Is birth control an abomination?

[FireDragon76]

You're entitled to see having a family with children as your vocation but I don't agree that it is mandated for everyone.

 

[JIMINZ]

I thought you guys are under the new covenant.

Why is "be fruitfull and multiply" still part of the NC, but "stone rebellious children" isn't?

.
Selective Hearing??

 

[Nithavela]

We're just trying to be all 'ecumenical' and be just like all the Protestants.

You somehow quoted the wrong person.

How did you do that?

 

[chevyontheriver]

You somehow quoted the wrong person.

How did you do that?

Must be a God thing I guess.




Ah, I know what happened. When I start a reply and then change my mind and don't send it sometimes odd things happen, like the abandoned message shows up when I reply to another post. I wasn't sharp enough to edit that correctly and that's how I sent it to you. I have a habit of writing out posts and then thinking how dumb it would be to actually send the post so about a quarter of my posts never see the light of day. Then there are those few where I totally mess it all up. I don't remember what I was going to send you but I hope you had fun with what I mistakenly sent you.

 

[Strathos]

In response to my thesis, she brought up a comedy movie about dysgenics where everyone in the future has a low IQ due to unintelligent people overbreeding and smart people having few, if any, children. She therefore implied that religious people who procreate a lot are idiots and will lead to a future where everyone is stupid. That clearly sounds like an attack on pious, fecund people. If you think otherwise, then explain.

You really think that being religious necessitates holding your ideas about reproduction?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In Genesis 1:28, God ordained that his adherents be fruitful and multiply. Our heavenly father specifically commanded us to make babies, lots of them. Therefore, it stands to reason that Christians who use birth control are committing an abomination. (If anyone thinks the scripture I quoted was meant for the distant past, you’re kidding yourself. 1 Peter 1:25 says that God’s word “endures forever,” so of course our heavenly father’s commandment to be fruitful and multiply is still relevant today.)

Some people may disagree with me and ask how can some Christian couples afford to have half a dozen children or more. Well, if you’re saved and belong to Christ, God will intervene and give you the help you need. Don’t lack faith.

There is also a strategic reason why God ordered his adherents to procreate a lot. In the long term, the ultra-religious will eventually outnumber the secularists, leftists, and other sorts of ungodly people who don’t value faith. For example, Haredi Jews—meaning the ultra pious Jews who wear those hats and black suits, grow their bears, and devote their lives wholly to the Lord—comprise 9.9% of Israelis. Their birth rate is 6.2 children per woman, but the secular Jews in Israel barely have any kids. Because of these demographic changes, the Haredi are expected to be the majority of Israelis by mid-century. This is a good thing because Israel is generally secular and has enacted liberal ideologies like legal sodomite weddings. When the truly pious Jews become the majority, they will elect leaders who will get rid of those secular abominations, implement godly laws, and return Israel to holiness.

The same is true with Christians here in the US. Secularists and lefties, many of whom don’t believe in God or may consider themselves nominally Christian, which isn’t really Christian in the first place, practice birth control and barely have any children compared to conservatives and religious fundamentalists. Some Americans on the Right are worried that the US will become irredeemably liberal due to the demographic changes from non-Western immigration. But in the long run, liberals and secularists are consigning themselves to demographic oblivion, since they practice birth control and focus on their careers instead of family, while conservatives and fundamentalists are making babies. This means that our sort will be in the vast majority by the end of the century.

What am saying? If you’re a good Christian who values faith, then it is an abomination if you think birth control is acceptable and practice it. As God’s faithful adherents, we must go forth and multiply, which will ensure our demographic majority against an ever depopulating liberal/secular population. If you want the future of humanity to be holy and pious, and not secular and ungodly and liberal, then do your Christian duty and have five, six, seven, eight, nine, or even ten children!

...I'm a "morally" conservative Christian, and my wife and I practice birth control. I'm not seeing a problem here. I rather see it as the responsible thing to do in a society where it's nearly every family for themselves due to intransigent pluralism (i.e. -- you're neighbors, or even your own diverse family members, disagree with you, can't be fully trusted, and probably don't really want to help you out as much as you hope they would). Yes, in such an individualistic society, it's probably best to keep things in perspective, especially if you find yourself without a job by which to support your ever growing family--unless you expect handouts from everyone.

Secondly, the U.S. always has been an increasingly liberal state ever since it's conception and inception, despite the presence of a high proportion of Christians 'in' the population. In fact, the liberal impulse was part and parcel of the design of the political structure enshrined in our Constitution and in the Bill of Rights, so it's not as if the U.S. is just now in the "process" of going to the liberal dogs. If you doubt that the process has been underway ever since the beginning, just read some Walter Berns, particularly his book, "The First Amendment and the Future of American Democracy." If you're a Christian, I guarantee it will shock your socks off ...

