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Featured Is being Righteous different from being justified? James and Paul

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Guojing, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    I realize that but you have to wonder.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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  3. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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  4. def

    def Member Supporter

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    Why would James recall the imputation of righteousness in verse 23 if it is not connected to verse 21 - Isaac's sacrifice? He did so to point out that Abraham, who did not complete the task, would be imputed with righteousness.

    As for Acts 21:25, I just can't see how James's teachings do not apply to the Gentiles based on this verse or the chapter.
     
  5. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea why James did that, scripture is silent there. But it is a fact that Genesis 15:6 was written many years before Issac was even born. So there is no reason to link his righteousness to the events pertaining to the act he performed on Issac.

    But there is a reason to conclude that, perhaps in James's mind, he distinguish between righteous and justified, thus explaining the link. Simply put, for James, Abraham was declared righteous when he believed, but he was only justified after he was willing to obey God's test to sacrifice Issac.

    As for your second point, Acts 21:20-25, together with James 1:1 and Galatians 2:9, will give you a complete picture why there are people who believe that James was only instructing the Jewish believers, and not the Gentile converts, that they need both faith and works to be justified.
     
  6. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Be therefore not just hearers of the word but doers.

    Ephesians 4:17-24

    This I say therefore, and testify in [the] Lord, that ye should no longer walk as [the rest of] the nations walk in [the] vanity of their mind, (nous)

    being darkened in understanding (dianoia), estranged from the life of God by reason of the ignorance which is in them, by reason of the hardness of their hearts,

    who having cast off all feeling, have given themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greedy unsatisfied lust.

    But *ye* have not thus learnt the Christ,

    if ye have heard him and been instructed in him according as [the] truth is in Jesus;

    [namely] your having put off according to the former conversation the old man which corrupts itself according to the deceitful lusts;

    and being renewed in the spirit of your mind;(nous)

    and [your] having put on the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness.

    Abraham was a picture of that yet to come when God’s Son was indeed sacrificed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  7. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    To be just, is to be righteous. To be justified, is to be made righteous. This is a real righteousness that God imparts to man as we turn to Him in faith. When we separate righteousness from actual justice or righteousness, by making it merely imputed or declared, we end up doing what Is 5:20 warns against. God forgives us; God cleanses us; God forgets our sin, and God makes us new creations, able to refrain from unrighteousness now to the extent that we remain in Him and He in us.
     
  8. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So there is no material difference between the 2 terms? I can agree too. So why do you think James specifically distinguished between the 2 in that chapter 2 passage?

    Or is it the Greek word has a difference?
     
  9. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Far from an expert here but it appears that the Greek word is the same, or has the same root. So the NIV actually translates it:
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
     
  10. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    This thread isn't the place, but I'd love to hear more about the RC perspective on this, and how and where it differs from the Protestant position (imputation/infusion).

    I have one quick question right now though (if you don't mind), if the RCC teaches that the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us doesn't get the job done (so to speak), what do you guys do about the all-important flip-side of the equation :scratch:

    I know that along with us Protestants, Catholics also believe that to be saved, our sins must be credited/imputed to Jesus' account such that He is made/declared to be sin for us (because we both agree that He never becomes an actual sinner by the infusion of our sins). So, since you guys believe that imputation gets the job done on the one hand (our sins being credited/imputed to Jesus' account), then why does the RCC teach that it doesn't it work on the other hand too (Jesus' righteousness being credited/imputed to our accounts) :scratch:

    Thanks!

    --David
    p.s. - sorry for the thread drift @Guojing, I promise that I won't let it continue for more than a post or two more.

    2 Corinthians 5
    21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    There can be no difference due to the fact it’s God’s Righteousness not our own.
     
  12. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So do you think James was talking about salvation requiring faith AND works there?
     
  13. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    No problem. As far as RC are concerned, they believed that salvation requires faith AND works. So James 2 is one of their favorite passages.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    1. I think the context of James 2 is the Justified in Christ will be like Him.

    2. The only work which saves is the Work of the Cross and the empty tomb.
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Oh is this the "Paul is talking about justification before God but James is talking about justification before man" perspective?
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes of course. James 2 is used to negate the multitude of epistles saying otherwise the eisegesis usually presented.

    When one presents this then they tells us there is obviously uncertainty in Scriptures and why one needs a supposedly infallible magisterium. But that scorched scripture approach does not work.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    No. James is speaking of the fruits of being justified.

    Remember the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God (Romans 8:16). Which is the sobering reality.
     
  18. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Hmm this is the "Works do not save you but saved people do works" reasoning?
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    No. It’s this reasoning:

    Ephesians 2: NASB

    1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
     
  20. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    James 2 illustrates the following principle of faith:

    Do you believe this chair is is sturdy? Then sit in it.

    Do you trust this person? Then act like it.

    etc.

    These examples illustrated how trust or faith looks like in context of a relationship.

    Also a good way of looking at anything in the bible is that it has it's own context. At this point in history, philosophy that is common knowledge tends to illustrate contradictions that were not a concept when the texts were written.
     
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