Is allah the "proper noun" name of God?

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Islam_mulia

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I will try to be short and straight to the point:

1. Liberate used Edward Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (see the OP) and claimed the lexicon "stands alone as a classic masterpiece, simply for it's meticulous precision done over a 34 year period".

2. The same Edward Lane Lexicon claimed in page 83 that the word 'Allah' is a proper noun (Liberate even underlined this).

3. Edward Lane wrote in page 83 that the word 'Allah' is not derived or is it originally 'ilaha' or 'ilaaha'. Liberate, pls explain this.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I will try to be short and straight to the point:

1. Liberate used Edward Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (see the OP) and claimed the lexicon "stands alone as a classic masterpiece, simply for it's meticulous precision done over a 34 year period".

2. The same Edward Lane Lexicon claimed in page 83 that the word 'Allah' is a proper noun (Liberate even underlined this).

3. Edward Lane wrote in page 83 that the word 'Allah' is not derived or is it originally 'ilaha' or 'ilaaha'. Liberate, pls explain this.
Hi. Interesting enough the hebrew word "allah" is used one time in the OT/OC and it was when Joshua raised the book of the Law of God under an "oak tree". :)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

(Young) Joshua 24:26 And Joshua writeth these words in the Book of the Law of God, and taketh a great stone, and raiseth it up there under the oak which [is] in the sanctuary of Jehovah/LORD.

0427 'allah {al-law'}
variation of 0424; TWOT - 100a; n m
AV - oak 1; 1
1) oak
2) terebinth
 
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ummuIsa

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
Ilaah means a god; Allaah mentions in the Qur`aan that there are other gods that people make for themselves (i.e. people, wealth, celestrial bodies, etc). "We wronged them not, but they wronged themselves. So their aaliha (gods), other than Allaah, whom they invoked, profited them naught when there came the Command of your Lord, nor did they add aught (to their lot) but destruction." [11:101] That is why He Says that there in none worthy of worship except Him; New moon is translated as hilaal; Someone who is worshipped and agrees to this is a taaghoot. None of these words (ilaah, hilaal, taaghoot) even share the same root word so I do not see how they can at all be connected.

This is standard islamic apologetics to dismiss a claim without ever looking at it.
If you have read any of my other posts you know that I do not water down or twist the teachings of Islaam. The Truth is the truth, either it is accepted or it is not. If it is, all praise is for Allaah, and it is for the benefit of that person's soul. If it is not, then Allaah guides whom He wills, and he will have to answer for himself just as I will have to answer for myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
Yes, Allaah is an Ilaah, He is THE Ilaah, hence Allaah (al-Ilaah).

I suggest you have this argument with Islam_mullia, allah being contracted from al-ilah was never the argument I said Lane implied. You only prove whichever way you look at it the root ilah damns the god of islam. (I am well aware that the majority of modern muslims say allah is contracted from al-ilah, this is not what I am saying Lane says, but I am asking what the root of allah is)
I do not argue. One of my most favorite quotes is, "As for me, I know my religion. If you have lost yours then go and look for it."

Now I still do not understand how you are saying that the word ilaah (a God, which Allaah is) proves some kind of negative connotation about Allaah. Please explain it to me as if you were writing a book called, "the root ilah damns the god of islam for dummies." (and ilaah is not a root, it is a word)

Allaah is Allaah's personal name. He has many attributes and is known by many names so that the believers may get to know and understand him but His name is Allaah. Both words, ilaah & Allaah, comes from the root word alaha.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberate
Ofcourse westernized moderate mulsims would like to tell you islam even says if you do good works you are going to paradise, regardless of your religious persuasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
Yes, there are Muslims who say this and I don't know if its because this is their understanding of Allaah's verses (which we are not to interpret using our own understanding) or because they don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings. But only those who 'believe' (meaning Islaam) AND do good deeds will be granted Paradise.

At least you are honest in that respect, since you state muslims are not to interpret the quran with their own understanding, would you care to state which madzhab you follow? (No relevance at all to the discussion, just out of curiousity, it's a little like getting blood from a stone to get muslims here to state the madzhab they follow, as much of what they say contradicts what you have just said about interpreting the quran with their own understanding, as they more than often do just that, without the authority to do so).
I do not follow any particular madhhaab. I follow the Qur`aan & the authenticated Sunnah (authentic narrations only) and I understand it according to the way the Messenger explained it to his Companions. In other words, I am a Salafee.



Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
Why convert to Islaam? Because it is the only religion that will be accepted on the Last Day. And as far as being judged upon good deeds alone, no one will make it to Paradise solely based on their deeds. The Messenger said that no one enters Paradise except by Allaah's Mercy (may Allaah grant His unlimited Mercy to all of the believers in this life & the next, aameen). And why is that?? Because none of us are sinless and if you commit even one sin you have disobeyed Allaah and He is liable and Just in doing so, to punish you

It is interesting you understand the concept that God is holy, and good deeds, mean nothing, christianity has a similar concept, but where we differ is instead of Mohammed not knowing where he is going, the instigator of our faith knows precisely where He is going, and even islam states Jesus is coming back to judge.
I never said that good deeds mean nothing, of course they do. What I said was that they are not the only reason that we will be granted Jannah. Why, because none of us have never committed a sin. And if you have commiteed even one sin and you know you were disobeying the Creator (which most of the time we do know) then you are liable to be punished for your disobedience and Allaah will be Just in doing so. That is why we need Allaah's Forgiveness and Mercy. The Messenger said that doing good deeds are still necessary: "
We were in the company of the Prophet and he said, "There is none among you but has his place written for him, either in Paradise or in the Hell-Fire." We said, "O Allaah's Messenger! Shall we depend (on this fact and give up work)?" He replied, "No! Carry on doing good deeds, for everybody will find easy (to do) such deeds as will lead him to his destined place." Then the Prophet recited: 'As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allaah, and believes in the Best reward. We will make smooth for him the path of ease....the path for evil.' (92.5-10)" [Bukhaaree Book of Exegesis #4620 listed at spubs.com]


Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
. So there is not one of us who would make it to Paradise on our deeds alone.




Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
This is why Allaah, again being Merciful,

I have not seen any explicit evidence of allah's mercy except to excuse Mohammed for his various infidelities; i.e when caught in bed with Mariam Hafsa's slave maid in sura 66, which Aisha and Hafsa came up against him for, and he needed the help of allah to sanction his infidelity by having allah say "why forbid what has been made lawful for you" (i.e to continue sleeping with Mariam, after promising Hafsa he wouldn't do it again, when she caught him in the act). Where is the mercy for homosexuals? for pagans? for first time theives? who have their limbs decapitated, where is the mercy for women imprisoned when unable to provide four witnesses to have seen the act of penetration before convicting anyone of raping them? But are instead imprisoned for indirectly admitting to zina (intercourse outside of marriage). Where is the mercy for apostates who are given three days to revert or face death?
#1- The first three verses are in relation to an incident in which the Messenger had spent an extended times with one of his wives (Zaynab bint Jahsh) and while there he had drinken a drink made out of honey. `Aa'ishah being `Aa'ishah became jealous. She and Hafsah were close so she had Hafsah help her with a plot against the Messenger, hoping this would keep him from staying too long with Zaynab. She asked him if he had eaten a certain type of food because his breath smelled bad. The Messenger was very vigilant about keeping his mouth clean and she knew this would disturb him so he vowed not to drink the honey anymore. This is why Allaah said that he has made something lawful forbidden just to please his wives. And no one has the authority to make the lawful unlawful and vice versa except Allaah. This is why the two wives (`Aa'ishah & Hafsah) were also admonished in the subsequent verses.

#2- The Messenger was upright and never committed adultery or any other heinous act, unlike what is recorded about some of the Prophets in your Book (and we don't belive that about them either).

#3- How could the Messenger commit infidelity when Maryam was lawful to him. She was sent to him as a gift and he kept her as a right hand possession. They even had a son together, Ibraheem, who died in infancy.

#4- As for Allaah's Mercy, it is mentioned and shown throughout the Qur`aan and Sunnah of Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam). If you cannot see it, then it is not my fault that Allaah has put a covering over your heart.

