Is America the beast from the land (Rev. 13)?

[Hal A Peno]

gfh

 

[Marilyn C]

If not, why not, or if you think this is a ridiculous suggestion, what are your reasons? I am interested in hearing them.

Hi stillwaters,

I agree that the `land` is figurative for the people, however that would be the people of the world, as this refers to a Global government. The False Prophet, this second `beastly` character, has 2 horns, denoting 2 powers, over - religion and economics.

As to America, it is part of the `Lion with eagle wings` Federation. Britain and America work together and are the ones speaking `peace & safety,` the mouth of the final composite beastly Global Government.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Beasts are world empires in Daniel. Why would they be something different? Where does the grammar of Rev 17 say this?

In Daniel 7, the beasts coming out of the sea are kingdoms. But there are 4 notable kings to be associated with each of those kingdoms.

In Revelation 13, the number of the beast is said to be a number of a man - not kingdom.

So the first beast coming out of the sea, in addition to being the fourth kingdom as it appears in the end times, is that notable king, associated with the fourth kingdom.

Coming out of the sea is commonly thought to be coming out of the nations. Conversely, the second beast, coming out of the earth is commonly thought to be coming out of Israel.
______________________________________________________________________________
The seven kings and ten kings are different in that the seven kings are sequential, that is, one follows the other. Six of the seven kings are historic to us. It is only the seventh king remaining.

The ten kings, on the other hand, ruled concurrently with each other, and in the end times. We know that they are end times, because in Revelation 13, the ten horns, the ten kings, have their crowns - with 42 months left in the 7 years. Revelation 13:5

 

[Ken Rank]

I didn't compile the page, I forgot who did.

A million Sudanese were murdered in the Sudan between 97- 99. Over 5,000 villages and 15,000 churches were burned, all at the hands of Muslim's and it was hardly reported on. The average Christian has no clue about Islam and the atrocities they commit on a daily basis.

Yes, I know... that was my point.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Why not? Because 99.9% of Revelations happened in the Apostles generation.

According to an apparently possible "preterist" interpretation of Revelations, swiftly summarized, the Christian conquering figure (Rev 19) was manifested physically in Christian emperor Constantine, the Millennium (Rev 20) was corporealized in the (admittedly shaky) unity of Medieval Christendom during the thousand-year Christian Byzantine empire, whose fall in 1453 AD ushered in the End Times (Rev 20:7-9) characterized, as Prophetically predicted, by a mass "apostasy" away from a united Church, down a slippery slope of Schism and "whatever thou willest" Protestantism, ultimately over the cliff off into secular "Leftist" Marxism.

Accordingly, viewing anything existing today as the "scarlet red beast" (Rev 13) requires manually revising the Scriptural timeline by about 1500 years or so.

 

[black.hawk]

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[black.hawk]

Also, do you feel that the US has begun to speak as a "dragon" ?

The "dragon" refers to the Devil who is called Satan. To speak as a "dragon" means that the Beast is not Satan, but is compared with the Devil.

This means that America could well speak as a "dragon" if its political rhetoric is Anti-Christ or inimical to God's will or purpose.

 

[Hal A Peno]

jh

 

[Ronald]

Glad to see we are on the same page and of the same mind. I just dug up some old files, I didn't edit it to update countries and kings...

FIVE ARE FALLEN....is a mistake, ARE is present, fallen is past!

The word ARE is a third person plural present indicative. This passage isn't a reflection of PAST world empires. It is a picture of a complete end-time entity. There are seven kings, "FIVE FALL" is the correct translation. That's how it's worded in the interlinear. Just like the four beast Daniel prophesy's about in Daniel 7, these kings are all present on earth at the same time. Take a look...
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/rev17.pdf
This is how it look in the interlinear...
...AND KINGS SEVEN ARE THE FIVE FALL AND THE ONE IS THE other NOT- as- yet CAME AND when-EVER he-MAY-BE-COMING FEW(briefly) him it-IS BINDING TO-REMAIN...

