't make it right: Hitler had reasons to believe what he did, no one's going to say that suffices for justifying it at all. The state of mind does not defend the goodness of actions taken

 

[muichimotsu]

Not even convictions so much asssertions. Assertiveness plays a big role in Evangelicalism, and makes up woof and waft of personal testimony as evidence for being among the Elect. It all goes back to debates that Luther had with Erasmus around the time of the Reformation. Luther favored bold assertions as the basis of religion, Erasmus favored more humanistic sentiments, such as the cultivation of virtue, as well as loyalty to traditional structures in society.

Fundamentalists just take this to an extreme, not even really willing to entertain that we live in a world filled with competing assertions that might carry equal or greater epistemic weight and ethical importance.

Or even consider pluralism as anything more than the same demonizing tinge they put on anything else even resembling a different perspective, like socialism, relativism, etc

 

[FireDragon76]

All I know is there must be something to Buddhism that makes it tick. It's been around 500 years longer than Christianity, after all. And most Buddhists I have met radiate basic sanity and mental clarity (I believe that's true of Asian religions in general, actually- I've had positive experiences interacting with both Shinto and Taoist practitioners as well).

It seems to me all Christianity, at least in its Protestant form, can offer is stories that are to be accepted on what amounts to faith. Sometimes that faith is even expressed quite unreasonably.

I was raised a Christian (Methodist), dabbled seriously in Buddhism in my late 20's, and spent the better part of a decade as an adult searching out Christian churches that had anything as profound spiritually. All of them left me with a great deal of anxiety that the religion did not help me overcome. The final straw was when I noticed myself actually becoming depressed, something I hadn't dealt with since my late 20's. I watched a Youtube video of a Taoist master talking about meditation and I realized he had something in his life I obviously lacked, and I decided to take up meditation seriously again.

Here's a video of Master Gu talking about mindfulness.

I have not encountered many Christians who are like that, that radiate that kind of peace and happiness. Those are the qualities of someone the Chinese call a xiān, a god or wonderous person. Master Gu is well over 50 years old but his mind and body are not decrepit and old, unlike the people that were at my church. Churches talk about the sanctity of life and being made in the divine image, but few give us the tools to live a happier life that lives up to that ideal (indeed, some deny it is even possible). If life is a gift of God or Dao, that seems like a terrible loss.

I still pray for people at my old church and have gratitude for what they could offer to me, and I'm still technically a member, but I'm no longer one with them in mind or heart.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Why don't you tell mew then?

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen."
Substantiate: "provide evidence to support or prove the truth of." Oxford Dictionary.

Faith can be viewed as spiritual eyesight. Hearing "substantiates" sounds. You hear a dog barking and you know what it is. You see a horse and yes, it's obviously a horse. Sight substantiates visible objects. Faith substantiates the unseen things of the Spirit. But just because you can't see them does not make them any less real. Hope is the object of faith and that is the objective reality that God reveals in His word.

Faith cannot be subjective. Definition of subjective: "Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Personal feelings can change in an instant. Opinions can be swayed. Truth is truth. It cannot change. When people place their "faith" in feelings, they will never be stable as Christians. You see the struggles that some on the forum have. One day, they are saved, the next, they are struggling. Those who place their faith in God's facts are stable and strong, even in times of trouble.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Whether or not they were convicts is besides the point, they came from a culture heavily influenced by Christian ideas. Just because they did not live up to Christian ideals doesn't negate that fact.

My point is that you are operating from a very limited (and I could argue, erroneous) set of assumptions about the self and human freedom when you make sweeping judgements about the value of other religions and philosophies.

You see things from a certain point of view that I utterly reject. Human philosophy is vain. Religion is likewise pointless. I see things from God's point of view. I do not expect you to understand or agree.

 

[FireDragon76]

You see things from a certain point of view that I utterly reject. Human philosophy is vain. Religion is likewise pointless. I see things from God's point of view. I do not expect you to understand or agree.

Was Jesus not a human being? Was Paul not human? I am afraid the bolded statement is merely unfounded rhetoric.

To see things from God's point of view, you'ld have to actually be God.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen."
Substantiate: "provide evidence to support or prove the truth of." Oxford Dictionary.

Faith can be viewed as spiritual eyesight. Hearing "substantiates" sounds. You hear a dog barking and you know what it is. You see a horse and yes, it's obviously a horse. Sight substantiates visible objects. Faith substantiates the unseen things of the Spirit. But just because you can't see them does not make them any less real. Hope is the object of faith and that is the objective reality that God reveals in His word.

Faith cannot be subjective. Definition of subjective: "Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Personal feelings can change in an instant. Opinions can be swayed. Truth is truth. It cannot change. When people place their "faith" in feelings, they will never be stable as Christians. You see the struggles that some on the forum have. One day, they are saved, the next, they are struggling. Those who place their faith in God's facts are stable and strong, even in times of trouble.

That's not what faith is. That's superstition and magical thinking.

Faith is trust.

You have faith in the Bible and your fundamentalist interpretation of it. That's faith, it's trust or confidence, it's not magical superpowers.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen."
Substantiate: "provide evidence to support or p.rove the truth of." Oxford Dictionary.

Something is wrong there then since if one has faith in anything it is substantiated or proven. We know that cannot be true. Kids have faith in the Easter Bunny.

You also said, "Sight substantiates a visual object". Sight is a subjective experience.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

All I know is there must be something to Buddhism that makes it tick. It's been around 500 years longer than Christianity, after all. And most Buddhists I have met radiate basic sanity and mental clarity (I believe that's true of Asian religions in general, actually- I've had positive experiences interacting with both Shinto and Taoist practitioners as well).