#5- As for punishment then it is lawful and I agree with it totally. If you are not a criminal then there is nothing for you to be concerned about and if you commit the crime knowing the punishment and you are caught then you deserve to be punished. Maybe if you (a general you) would not have allowed the separation of church and state and you would have kept to the Creator's laws instead of the laws of men crime wouldn't be so rampant.

#6- As for people being charged with and found guilty of crimes without sufficient evidence then that is not the fault of Islaam, because the laws of Islaam are clear, they are the fault of those in charge and they are going against the Qur`aan & the Sunnah. As for first time theives, they are not to be amputated. Amputation is for those who have already been warned (I don't know how many warnings they get). Nor is it for those who are stealing out of absolute need ( ex. a hungry person who has no other means to get food).



Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
mulitiples the reward of the good deed but counts the bad deed as only one bad deed.



So you believe your good deeds will outweigh your bad deeds? Which part of your madzhabs says this? Suppose your bad deeds are really bad, suppose you are a murderer? or a thief how is that ranked on the eternal scales of judgement?
I never said that my good deeds outweigh my bad or even that they will. None of us knows what our outcome will be. I, like everyone else, do not know in what state I will die. I live my life between hope and fear. I hope for Allaah's Mercy, Forgiveness and His Paradise (and do deeds accordingly) but I also have fear that I won't (because I am not without sin).



Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmIsa
Allaah is truly without a doubt the Greatest...

Islam also says allah is "the lord of devils" How do you understand this phrase?
This is rather simple and self explanatory, to me. Allaah is the Creator of all that exists, which includes mankind, angels and jinns. The devils (shayateen are made up of mn and jinn since shaytann means an evil, rebellious person. If Allaah is Creator and therefore Lord of all that exists then He is also the devils Lord also. They, including Shaytaan, is going to be judged just like everybody else. Does Christianity teach that Shaytaan and his followers are autonomous and not under God's authority and rule??
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I suggest you have this argument with Islam_mullia, allah being contracted from al-ilah was never the argument I said Lane implied. You only prove whichever way you look at it the root ilah damns the god of islam. (I am well aware that the majority of modern muslims say allah is contracted from al-ilah, this is not what I am saying Lane says, but I am asking what the root of allah is)

It is interesting you understand the concept that God is holy, and good deeds, mean nothing, christianity has a similar concept, but where we differ is instead of Mohammed not knowing where he is going, the instigator of our faith knows precisely where He is going, and even islam states Jesus is coming back to judge.
#2- The Messenger was upright and never committed adultery or any other heinous act, unlike what is recorded about some of the Prophets in your Book (and we don't belive that about them either).
Which prophets were those?

Mark 11:17 Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for All Nations'? But You have made it a 'den of thieves.' "
zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Y@hovah of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite/merchant in the House of Y@hovah of hosts.
 
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Diamonds2004

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To the original poster, Liberate.

The Arabic language has some sematic similarites with Hebrew and a few other Middle-eastern languages. "Liberate", has done some good research and I appreciate that. Just remember, the origin of a word and its original use by Arabs in Saudi Arabia back in the 600's A.D. in reference to idol worship is no reason to condemn the word when it is used by Muslims as a single word used for name reference. Even Christians in the Middle-east, especially Coptic Chrisrtians in Eygpt, use the word "Allah/ "the God" in speaking in churches. The word is simply using properly pronouced Arabic and correct semantics of the Arabic language.

That previous point was a disagreeing point, but I do agree with "Liberate" on this, the word "Allah" and then claiming that it the literal name of the one and only Creator is not so. The word Allah is simply the proper word in the Arabic language used to refer to the one and only Creator; It is divorced from holy conotations of an eternal past literal name of the one and only Creator. (If you are unsure of what I mean in the last sentence, then please PM me for clarification. This is the best that I can think of how to say it for the current time in fewest words)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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To the original poster, Liberate.

The Arabic language has some sematic similarites with Hebrew and a few other Middle-eastern languages. "Liberate", has done some good research and I appreciate that. Just remember, the origin of a word and its original use by Arabs in Saudi Arabia back in the 600's A.D. in reference to idol worship is no reason to condemn the word when it is used by Muslims as a single word used for name reference. Even Christians in the Middle-east, especially Coptic Chrisrtians in Eygpt, use the word "Allah/ "the God" in speaking in churches. The word is simply using properly pronouced Arabic and correct semantics of the Arabic language.

