Is baptism neccesary for salvation?

[franklin]

  Originally posted by closer
The fact also since you insist on using a questionable verse is that if one does not believe he will be damned. That does not say if one is not baptized he is damned.The fact that very little on baptism is given in the New Testament in regards to salvation should raise questions. 

Closer, I think you and booth both need to take a closer look at the scriptures and you will see there is plenty of scriptual evidence about baptizm being a commandment.  Like I said in my previous posts, it is the only commandment God commands us to obey once!  Is that to much trouble for someone to follow?  If it is, then they are not ready to follow Christ!  When you lead someone to Christ, do you tell them there is no need for them to be baptized?  If you do, then you are teaching another Gospel!  Is it ever counterproductive to obey God?  I can just imagine what God must think when He hears someone refusing to be baptized!  For you and booth to say it is not important, is to trivialize the Gospel and the word of God!   Either there are conditions to salvation or there are none. Check it out!  Open up your bible and start reading! Or do I have to list all the scripture references for you and booth?  I'm not basing baptism on only one verse either. 

  Secondly there is no distinction between works with regards to lost people. Faith is not a work. Faith is demonstrated by works, but in itself it is not a work. If faith is a work then Calvinist have been right all along and I am not ready to go to that extreme. [/B]

Oh yes, speaking of Calvin, he knew that we could not have it both ways. Either there are conditions to salvation or there are none. If there are any conditions of salvation at all, then we must observe all that God has set forth as conditions. Why do we recognize faith to be a condition of salvation without recognizing repentance. If we recognize repentance, why not confession? And if any of these, then why not baptism? Indeed, baptism is stated to be a condition of entry into Christ and His kingdom several times as often as these other conditions. At least Calvin was consistent when he renounced all conditions of salvation and declared that we are saved by the irresistible grace of God which is totally beyond our control.  That is why I don't believe calvinism is what scripture teaches. His teaching is based on unconditional election but I don't think we should get into that discussion in this tread. Thanks for mentioning it though.  Ok, now to answer what you are saying about faith..... I'll let James ask you a quesion first.... What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?  In other words closer, can faith alone save a person?  Maybe we'll get into all the other "only's" later.  Now James really gets technical in the following verses, doesn't he?  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.  So your saying that faith is not a work?  Think again closer!  look at what James says in vs. 17.... he is saying faith is dead without works! especially after the example he gave in vs 16!  
 

  Only a regenrated man can do works of righteousness. Therefore the man must be regenerated before he can be baptized with the right heart. [/B]

This is getting better by the minute or should I say worse?  What is the first sign of the regenerated saved person?  Should I answer that for you?  It's his first outward act of obedience that I mentioned earlier that God commands us to do only once!  It's called baptizm! 

 
Secondly James does not teach that faith is a work mearly the illustration of faith through works. Faith is a gift of God. [/B]

Go back and read Js 2:14-17..... As James has spelled out clearly about faith, it is a work because it is an action! It's more then just a mere illustration my friend!  1 Timothy 6:12, "Fight the good fight of faith [Action]" 

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."  Js 2:24 

James 2:21-26, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works...Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works...For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." 

 

 

[LouisBooth]

Faith is not a work frank, you can talk and say it is as much as you want..its not..faith is a gift of God, not from ourselves.

Baptism is not required for salvation. It is a physical representation of a spiritual change. It is a ritual, not a saving grace.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Closer, I think you and booth both need to take a closer look at the scriptures and you will see there is plenty of scriptual evidence about baptizm being a commandment. "

NO, there isn't. There is scriptural evidence that its important, but not essential. THE ONLY verse you can use is Mark 16:16 and this whole passage is not a firm ground, therefore should not be used as the sole support of what you deem essential docterine. I don't like to build my essentials on a house of cards frank, but that's what you're asking me to do. Sorry, I won't do it. Salvation is Grace through faith alone.

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by LouisBooth

NO, there isn't. There is scriptural evidence that its important, but not essential. THE ONLY verse you can use is Mark 16:16 and this whole passage is not a firm ground.....

this scripture is not on firm ground? God's word is always on solid ground, it's mans words and private interpretation that is on sinking sand! You need to rethink what your saying Booth!  Like I said in previous posts, there is plenty of scriptual evidence about baptizm in the NT...  

  therefore should not be used as the sole support of what you deem essential docterine. I don't like to build my essentials on a house of cards frank, but that's what you're asking me to do. Sorry, I won't do it. Salvation is Grace through faith alone. [/B]

There is only one reality with God... either we are saved by faith only or we are not. If we are saved by faith only, then it ought to say it in the New Testament. On the other hand, if the word of God indicates that this is a false doctrine, but we decide to believe it anyway, we will be eternally lost.  I think you need to go back to my previous posts where I quoted James 2...... what method of private interpretation are you applying there?  I think your answer will be obvious...... show me the scripture that teaches we are saved by "faith only" ?   Your folowing the doctrine of the "saved by the only's gospel" that is nowhere to be found in the word of God!