It seems to me all Christianity, at least in its Protestant form, can offer is stories that are to be accepted on what amounts to faith. Sometimes that faith is even expressed quite unreasonably. in fact we (Christian tradition) has piled so much baggage on hi simple teachings it is no wonder that people search elsewhere for peace.

I was raised a Christian (Methodist), dabbled seriously in Buddhism in my late 20's, and spent the better part of a decade as an adult searching out Christian churches that had anything as profound spiritually. All of them left me with a great deal of anxiety that the religion did not help me overcome. The final straw was when I noticed myself actually becoming depressed, something I hadn't dealt with since my late 20's. I watched a Youtube video of a Taoist master talking about meditation and I realized he had something in his life I obviously lacked, and I decided to take up meditation seriously again.

Here's a video of Master Gu talking about mindfulness.

I have not encountered many Christians who are like that, that radiate that kind of peace and happiness. Those are the qualities of someone the Chinese call a xiān, a god or wonderous person. Master Gu is well over 50 years old but his mind and body are not decrepit and old, unlike the people that were at my church. Churches talk about the sanctity of life and being made in the divine image, but few give us the tools to live a happier life that lives up to that ideal (indeed, some deny it is even possible). If life is a gift of God or Dao, that seems like a terrible loss.

I still pray for people at my old church and have gratitude for what they could offer to me, and I'm still technically a member, but I'm no longer one with them in mind or heart.

I appreciated that and it highlights an aspect of Christ's teaching that we often ignore.
Matthew 6:31-34
Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.


Jesus as all about living in the present moment. We often are not, all worried about heaven and hell and if we a re praying correctly.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus teaching about consider the birds (Ravens in the Luke account) and the wildflowers really resonates with me. The Earth / modern society will provide the basics of life (food, clothes, and in my case shelter since I live where it's cold) for *most* people.

Being content with the basics of life matches up well with the essential teachings of many forms of buddhism, imo.

So I see a lot of overlap between basic Christianity and buddhism. They have several other things in common, such as being a Reformation of a much older race-based religion, growing in the atmosphere of a decaying empire, being kicked out of there country of origin, and both are highly missions oriented.

The thing that makes me lean towards Christianity is evidence of the Resurrection.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Jesus teaching about consider the birds ...

There is so much to the Christian faith that it is easy to gloss over some things, like it's own mindfulness and detachment.

 

[FireDragon76]

I appreciated that and it highlights an aspect of Christ's teaching that we often ignore.
Matthew 6:31-34
Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.


Jesus as all about living in the present moment. We often are not, all worried about heaven and hell and if we a re praying correctly.

One of Thitch Nhat Hanh's favorite quotes was from Abraham Muste, a Presbyterian-turned-Quaker, "There is no way to peace. Peace is the way".

Jesus teaching about consider the birds (Ravens in the Luke account) and the wildflowers really resonates with me. The Earth / modern society will provide the basics of life (food, clothes, and in my case shelter since I live where it's cold) for *most* people.

Being content with the basics of life matches up well with the essential teachings of many forms of buddhism, imo.

More or less, though I think that's generally a value in many premodern societies. With Buddhism the emphasis is on non-possesion in general, including over our own lives.

So I see a lot of overlap between basic Christianity and buddhism. They have several other things in common, such as being a Reformation of a much older race-based religion, growing in the atmosphere of a decaying empire, being kicked out of there country of origin, and both are highly missions oriented.

The thing that makes me lean towards Christianity is evidence of the Resurrection.

That's fair enough. People can find different things that they are drawn to. The Lotus Sutra states that bodhisattvas appear in different forms to teach everyone the truth according to their understanding. So, ultimately religion is a matter of the heart.

I suppose the appeal to me of Buddhism over Christianity is that I see Buddhists as generally less hung up about culture war issues that many Christians seem to obsess about. Probably because when you have a great deal of inner peace, you tend not to invest that kind of unwholesome passion into things that are largely symbolic. Buddhists in the US were accepting gays in their temples decades before it became even a subject of debate in Christian churches.

So the main appeal for me I suppose, beyond the inner peace, is the religious humanist aspect. Behind the rejection of humanism so common among Christians is always a spirit of fear of some kind.

 

[muichimotsu]

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen."
Substantiate: "provide evidence to support or prove the truth of." Oxford Dictionary.

Faith can be viewed as spiritual eyesight. Hearing "substantiates" sounds. You hear a dog barking and you know what it is. You see a horse and yes, it's obviously a horse. Sight substantiates visible objects. Faith substantiates the unseen things of the Spirit. But just because you can't see them does not make them any less real. Hope is the object of faith and that is the objective reality that God reveals in His word.

Faith cannot be subjective. Definition of subjective: "Based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Personal feelings can change in an instant. Opinions can be swayed. Truth is truth. It cannot change. When people place their "faith" in feelings, they will never be stable as Christians. You see the struggles that some on the forum have. One day, they are saved, the next, they are struggling. Those who place their faith in God's facts are stable and strong, even in times of trouble.

Senses can be fallible and subjective by your definition: I can hear what sounds like a cat, but it is quite likely a bird whose cry sounds like a cat. We can be mistaken at seeing something that's just a shadow in the dark, etc.

 

[Zoii]

Australia was founded by the scum of British society. It is amazing that there has been so much progress in so little time. The early "settlers" had little choice, or do you not know about transportation? There was not much Christian about the convicts.

I'm Australian too. Perhaps you need brushing up on your Australian history. They were not "Scum " as you put it, they were pretty criminals yes, driven largely by poverty within the UK. There was also an equal number who weren't convicts... Soldiers, administrators farmers and botanists. By the time 1800 rocked around, convicts were very much the Minority. All were from a Christian background