That previous point was a disagreeing point, but I do agree with "Liberate" on this, the word "Allah" and then claiming that it the literal name of the one and only Creator is not so. The word Allah is simply the proper word in the Arabic language used to refer to the one and only Creator; It is divorced from holy conotations of an eternal past literal name of the one and only Creator. (If you are unsure of what I mean in the last sentence, then please PM me for clarification. This is the best that I can think of how to say it for the current time in fewest words)
Thanks for that clarification.
So what is the difference between the Jewish's LORD God, the Muslim Allah and the Christian's LORD God? :eek:

Exodus 7:1 So Y@hovah/LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you [as] 'elohiym/God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.

Matthew 26:57 And those who had laid hold of Jesus led [Him] away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

I did find this site interesting and pertains to this topic [I only quoted part of it]:

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061116103448AAojo8P
Jews and Muslims have same god

...........................So as we clearly see from the above Verses from the NIV Bible, the original name for GOD Almighty is not "Yahweh". The title "The LORD" is only a title and a nick name (if you will) that we give to GOD Almighty. But "Yahweh" is definitely NOT THE ORIGINAL NAME for GOD Almighty.

"Allah" on the other hand is a name. It is the name of GOD Almighty. Below, you will see ample proofs from the Aramaic language that the name of GOD Almighty was indeed "Allah".

"GOD" in Arabic and Aramaic sound the same, and it is "Allah".

Jesus peace be upon him spoke Aramaic during his ministry.

"Allah" is GOD's Name, "Elaw" means "GOD" in Aramaic: How can they be the same? I clearly proved from the Noble Quran that "Allah" means the Supreme GOD Almighty in Arabic.

How can a title beginning with "the" be a name?

Beside the crystal clear proofs above about Yahweh or Jehovah being just a title or "appellation" (Exodus 3:15) for GOD Almighty, I would like to raise this simple question, and simple common sense test:

How can any title that begins with "the" be a name?

If I call you "the man", as it is a common slang for a person to be called that here in the US, would that really make your name "the man"?

A Christian just recently told me that in Hebrew, Yahweh not only means "The LORD" or the "The GOD", but it also means "The Eternal" (according to the New Dictionary of the Bible). That's all perfect with me.

The Eternal, Yahweh or Jehovah, means "Al-Samad" in Arabic. Allah Almighty called Himself "Al-Samad" in the Noble Quran (Noble Verse 112:2). I am willing to address Allah Almighty from now on by the "Al-Samad" title (Yahweh in Hebrew) and not by "Allah Almighty" (His Holy Name) if that's going to make Christians understand Islam and embrace it! :eek: :) ......................................
 
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ummuIsa

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Lot commits incest: Genesis 19:30-38

David commits adultery, gets the woman pregnant, tries to cover it up by having her husband sleep with her & when that doesn't work he has the woman's husband killed: 2 Samuel 11: 2-15

Solomon slept with many, many women: 1 Kings 11:1-3

Noah curses his son for having covered his nakedness: Genesis 9:20-25

In Islaam, we honour our Prophets and do not attribute such terrible crimes to them (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all).
 
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Exegete12

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As you see it is a long story but YHWH is an artificial name.In fact this word is not a name.

.....

Peace
I think the Jews would beg to differ on that.

BTW is Allah ever mentioned in the Book of Enoch.

Is Allah then Yahweh? If not, then Christians and Jews do not worship the same God as Muslims.
 
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Exegete12

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Exegete12

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Lot commits incest: Genesis 19:30-38

David commits adultery, gets the woman pregnant, tries to cover it up by having her husband sleep with her & when that doesn't work he has the woman's husband killed: 2 Samuel 11: 2-15

Solomon slept with many, many women: 1 Kings 11:1-3

Noah curses his son for having covered his nakedness: Genesis 9:20-25

In Islaam, we honour our Prophets and do not attribute such terrible crimes to them (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all).

Well maybe that's called covering the sins of others.
As Christians, we are not to 'advertise' people's sins either, but the people in the bible stories were examples of what would happen if we sinned, and how we would suffer the consequences.

They are stories for us to listen and learn from the mistakes of others, so that we ourselves will not fall into the same errors or sins.
 
