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Is anyone concerned about these statements?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Br4nd0n, Mar 27, 2017.

  1. Br4nd0n

    Br4nd0n New Member

    I tried searches and havent found any threads addressing these issues. I may be wrong.

    Im not looking to trigger anyone and get into a heated debate, not what im looking for, but i just want to ask, honestly, just looking at the facts, dont these statements from the Pope cause at least a little bit of concern from anyone? It blows my mind how the supposed "voice" of Christ on earth is saying things like these.

    Pope says God isnt all powerful while endorsing evolution.

    Pope encourages people to be angry with God.

    Pope says you dont need Christ to go to heaven, but simply follow your conscience.

    Jews also do not need Christ to get into heaven

    Pope says Jesus was a sinner
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  2. MDC

    MDC Well-Known Member

    He's not the voice of Christ and never was. The Word of God should be the only foundational truth for all believers, not some man who claims to be the vicar of Christ
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  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    United States
    In Relationship
    Evolution is an acceptable position for Christians to maintain because there is nothing in Christianity that says we have to be anti-science. Young Earth Creationism is neither the orthodox nor some sort of default Christian belief; it is one position some Christians have.

    If we can't come before God in prayer when we are angry and confused, then He's not a very good God. Of course we should come before God in prayer, and be honest even if we are angry with Him. How is this controversial? We are sinners, and we are invited as sinners to pray to God in Christ's name.

    Didn't finish the video, but it sounds like Francis is in line with standard Catholic belief; which maintains the possibility of invincible ignorance.

    The belief that only Christians can be saved, or that all non-Christians will go to hell isn't a Christian belief, it's a belief held by some Christians; but it has never been the belief of the Christian Church which simply has no dogmatic position on such matters. As such, this seems like a Fundamentalist not liking non-Fundamentalist Christian views.

    Error when trying to play the video.

    No where in that video clip does Francis say that Jesus was a sinner who needed forgiveness from His mother. Here's another way of looking at Francis' words: Jesus, being righteous and obedient to God's Law, would have known the commandment to honor one's father and mother, and seeing as He brought distress to His mother would have done the right thing. This would speak of the Lord's perfect righteousness as being perfectly obedient to God's commandments.

    No, I don't find the comments made by Francis in these videos problematic, for the most part they are representative of consistent, traditional Christian beliefs. The only real reason to be bothered is if one subscribes to a Fundamentalist position. Since I'm not a Fundamentalist, that's not a problem for me.

  4. PloverWing

    PloverWing Episcopalian

    United States
    Mostly, these videos tell me that Pope Francis is a wiser interpreter of the Bible than the commentator in the video is. I think the Catholic church is in the hands of a very good chief pastor.
  5. Br4nd0n

    Br4nd0n New Member

    Always great thoughts from you.

    I dont think we will agree, but i will share my thoughts anyway.

    You didnt address how he said "God is not a magician that can do everything."
    the primary focus for me was him saying God couldnt do everything, and implying he was not all-powerful, and needed evolution to help fulfill creation.
    Im not anti-science either.
    But evolution isnt a science, its a theory with no evidence to back it up, and its responsible for killing a lot of peoples faith in God, As well as nazi philosophies that ended up killing people, being that the jews were considered "almost full ape" by the nazis, they had to kill them all to further propel the human race to higher tiers of evolution (to a nice blonde haired and blue eyed super race.) Its not a science, its a religion built on death, being portrayed as truth today to usurp the truth of creation

    I know people can feel angry about something else and bring it to God in humility and prayer, but it sounds to me like he is taking away all humility from prayer, encouraging people to be brave and get angry at God about the things He is not doing right in our lives. "Where were you when i layed the foundations of the earth?" comes to mind.

    John 14:6 i dont follow how "listening to your conscience" will get you into heaven as an atheist.
    Here is the video that didnt play, same thing, He is taking away Christ out of the equation for salvation. Thats insane.

    The need to "beg forgiveness" is fairly indicative of being a sinner in my eyes, but again, you have some great thoughts on the subjects. Thanks for your analysis.

    I myself am very concerned about this cat and the unbiblical things he says as the "vicar of Christ."
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    United States
    In Relationship
    I suspect that the intent was to point out that it would be wrong to think of God like some wizard snapping their fingers, rather than examining the natural world and seeing how God did design it and that the natural processes are reflective of God's creative work. I sincerely doubt that Francis rejects the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds, and the plethora of Scripture which speak of God as Almighty.

    Needless to say I disagree, and would say you are confusing the layman's use of the term "theory" with how it is used in science, as well as conflating evolution with "Social Darwinism". Beyond this such conversation should probably be for another thread and probably in the science boards where actual conversation on the science itself can be discussed.