The word fallen doesn't mean to have died. It means to to descend from a higher place to a lower.

Kings that have already fallen from the current apostasy are...
Saddam Hussein-------------Iraq. Who I say could return as Nebuchadnezzars fulfillment of the 70 year prophecy "and when the 70 years are completed.", "the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Possible candidates...
Saddam Hussein---------------Iraq
Hosni Mubarak---------------Egypt
Moammar Gadhafi-----------Lybia
Ben Ali--------------------------Tunsinia
Ali Abdullah Saleh------------Yemen
These five have already fallen. I don't know if they are the 5 mentioned in Rev. 17.10.

Bashar Al-Assad--------------Syria...and one is. He's not going anywhere until Damascus is destroyed.
Ahmadinnejad------------------Iran
King Abdullah------------------Saudi Arabia

These are some if not most of the kings that are fallen in verse 10,

The 10 kings mentioned in verse 12 are probably people that already exist whether currently in power or not. Some possibilities are Abdullah Gul of Turkey, Amadinnejad of Iran, Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, Talabani of Iraq, Asif Ali Zardari of Pakistan, Abdullah of Jordan, Mohamed Morsi,> Egypt, Mohammed Yusuf Magariaf >Yemen, Moncef Marzouki >Tunisia,...or any that replace these people. These countrys surround Israel. Other possibilities are the countries mentioned in Psalm 83. man of sin is the one that fell in the kings mentioned in verse 10 and the beast that was and is not and yet lives... the one who gets these kings of countries surrounding Israel to unite. This is the covenant with many. Israel isn't part of it other than being under the persecution of the Assyrian anti-christ.

Thank you for dispelling the idea that these leaders and kingdoms are past historical ones. Rev. 17:12, 13 states that ten kings receive power from the antichrist in ONE HOUR and they have ONE MIND. Obviously, these kings are all in the present generation. It is also worth noting that radical Islam (the 80 + terrorist groups that are on the jihad warpath) all have the same agenda/one mind. This agenda is to annihilate Israel, convert the entire planet to Islam and kill the infidels who oppose them.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

If not, why not, or if you think this is a ridiculous suggestion, what are your reasons? I am interested in hearing them.

There was a similar thread yesterday which I did not participate in. There is some overlapping powers and principalities between the Vatican and the US. Look at the Vatican and you wonder why they imported the largest Obelisk found in ancient Egypt and erected it there with a reflection pool and a domed building out front. If you dig into this you will see masonic Illuminati influences going way back. There is a documentary called the hidden faith of our founding fathers by Chris Pinto that is very good about looking way back and bringing the influences up to our current day that are shaping the NWO.
This being said there is not much to go on to claim the US is the beast in REv 13. A much better case can be made for US being the great city Babylon that is destroyed in a single day. If you look at the description of this place all the merchants weep for they were made rich through selling the luxury goods of the world to her. Also she is accused of being thee nation that all the other nations committed fornication with and is guilty of exporting all kinds of evil. The US fits all of these and if you compare to Iraq they do not have this reputations and the merchants would not be effected if it were destroyed in a single day. If you go to Zech 6 and look up the vision of the woman with a basket lifted up by 2 birds and set on a pedestal in the land of Shinar. Shinar is Babylon. The statue of Liberty was carried by 2 nations France and the US both are symbols of birds. Its construction was unique in that the form is made of a basket weave then the outer layer attached, It was lifted up and set on a pedestal. This figure is also a masonic symbol. If we are close to these events the US makes sense to be Babylon. If not we could fade and another rise to this position.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If not, why not, or if you think this is a ridiculous suggestion, what are your reasons? I am interested in hearing them.

No IMO.

But America may well be economic Babylon from Revelation 18.

 

[Douggg]

I know what you're saying and I don't accept it. It just doesn't set well with me that the 6 of the HEADS are sequencial and six are historic.