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2)

Booth, if you want to learn what the Bible teaches about faith only or faith alone, read Js2:14-26 .....


 

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by franklin
 

If we are saved by faith only, then it ought to say it in the New Testament. 

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Eph 2:8-9<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">8<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;<o></o>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">9<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.<o></o>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">(NAU)<o></o>

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2)

Bible teaches about faith only or faith alone, read Js2:14-26 [/B]

James was speaking about Abraham's works showing that he does have true faith.&nbsp; not that you have to have faith + works to be justified before God.&nbsp; This is clearly evident when James quotes this passage "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness."

Also if James meant that it would clearly contradict Paul.
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Rom 4:1-3<o></o>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">1<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?<o></o>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">2<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.<o></o>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">3<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."<o></o>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">(NAU)<o></o>

So James and Paul must not be speaking of the same thing when they say justification.&nbsp;
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">“It showed that his faith was not merely speculative, but was an active principle, leading to holy living. This</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 6.5pt; COLOR: #810000"> </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black">demonstrates that what the apostle refers to here is the evidence by which it is shown that a man’s faith is genuine, and that he does not refer to the question whether the act of justification, where a sinner is converted, is solely in consequence of believing. Thus the case proves what James purposes to prove, that the faith which justifies is only that which leads to good works.” (Barnes: notes on James 2:21)&nbsp; </SPAN>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">So James' point is that a true and saving faith leads to good works and that it is way other men can tell you do have saving faith but not that good works justifiy you before God.&nbsp; So it is not faith + works but one can say it is faith with works although the works are just a natural outcome of the faith.&nbsp; </SPAN>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN style="COLOR: black">blackhawk </SPAN>



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[LouisBooth]

"this scripture is not on firm ground? "

That passage in Mark is NOT in the most earily manuscripts out there. When I researched this topic this is the first thing I found. It tells me building docterine SOLELY on this verse is a very dangerious thing. Thus I don't do it.

"there is plenty of scriptual evidence about baptizm in the NT... "

I agree, but NONE of it says you aren't saved if you don't get baptised. There are instances where people didn't even get the spirit after being baptised..thus telling me it is only a ritual, showing a spiritual event.

"If we are saved by faith only, then it ought to say it in the New Testament. "

It does. In John 3 christ says simply..you believe, you're not condemend, you don't believe, you are condemned. This to a man that was asking what it took to be in heaven. The specific question was how am I born again!! Only a spiritual change and a spritual change alone saves you. thus a physical ritual has nothing to do with it, it just reflects what has happen spiritually. Is this something we should do? YES!!! Is it important? YES!!! Is it essential for salvation? No.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2) "

If you had read the WHOLE book you would understand that verse. James analogy of a man and his reflection explain it perfectly.

 

[hokus]

if the entire Bible were lost with the exception of one passage, would that one verse still be enough to save us?
Romans 10:9
"if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

 

[Thunderchild]

James was speaking about Abraham's works showing that he does have true faith. not that you have to have faith + works to be justified before God. This is clearly evident when James quotes this passage "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness

James 2:14 What is the benefit, my brethren if any should be saying he has faith yet may (is permitted to) have no works? Faith cannot save him.

James was using Abraham and others as a demonstration of the fact that faith without works, being by itself, is dead. James 2:24 - for you see that by works a man is justified, not by faith alone. In verse 22 James says - You see that faith worked together with his (Abraham's) works, and by works faith was perfected - thus bringing to fruition the scripture which says "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness," ... hmmm, if Abraham had no works, the scripture would not have been fulfilled which says "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness."

Quite simply, James goes to great lengths to show the doctrine claiming to have its basis in Paul's writings (that by the freely bestowed grace of God, faith alone saves) has no true basis in Paul's writings at all - it is a misinterpretation of Paul's intentions.

Do we have any real problem with this? Or will someone say that those who are unrepentant are recipients of God's grace through faith? Or will someone else perhaps claim that repentance, being a decision to eschew all that is not of God, is somehow not a work?

 

[Thunderchild]

Originally posted by closer
The fact also since you insist on using a questionable verse is that if one does not believe he will be damned. That does not say if one is not baptized he is damned.The fact that very little on baptism is given in the New Testament in regards to salvation should raise questions.