    Would you rather someone be angry at God and keep it bottled up? I'm not saying we are justified in being angry at God, but "God, I'm angry at you" is at the very least a place to begin the healing process.

    Roman Catholic teaching is that there will be those who stand before God at the Judgment who never heard the Gospel, or may have been sold the Gospel falsely, and that this will be taken into account. Simply being a non-Christian doesn't mean one is damned, God is merciful and just. Thus Roman Catholic teaching speaks of what is known as "invincible ignorance"--one cannot be held accountable for something completely outside of their power. That's where one abiding by their conscience comes in; since the existence of the conscience is seen as a universal, or even what we might term prevenient grace; though that particular language is more associated with Arminian theology rather than Roman Catholic--that is a common grace by which human beings, by conscience, can recognize right and wrong, good and evil, etc. For Roman Catholics there can be no salvation apart from Christ, but it may be that there are those who, through no fault of their own, were unable to trust in Him; but they did seek to abide by conscience, and this will all be taken into account on the Day of Judgment.

    Here's the article I see in the beginning of the video:

    Vatican Reaffirms That Jews Can Go to Heaven

    I feel like this is probably a better place to start than a video where the person speaking seems hostile and perhaps not quite so impartial.

    The article addresses comments made by James Martin, which points such comments to the earlier work of Nostra Aetate.

    Specifically, the Roman Catholic Church's position seems to be summed up in this statement (the new document which is of concern here): "That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery."

    This seems to echo a statement we find in St. Paul's letter to the Romans that all Israel would be saved (actually looking at the article it mentions that as well).

    This still falls under the general heading that the Church (and by this I do not just mean the Roman Catholic Church, I mean the universal Christian Church) is not dogmatic about who does or doesn't "go to heaven"; it never has been. These questions have always existed throughout the history of Christianity.

    I can't say I would agree with everything being stated, but I'm not seeing anything that is particularly shocking or out of line with traditional, mainstream Christian thought.

    I'm not seeing the Pope saying God isn't Almighty, just that we should think more highly of God than as some kind of magician.

    I'm not seeing the Pope saying that Jesus was a sinner, but that Jesus' actions made His parents worry.

  7. Br4nd0n

    Br4nd0n New Member

    My points are all valid on how the theory of evolution is destroying society and faith in God. I wasnt combining evolution with social darwinism as you stated, I said it was the cause of it.
    Everything here coming out of the popes mouth, sounds blasphemous, as i stand by my first response. Its obviously open to both our interpretations. Thanks again.

    *I have to add, I appreciate the care you give to your responses, great job.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  8. Philip_B

    Philip_B grace upon grace Supporter

    To me, one of the important things about Jesus, and in a way I think this is what Pope Francis is getting at, is that love costs, and God's love costs God deeply, and the incarnation of God in Christ Jesus, is not a party trick, an illusion, a slight of hand, but a genuine and costly embrace of all humanity, standing in absolute solidarity with us. God's answers are real answers, born of the dust of the earth and raised heaven in glory. It is easy when listening to a preacher to hear what they say wrong, the real trick for all of us is to hear what they say, and more importantly to hear what God is saying to us in the message.

    Beloved let us love one another, because love is of God.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  9. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

    United States
    If it were a homeless man claiming these things nobody would bat an eye. It would just be his opinion.
    The pope is not above anyone else in this world in the spiritual sense. Only in office and power granted by the world system.
    Those words were just his opinion on matters. Some of his opinions are great, other I would disagree with but he deserves our full respect to have them.
  10. Exodus712

    Exodus712 New Member

    United States
    Get angry at God? Did Job ever get angry? This is the creator of the universe.
  11. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

    Christian Seeker
    Not concerning at all. Expected.

    This is only the same thing catholic thought was in the first through third centuries (and beyond).

    Ignatius, Tertullian, Irenaeus. It's just the Pharisee's and Sadducee's incarnate.

    Once the Nicene Creed was in place, the Roman (Catholic) Church changed much of Christs teachings. Constantine "could" be extremely wealthy and murder, and become a saint over most men.

    And Christians who would rather die than accept this lie were killed and their books (all but) destroyed.

    You'll know them by their fruits. Bishop of Bling, 800 clergy (Priests) child molesters excommunicated (from 2005-2013), and on and on.

    For the first time, Vatican releases wide-ranging statistics on priests defrocked over rape and child abuse

    I can only blame the Priests for ignorance of God the Father. They need to become born of the spirit rather than follow ritualistic performances.