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ummuIsa

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Well maybe that's called covering the sins of others.
As Christians, we are not to 'advertise' people's sins either, but the people in the bible stories were examples of what would happen if we sinned, and how we would suffer the consequences.

They are stories for us to listen and learn from the mistakes of others, so that we ourselves will not fall into the same errors or sins.
No that is not the reason. We also believe in covering each others faults and we are not supposed to advertise our own sins.

We do not believe that the Pophets ever committed such great sins period. Although we believe that they were indeed only men, they were not of our status and calibre and they received help and strength from Allaah, of course. As you said they are an example, so how can you follow someone who does such things, let alone says that He is a Prophet. I mean how can a Prophet warn you that adultery is forbidden and punishable by the Creator but then turn around and commit adultery? And incest, thats even worse. No, just as we give Allaah the respect that He deserves we also give the Messengers & Prophets the respect that they deserve.
 
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Exegete12

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..... As you said they are an example, so how can you follow someone who does such things, let alone says that He is a Prophet. .....
Salaam
Please provide quote where I said that.

Maybe English is not your first language, but I wrote:
...but the people in the bible stories were examples of what would happen if we sinned, and how we would suffer the consequences.

You see there is a big difference here to what you implied I had written.

So no they are not our examples for conduct, as Jesus Christ is our only example. But they are examples of what will happen if we sin.

Please don't truncate your message ... "As you said they are an example" ... but continue on with my full quote for full understanding. "they are an example of what would happen if we sinned, and how we would suffer the consequences."

You are incorrectly quoting me by truncating my message to fit your own purpose. Sorry for exposing this on you, but like I said I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming English is your second language.:)
 
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peaceful soul

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ummuIsa

Lot commits incest: Genesis 19:30-38

David commits adultery, gets the woman pregnant, tries to cover it up by having her husband sleep with her & when that doesn't work he has the woman's husband killed: 2 Samuel 11: 2-15

Solomon slept with many, many women: 1 Kings 11:1-3

Noah curses his son for having covered his nakedness: Genesis 9:20-25

In Islaam, we honour our Prophets and do not attribute such terrible crimes to them (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all).
There is nothing terrible with seeing that even the so-called best of men (prophets) also fell short of God's glory since they were sinners just like you and me. The prophets were not sent for us to follow their example, but to follow their message which is implied to be from God. There is a difference in the two.

AlHannah correctly stated that our example is Jesus Christ. Although He is considered a prophet of God, He is more than that. He is God incarnated, which puts Him on a totally different plane than a human. He was perfect - sinless. That is why we can only follow Him and His directives since only perfection comes from God.

We could not treat Jesus like you do Mohammad since Mohammad was not sinless and follow his examples. Mohammad made mistakes. These mistakes are not just trivial. Some of them violate God's demands upon us for righteousness before Him. Christians see these as sins, which only one of them is needed to condemn us before God - which most Muslims don't believe in the first place.

God does not grade us on a curve and proclaim that if you committ less sins than others, you will get a higher status with Him. Therefore, prophets do not have some inside track to righteousness. Just one sin disqualifies us of right fellowhsip with Him unless we accept Christ's substitution/mediator role for our sins.

A prohet was chosen by God. That does not make him immune to anything that any other human does. The stories of the Bible show that God used them (sinners) in spite of their sins. He shows us His grace and mercy in the process. Just imagine if God did not have mercy and grace available, we would not have any chance at all to be his servants. We would all have been condemned upon our first sin. There would have been no option to get right with Him. The Bible shows that God gave us many chances for us to repent and gain right fellowship with Him. That is awesome!!

To paint prophets as sinless or lesser of disobedience to God's standards as the common man is to in effect, try to hide the frailty that all humans encounter. We all fall short and are equally shortfallen. God does not count the sins of a prophet and count the sins of others differently. They all are sins. Often our human reasoning will fail us in understand that the nature and consequence of spiritual things do not work the way of the physical world.