Of a truth, very little is said about baptism in the New Testament. Only that through baptism we die to sin, are buried, are raised again to a new life in Christ Jesus. Oh, and that we are baptised into the name of Jesus through baptism in water. Oh wait, it says also that baptism now saves us. And yes, John's baptism isn't the same thing as baptism into the name of Christ Jesus - that there is a minor difference between being baptised for the remission of sins and having one's sins washed away (though exactly what that difference is, is not detailed.) Oh yes, those who were baptised into John's baptism had to be baptised into the name of Christ Jesus. Those who were baptised into the Holy Spirit were commanded to be baptised into the name of Christ Jesus (using water). And of course, all the other references to baptism in the gospels... like the command Jesus gave to go out into all the world and preach the gospel, and baptise into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Then there is.... but enough, very little is can or will be said about a topic that is listed to be nothing more than an elementary principle of the doctrines of Christ.

 

[franklin]

&nbsp; Originally posted by Thunderchild
Of a truth, very little is said about baptism in the New Testament.

Peter replied, repent and be baptized.... (Acts 2:28);
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. (Acts 2:41); But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts 8:12); Simon himself believed and was baptized. (Acts 8:13); because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[ 8:16 Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 8:16); As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized? (Acts 8:36); And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. (Acts 8:38); Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized... (Acts 9:18);

Mr Thunderchild,&nbsp;Need I&nbsp;go on any further? I think you can see that the NT is full of truth&nbsp;about baptizm&nbsp;being commanded by God.&nbsp; The NT is evidenced by men and woman who were overjoyed about being baptized into Christ, however, today, we have those who say it is not required or refuse to be baptized!&nbsp;&nbsp;Like I said&nbsp;in previous posts;&nbsp;Of all of the acts that are commanded of us, baptism is the least demanding; indeed, an argument can be made that it is something which is done to us, not something that we do. However, it is up to each of us to subject ourselves to it. Baptism is also the only command of God that we only obey once.&nbsp;

&nbsp; Those who were baptised into the Holy Spirit were commanded to be baptised into the name of Christ Jesus (using water)[/B]

The baptism in the Holy Spirit was a promise; it was never commanded. The apostles did not practice it in the sense of doing anything to bring it about as is so falsely taught by certain groups today.&nbsp; I'm not implying that is what you are saying BTW, I'm just making a point and I appreciate your posts brother.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

 

[LouisBooth]

Frank, Christ says it pretty plainly in John 3. If you don't believe you are condemned. Not if you're not baptised, not if you don't do a little dance, not if you don't dress a certain way..the ONLY thing that gets you condemned is nonbelief.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Frank, Christ says it pretty plainly in John 3. If you don't believe you are condemned. Not if you're not baptised, not if you don't do a little dance, not if you don't dress a certain way..the ONLY thing that gets you condemned is nonbelief.

Oh boy booth you are really&nbsp;grabbing at straws now!&nbsp; So now it's belief alone that will save you?&nbsp; Well, the devil also believes,&nbsp;does that mean he is saved?&nbsp;Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.&nbsp; (Js 2:19) Does hope alone save you? Does baptizm&nbsp;alone save you?&nbsp; Does repentence alone save you? Does works alone save you?&nbsp; What other only or alone doctrine can you fill in the blanks with that will save you?&nbsp;&nbsp;How bout if&nbsp;someone raises&nbsp;his hand at one of the temporary Christian concerts, will that save&nbsp;him?&nbsp;er, I mean con-temporary!&nbsp;&nbsp;The scriptures&nbsp;affirm that we are not saved by anything only.&nbsp; The doctrine of faith only (or anything else only) trivializes the word of God.&nbsp; The saved by this and that only or alone gospel is the "condenced, quick and instant&nbsp;easy to accept"&nbsp;gospel that appeals to the masses. I wonder what the Apostle Paul would say if he showed up at one&nbsp;todays modern evangelical&nbsp;salvation presentations?&nbsp;&nbsp;

 

[Thunderchild]

Ummm. (of a truth, very little is said...)
That comment was ironic, Franklin.