[addendum: please note that when I say 'liberal dogs,' by this term I mean to specifically refer to those persons who are anti-Christian in an extreme, recalcitrant liberal stance. I am not inferring that Liberals on the whole are "dogs." ...I thought I'd better be clear about this. Thanks. ]

 

[PloverWing]

At any rate, the idea of having as many kids as possible in order to basically take over the world isn't a uniquely Christian one anyway; don't certain Islamic groups have the same agenda?

According to The Tenth Parallel: Dispatches from the Fault Line Between Christianity and Islam, by Eliza Griswold, this kind of competition is happening in several of the countries that are half Christian, half Muslim, with each of the two religious groups trying to have more children than the other, so as to dominate the other in the population.

I would rather they competed by trying to see which religious group could build the best hospitals or the best universities.

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

Secondly, the U.S. always has been an increasingly liberal state ever since it's conception and inception, despite the presence of a high proportion of Christians 'in' the population. In fact, the liberal impulse was part and parcel of the design of the political structure enshrined in our Constitution and in the Bill of Rights, so it's not as if the U.S. is just now in the "process" of going to the liberal dogs. If you doubt that the process has been underway ever since the beginning, just read some Walter Berns, particularly his book, "The First Amendment and the Future of American Democracy" [by the way, it NOT a Chri If you're a Christian, I guarantee it will shock your socks off ...

If you actually read my other posts on this thread, you would see that I said America's founding fathers were largely secular and that the American ethos, enshrined in the Constitution, stems from Enlightenment era ideals.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you actually read my other posts on this thread, you would see that I said America's founding fathers were largely secular and that the American ethos, enshrined in the Constitution, stems from Enlightenment era ideals.

Sorry. I don't make it a habit to waste time in reading threads in their entirety. But, I am willing to read selections that others suggest I draw attention to.

So, then, it sounds like you and I aren't really too far apart in some of our evaluations. However, did I miss something about the context of your comments about birth control?

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

Sorry. I don't make it a habit to waste time in reading threads in their entirety. But, I am willing to read selections that others suggest I draw attention to.

So, then,it's sounds like you and I aren't really too far apart in some of our evaluations. However, did I miss something about the context of your comments about birth control?

It's okay.

There are many Afro-centrists who feel like they don't have a history of their own, so they hijack ancient Egypt and claim they were black. Likewise, there are some Christians who hijack America's history and claim our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values, but for different reasons. But I've always known the United States was a liberal nation in principle, though the term "liberal" has evolved to mean different things as time has gone by.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's okay.

There are many Afro-centrists who feel like they don't have a history of their own, so they hijack ancient Egypt and claim they were black. Likewise, there are some Christians who hijack America's history and claim our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values, but for different reasons. But I've always known the United States was a liberal nation in principle, though the term "liberal" has evolved to mean different things as time has gone by.

Sure. The term "liberal" has indeed evolved to mean different things over the last few centuries. But here, in my references, I'm going along with the general notion expressed by Walter Berns as it is connected by him with the concept of 'liberalism':

We acknowledge that the United States is a liberal democracy, but we may forget that the term liberalism, in its modern sense, was coined to denote the liberation from the power of church and churchmen. In the beginning of free and liberal government, no question was more important than the question of religion, and none played so prominent a role in the thought of the pertinent theorists--Hobbes, Locke, Spinoza, Bayle, and to a lesser extent, even Montesquieu. Even if it could be said that they solved the problem in principle, it was left to the American Founders to be the first to solve it, or to try to solve it, in practice [i.e. by the principle of the separation of Church and State]. (pp. 1-2)​

Reference

The First Amendment and the Future of American Democracy - Walter Berns

[addendum: please note that when I say 'liberal dogs,' by this term I mean to specifically refer to those persons who are anti-Christian in an extreme, recalcitrant liberal stance. I am not inferring that Liberals on the whole are "dogs." ...I thought I'd better be clear about this. Thanks. ]

 

[RogerRoger]

Hey @compassion 4 humanity,

I was hoping you'd answer my question:

Your Original Quote: I made the astute argument that religious Christians should make a lot of babies because it will secure our demographic preeminence (and subsequent power and influence over society as holy people) in the future, since secularists and liberals don’t breed as much. So far, no one who posted here attempted to address my excellent point.
​

Your argument rests on the assumption that establishing demographic preeminence and worldly power/influence is our purpose (or one of our purposes).

Can you provide proof of this? Because from what I can tell Jesus came to establish his Kingdom, and in doing so subverted first century Jewish expectations by establishing not a worldly kingdom (with borders and government), but a heavenly kingdom that reached out to the gentiles.

 

[FireDragon76]

If you actually read my other posts on this thread, you would see that I said America's founding fathers were largely secular and that the American ethos, enshrined in the Constitution, stems from Enlightenment era ideals.

"Secular" and Christian are not mutually incompatible. Especially if you recognize you are free to render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to God that which is God's.

Washington was an Episcopalian/Anglican. He was even a significant figure in his parish, though he had some odd and eccentric notions of what that meant at times. Franklin was shaped heavily by his Congregationalist upbringing. Just because they weren't particularly pietist doesn't mean we shouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt and recognize that they were Christians. They were just what we'ld recognize today as liberals.