Apparently you don't know what I am saying....

The 7 heads, not 6, are sequential. All 7 kings are sequential.

Five fallen, one is - at the time of John, 1st century. One, yet to come of John's time.

They are:
king 1 - Julius Caesar
king 2 - Augustus Caesar
king 3 - Tiberius
king 4 - Caligula
king 5 - Claudius
king 6 - Nero..... last of the Julio-Claudian family, group of kings

king 7 - yet to come, the little horn person, descended from the Julio-Claudian family group of kings.

People in your camp can't agree on this either. Some say Egypt is the first head, some say Assyria.

Those people are NOT in my camp. They change the words of the text from

Again, you believe this because you believe in a global dictator a one world government and religion.

I have be writing what I believe, and it hasn't soaked in to you yet, because you MISREPSENT me at every turn.

I did not says one world government. I have not said one world religion. I have not said global dictator.

I explained that the person doesn't start out as the beast. He begins as the little horn, then becomes the prince who shall come, then becomes the Antichrist, then he reveals himself as the man of sin ending his time as the Antichrist, then becomes the beast in Revelation.

The person starts out as the leader of the EU, the 7th king, the 7th head. When he is killed after being the Antichrist and after he reveals himself as the man of sin, he is brought back to life - as the 8th king of the Roman Empire. of the Julio-Claudian bloodline.

There are NO 8 heads, that an eighth head becomes a king. The beast itself is the 8th king, having been of the seven, king 7 specifically.

This world will never UNITE! The man of sin is said to enter in peaceably. Do you really think ONE or TWO men would somehow convince every government and religion on planet earth to unite under one mad with some sort of 10/7 alliance?? That's what causes WAR!

I never said one world government. The world will be aligned during that last 42 months, into the four quadrants, north, south, east, west. As that is what is indicated in Daniel 11, the battles at the end of the 7 years.

Of those four quadrants, the west lead by the EU and the ten kings of the EU, the power base of the beast - will be the dominate force over the other three quadrants.

David Hocking says he believes the ten horns in Revelation 17 are likely all on one head. I disagree as thta would be such a significant enough of a difference that I believe John would have noticed and documented it. The heads, the horns, the harlot all represents end-time things. NOTHING in these visions are historical.

David Hocking is wrong. The beast has ten horns - not ten horns on a head. The beast in Daniel 7, has ten horns, the same ten horns as in Revelation.

The difference between Daniel 7 and Revelation is that in Revelation, additional information is presented about the little horn in Revelation. So the little horn is one of the heads, the seventh head. He will be the seventh king in the line of Julio-Claudian kings. Revelation is giving his lineage, and how he is from the people the who destroyed the temple and city.

The kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece had fallen by John's time. Using them in a vision depicting the heads as sequencial ancient world empires makes no sense.
THE ONLY REASON WHY YOU'VE BEEN TAUGHT 6 OF THE HEADS ARE HISTORICAL WORLD EMPIRES IS BECAUSE INTERPRETERS BELIEVE THIS TO BE A WORLD EMPIRE!

You are all mixed up. I am not the one who been saying anything about the heads being world empires

For John to have a vision that prophesy's about of an end-time beast, only to have some of the elements of the beast be several thousands of years old, actually makes him a false prophet since a prophet cannot prophesy about kings (kingdoms not explicitly implied) that have already passed. The words ARE and FALL (not fallen or have fallen) indicates they are all end-time KINGS!

Just stop with the John or Daniel being a false prophet because others here disagree with you.

And what bible translation are you using that says "FALL" in Revelation 17:10 ?

KJV
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

five are fallen - meaning at the time of John, 1st century, five are fallen. They are historic.

one is - meaning the sixth was ruling at the time of John, 1st century.

the other is not yet come - meant future of John, who was living the 1st century.