As to the bit about "baptism in the Holy Spirit" was never commanded - "Go into the world and baptise into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." - with baptism in water being only baptism into the name of the Son, the claim that the command was not given would seem to be incorrect. However, I will re-word the statement made earlier from "those who were baptised into the Holy Spirit were commanded to be baptised into the name of the Christ," to make it more clear "those who HAD ALREADY BEEN baptised into the Holy Spirit, were THEN commanded to be baptised into the name of the Christ." Acts 10: 44-48

Further to the statement about being baptised into the Holy Spirit without laying on of hands - is necessary to take into account Acts 8:14-17, where it is shown that the Apostles did in fact lay hands on people so that they could be baptised into the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thunderchild]

Now to those who claim that 1 Peter 3:20-21 doesn't say that we are saved by baptism.... (pointing to a police officer)

The police officer represents the law that now protects us.

This shows that the law is symbolic.

 

[eldermike]

How about let's ponder a hypothetical situation. We have 3 men on the international space laboratory right now as I write this. Let's say that one of them makes a decision to accept Jesus as savior. Just because He has now seen the earth from a different perspective and now knows that this is no accident. Lets say that one of the men is Christian and gives Him the gospel message. He confess with His mouth that he is a sinner and prays to accept Jesus into His heart.

Is He saved?

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by eldermike
How about let's ponder a hypothetical situation. We have 3 men on the international space laboratory right now as I write this. Let's say that one of them makes a decision to accept Jesus as savior. Just because He has now seen the earth from a different perspective and now knows that this is no accident. Lets say that one of the men is Christian and gives Him the gospel message. He confess with His mouth that he is a sinner and prays to accept Jesus into His heart. Is He saved?

Oooor how bout the thief on the cross?&nbsp; Oooor, how bout if someone dies in a car crash on his way to be baptized?&nbsp;The list of objections for an excuse&nbsp;not to be baptized is at least a mile long!&nbsp; Comeon elder, you can do better then that!&nbsp; give me a break and use some&nbsp;common sence and logic!&nbsp; &nbsp;

 

[eldermike]

Franklin,

How about an answer. Please do not question my common sense and logic, I will not question yours.

If you don't know the answer to my question, that is fine. But if you have an answer then that would be fine also.

Blessings

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by eldermike
Franklin,

How about an answer. Please do not question my common sense and logic, I will not question yours. If you don't know the answer to my question, that is fine. But if you have an answer then that would be fine also.&nbsp;

Jesus answered questions with questions many times to make a point in order to&nbsp;cause people to&nbsp;think!&nbsp; I'll answer yours this way.... If a person accepts Christ as his saviour with all his heart he has made it very evident that he has made a lifelong commitment to follow&nbsp;Him in obedience, however, he is in a situation where&nbsp;he is unable to be baptized but has all the intentions&nbsp;of doing so the first chance he gets as soon as possible do you think God is merciful enough to see this persons heart as&nbsp;someone who has meant business with God?&nbsp;&nbsp; I think I just&nbsp;asked you&nbsp;a question as well as&nbsp;given you&nbsp;the answer!&nbsp; Now it's up to&nbsp;you elder to think a little bit!&nbsp;&nbsp;All the arguments against baptizm isn't even based on&nbsp;scripture, it's mostly rooted in emotionalism!&nbsp; Emotionalism doesn't&nbsp;deal in common sence and logic!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The problem, however, is not what opinions that we hold with regard to&nbsp;all the different&nbsp;hypothetical cases.&nbsp; There are many such hypotheticals which the bible does not detail for us. For us to draw conclusions and base doctrine on these is clearly going beyond that which is written, and it is condemned in scripture&nbsp;(2 John 9): Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. That is the problem. For an entire body of doctrine is based upon the following syllogism:
Major premise: If one circumstance which constitutes an "exception to baptism" can be found, then baptism cannot possibly be essential to salvation, Minor premise: A person who is killed while on their way to being baptized is saved; therefore, Conclusion: Baptism is not essential to salvation.&nbsp; Do you see the problem with all these hypotheticals now mike?&nbsp; I hope I answered your questions......

 

[eldermike]

If a person accepts Christ as his saviour with all his heart he has made it very evident that he has made a lifelong commitment to follow Him in obedience, however, he is in a situation where he is unable to be baptized but has all the intentions of doing so the first chance he gets as soon as possible do you think God is merciful enough to see this persons heart as someone who has meant business with God?

Franklin, that is not an answer to my question, it's a question.
"as soon as possible" ? is that in scripture where it can be eaisly found?

Franklin, if you don't want to answer my question, it's ok, others can.
I know the answer.

Blessings

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by eldermike
Franklin, that is not an answer to my question, it's a question.
"as soon as possible" ? is that in scripture where it can be eaisly found? Franklin, if you don't want to answer my question, it's ok, others can. I know the answer.&nbsp;

I more then answered your questions, say good night&nbsp;and go back to bed&nbsp;elder!&nbsp;&nbsp;