 

[FireDragon76]

The notion that we need to outbreed pagans seems to not be ultimately one that trusts in Christ alone for our salvation, but trusts in a human scheme to achieve cultural domination. I see no reason why this logic should even be fittingly called Christian. It has nothing to do with the Gospel, and everything to do with tribalism.

People should ideally have children because they genuinely desire them, and for no other reason. Human lives should not be seen as instrumental in any way, that is part of recognizing human dignity.

 

[durangodawood]

Discouraging birth control is an abomination.

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

Hey @compassion 4 humanity,

I was hoping you'd answer my question:

Your Original Quote: I made the astute argument that religious Christians should make a lot of babies because it will secure our demographic preeminence (and subsequent power and influence over society as holy people) in the future, since secularists and liberals don’t breed as much. So far, no one who posted here attempted to address my excellent point.
​

Your argument rests on the assumption that establishing demographic preeminence and worldly power/influence is our purpose (or one of our purposes).

Can you provide proof of this? Because from what I can tell Jesus came to establish his Kingdom, and in doing so subverted first century Jewish expectations by establishing not a worldly kingdom (with borders and government), but a heavenly kingdom that reached out to the gentiles.

No, demographic influence and power isn't the purpose for Christians. It's icing on the cake.

 

[Astrophile]

In Genesis 1:28, God ordained that his adherents be fruitful and multiply.

In 1 Corinthians 7:1 St. Paul says, 'It is a good thing for a man to have nothing to do with women'. Revelation 14:3-4 says 'the hundred and forty-four thousand, who alone from the whole world had been ransomed. These are men who did not defile themselves with women, for they have kept themselves chaste'. Which of these verses are Christians to believe and follow?

 

[Strathos]

God said "be fruitful and multiply."

The world population is now some 7 billion. Mission accomplished, I would say.

 

[Celticroots]

Not everyone who is on birth control does so to prevent pregnancy. I am on it for very bad periods. And not everyone wants children either.

 

[Dave RP]

In Genesis 1:28, God ordained that his adherents be fruitful and multiply. Our heavenly father specifically commanded us to make babies, lots of them. Therefore, it stands to reason that Christians who use birth control are committing an abomination. (If anyone thinks the scripture I quoted was meant for the distant past, you’re kidding yourself. 1 Peter 1:25 says that God’s word “endures forever,” so of course our heavenly father’s commandment to be fruitful and multiply is still relevant today.)

Some people may disagree with me and ask how can some Christian couples afford to have half a dozen children or more. Well, if you’re saved and belong to Christ, God will intervene and give you the help you need. Don’t lack faith.

There is also a strategic reason why God ordered his adherents to procreate a lot. In the long term, the ultra-religious will eventually outnumber the secularists, leftists, and other sorts of ungodly people who don’t value faith. For example, Haredi Jews—meaning the ultra pious Jews who wear those hats and black suits, grow their bears, and devote their lives wholly to the Lord—comprise 9.9% of Israelis. Their birth rate is 6.2 children per woman, but the secular Jews in Israel barely have any kids. Because of these demographic changes, the Haredi are expected to be the majority of Israelis by mid-century. This is a good thing because Israel is generally secular and has enacted liberal ideologies like legal sodomite weddings. When the truly pious Jews become the majority, they will elect leaders who will get rid of those secular abominations, implement godly laws, and return Israel to holiness.

The same is true with Christians here in the US. Secularists and lefties, many of whom don’t believe in God or may consider themselves nominally Christian, which isn’t really Christian in the first place, practice birth control and barely have any children compared to conservatives and religious fundamentalists. Some Americans on the Right are worried that the US will become irredeemably liberal due to the demographic changes from non-Western immigration. But in the long run, liberals and secularists are consigning themselves to demographic oblivion, since they practice birth control and focus on their careers instead of family, while conservatives and fundamentalists are making babies. This means that our sort will be in the vast majority by the end of the century.

What am saying? If you’re a good Christian who values faith, then it is an abomination if you think birth control is acceptable and practice it. As God’s faithful adherents, we must go forth and multiply, which will ensure our demographic majority against an ever depopulating liberal/secular population. If you want the future of humanity to be holy and pious, and not secular and ungodly and liberal, then do your Christian duty and have five, six, seven, eight, nine, or even ten children!

The main abomination is the destruction of animal life caused by over population and loss of bio diversity. Humankind is perpetuating one of the greatest extinction events in world history, mostly because there are just too many people being born.

If you are a true Christian you will follow the instructions of your god who said Genesis 2:15 “The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it.” and Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So the instruction was to tend and keep gods creation, using his "dominion" over the earth to do so. Not to breed to such a ludicrous extent that we leave no room for other creatures.

The world population is 7.5 billion, increasing at 1 billion every 15 years, that is simply not sustainable and cannot continue.

Christians are going against the instructions of the god you purport to follow by encouraging this and it is shameful and has to stop.