 

[Hal A Peno]

srth

 

[Hal A Peno]

dghj

 

[Douggg]

Two words for that, PIPE DREAM. I just makes no sense that to explain an end-time empire John would use heads as Roman kings when ROME isn't mentioned in ONE verse of end-time prophecy, and the beast and harlot aren't Roman connected! You don't get it! Rome isn't found anywhere in prophecy YET YOU BELIEVE IT ANYWAY!

Two of those Julio-Claudian kings are mentioned by name in the gospels. Augustus Caesar in Luke 2:1 Tiberius in Luke 3:1,2

And please stop say John would use heads, etc - John is quoting what the angel said to him. John is not expressing his own thoughts.

I'll stop with you calling Daniel a false prophet when you realize a prophet cannot prophesy about a kingdom rising that HAD RISEN 50 YEARS BEFORE! I'll stop when you people STOP coming up with interpretations that are so bad that an Atheist knows better and uses YOUR INTERPRETATION to DEBUNK Daniel and the bible! YOU DON"T CARE because, YOU'VE DEBUNKED YOURSELF!

You need to stop saying Daniel is a false prophet - period. Jesus said Daniel the prophet. That's it. Daniel is a prophet. Not a false prophet.
.

 

[Jim Langston]

If not, why not, or if you think this is a ridiculous suggestion, what are your reasons? I am interested in hearing them.

No. Revelation 18 describes America perfectly. No other country even comes close to fitting. America is Babylon The Great, there is no denying it for a reasonable Christian.

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance [1] of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine [2] wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, [3]and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[VARZR]

I do not think that America is a part of the earth beast. I think the earth beast is the antichrist and the false prophet.

I don't think the United States is mentioned clearly in the Bible. I do not believe the United States is mystery babylon. I think Mecca and Saudi Arabia fit the full description better especially when you take in the old testament passages.

I think your best bet of reading the US in the Bible is the ships of Kittim that oppose the antichrist.

I think the US is probably also included in Rev 8:7 and is probably part of the third of the Earth that is burnt up. I feel that this part of Revelation is most likely describing a large nuclear exchange between the US and Russia.

 

[Anguspure]

If not, why not, or if you think this is a ridiculous suggestion, what are your reasons? I am interested in hearing them.

No. It is difficult to even read the US of A into the text anywhere, just as it is difficult to find the Church on earth as we know it, beyond the 7 letters. Now China aka the Kings of the East, on the other hand, that is a world power to be reckoned with that features strongly.

 

[Revealing Times]

If not, why not, or if you think this is a ridiculous suggestion, what are your reasons? I am interested in hearing them.

No, of course not. The Beast from the Sea are all Gentile Nations. The Land always refers to Israel, the Holy Land/Promised Land. The False Prophet exudes a strong hint at and Israeli person by the very name, False Prophet, hence it will be a Jew, there were no "Prophets" that were not Jewish !! So a False Prophet is a Jewish Man, he will be some kind of Rabbi it seems, or one that claims to be a Prophet of God, hence the False Moniker.

So he will be a Jew and more than likely from Israel at the time. It has nothing to do with the USA.

America is not the beast rising from the earth in Revelation 13.

The second beast that rises from the earth is Lucifer the Devil, our end time Antichrist. Lucifer is going to be allowed to appear as a man for the last 5 months prior to the second coming.

The first beast rises from the sea. But it's not really the sea. The sea is symbolic for many peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.

The second beast rises up from the earth, but it's not really the earth. The second beast does not have an earthly origin, it has a heavenly origin. The earth is a heavenly designated geological area that by default becomes a holy place. "Take off your sandals, for the ground where you are standing is holy".

Sea of Gentiles, since the Land is always referring to the Holy Land and its peoples. We have to many people that make these things too complex, and over analyze.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Lucifer was cast down into the earth, he and his angels will rise up out of the earth at the 5th trumpet and be allowed to manifest themselves in our realm for the last 5 months of the tribulation.

To the first beast he gives his power, his throne and great authority.

This is about something much bigger than the United States, or the Church of Rome.

Lucifer/Satan will be cat out of Heaven at the Midway point of Jacobs Troubles, this is not in question, Daniel 12:1-2 tells us this along with Rev. ch. 12. The 5th Trumpet releases Apollyon from the pit, that is what it says, not Satan.

The RCC/Papacy has nothing to do with this, that's a fallacy.

The great tribulation ends in the 6th seal. It will be time for the 7th trumpet.

Jacobs Troubles is the 70th Week.

The First Seal is the beginning of Gods Wrath, the Seventh Vial will end Gods Wrath. That takes 3.5 years.

Why does it have to be the second Rome? Did the first really die off?

It's not so much the Second Rome but the Little Horn arises out of the Same Land Mass pretty much as what Rome amassed. The same peoples (Europeans) will be in this coming Kingdom. Also the Roman Beast was still a great kingdom when Israel became basically "Extinct" in Gods eyes, it was Ezekiel's prophecy come true in AD 70-125 AD, Israel was as "Dead Men's Bones" and thus they were no more. Without an Israel, you can not have a Beast, so basically this was the Mortal Wound, hence when the Little Horn conquers Jerusalem, the Beast will come alive again. But that could not have happened had Israel bit been reborn, thus Ezekiel's prophecy came true again, Son of Man, can these Bones live again? And of Course those bones are alive today via the Nation Israel.

Now as soon as this European Little Horn conquers Jerusalem/Israel the Seventh Head of the BEAST will be set in motion for his 42 Month rule. If you read Daniel 7 properly, you will see Gabriel gives us this clue in verses 23 and 24:

In verse 23 it says the Fourth Beast will be Different from All the Beasts, this shouldn't surprise anyone because in verse 3 it says All the Beasts will be different from one another. So in reality all four Beasts were different from each other, BUT, verse 24 tells a different story.

It says the Little Horn that arises with the 10 Kings shall be DIFFERENT from the FIRST........Not all, but from the FIRST, implying that there are two from one Kingdom, a First and a Second, and that of course is the case. We have Rome the Fourth Beast, which ceases being a BEAST when Israel is dispersed, then we have the 10 European Kings that arise, and this Little Horn arises and they give him their power, or lets say this Man is born in Greece and then becomes the European President (They Give him heir Power).

So the Fourth Beast is a Great Power, they Cease to be a Beast when Israel is no more, then the Little Horn arises out of this Fourth Kingdom in the END TIMES, but he also arises out of one of the Four Generals Kingdoms that took over for Alexander the Great in the LATTER TIMES. Does this fit? Can this fit? Of course it can, because Greece is in he European Union. Greece is the ONLY PLACE that this Anti-Christ Little Horn can be born.

Why not Judea in Israel. After all, Rome did destroy the great City of Jerusalem in ad70.
So land beast= Judea, where Satan's throne is... Sea Beast = Rome and rest of the Heathens

The Land is Israel but I wouldn't worry about the "Throne of Satan" mention by Jesus to Pergamum. He was speaking specifically about the Temple to Zeus which the Romans built in Pergamum. You see Zeus (which later became Jupiter) was the God of the Greeks called Belios (Zeus) which they got from Babylon who called him BEL, and they got the god Bel from Canaan who called him BAAL.

So Zeus the supposed Greek Mythology they teach out kids is nothing but Satan himself, thus it was called the "Throne of Satan". That Temple was discovered by a German Scientists in like 1870 and they did a DIG/TEL and moved the whole Temple. Throne of Satan to Berlin where it is today. Funny thing is Hitler had a Replica of it created in Nuremberg and that is where he gave many of his "Crazed Speeches" from, believe it or not. The Reel that we always see where the NAZI Emblem is blown up on the top of the building, is the Replica Throne of Satan.

Check out these 2 videos.

 

[Hal A Peno]

srtfgh