Oh! I forgot to mention that I too agree that Allah is not the proper name of God in relation to Hebrew. The closest transliteration to Allah in Hebrew is allah, which refers to oak. Elohim does not equal Allah since Elohim is not a proper name. It can mean gods as well as idols. El and Al are not equivalent. If you are going to try to use Elohim and Allah as equals, you would have to explain what happens to the rest of Elohim (ohim). One can not just forget that it is attached to the word as well. If this does not make sense, then I can further explain.
 
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A

ALRAJY

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SaLam ALL,

PeacefulSoul, I think you concentrate more while writing your Posts, because they seem to be Logic-less. Prophets are Men (As Jesus was) Chosen by GOD to Convey a Message. If GOD says not to commit adultry, those Prophest Should be the First guys to bear that commandment, and not Commit adultry. How come you believe Someone who says "Somke Kills, don't do It" and He is Smoking a Cigar in Front Of you.

Imagine this For example, Prophet Noah comes to you, and says "Peacfulsoul, I have a commandment From GOD, and that is you Shouldn't drink Alcohol", Later On, you see Prophey Noah, drinking Red wine, until Fainting. You said to yourself "How come He is the Prophet Of GOD, and doesn't Obey the Commandment Of GOD ? What the Heck, I will continue drinking until I will die, and in the day Of Judgement, If GOD asks me, [Why did you drink Red wine although I said It is Prohibited] I will reply to GOD [How come you want to Stop drinking, while Noah, your Chosen Prophet, whom you sent to us as an example, didn't, If you want Justice, you should Condemn Him First, not me, Coz, I Followed your example]"

Take in mind, that the actions Of those Prophets in your Bible, were done during their Prophecy, during their Lifetime as Prophets From GOD, not in Child/Adulthood, and no where It says that GOD Forgave them. How do you want me to believe in GOD who had no mercy For His Prophets.

I wonder If the Pope is immune to anything that any Other Human does :scratch:


Kind Regards
 
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Liberate

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Liberate said:
Even the concept of islam's god is acknowledged by the best arabic lexicon from
Edward Lane, a classic masterpiece as having pagan roots. You have already
admitted ilaha refers to "a pagan diety,
a new moon, the great
serpent, a god to
whoever takes it as such"

UmmIsa said:
I do not have Lane's lexicon (although I really want it, its just soo
expensive!) so I don't know if it translates 'ilaah' (ilaaha) as a pagan diety,
new moon or a god to whomever takes it as such. Yet I can't believe that it
does
and if it in fact does that is a very grave error.

UmmIsa said:
Ilaah means a god; Allaah mentions in the Qur`aan that there are other gods that
people make for themselves (i.e. people, wealth, celestrial bodies, etc). "We
wronged them not, but they wronged themselves. So their aaliha (gods), other
than Allaah, whom they invoked, profited them naught when there came the Command
of your Lord, nor did they add aught (to their lot) but destruction." [11:101]
That is why He Says that there in none worthy of worship except Him; New moon is
translated as hilaal; Someone who is worshipped and agrees to this is a
taaghoot. None of these words (ilaah, hilaal, taaghoot) even share the same root
word so I do not see how they can at all be connected.

Liberate said:
This is standard islamic apologetics to dismiss a claim without ever looking at
it.

UmmIsa said:
If you have read any of my other posts you know that I do not water down or
twist the teachings of Islaam.
This is great, and I look forward to discussing various aspects of islam since
you claim you do not water down it's teachings, however I see an immediate
problem with your statement, this is what islam categorically says:
Question:1- Why Does a Muslim has to Follow one particular
Imam?( Imam Hanaf, Imam malik, Imam Hambal, Imam shafaii), when
there is no rule as such, is not this the greatest biddah in muslims, which has
no base in islam, 2-also if one follows part of one imam and a part of another
imam what harm is there in that, as both say they r followers of Prophet(saws)
3-whom did the sahabh, the tabain, the tabe-tabain, follow as imam? pls answer
All the questions, sometimes you skip some of the questions.
Answer:
1. A muslim has to follow Shariah. If he is a mujtahid, ie. A
master in all the different fields of Islamic sciences then he will
follow Quran , Hadith, Ijmaa directly using his skills for deducing laws. If a
person does not possess these skills then he will have to follow one who
possesses these skills. On this there is Ijmaa (consensus) of the Ummah and is
backed up by Ayaat of the Quran and Ahadith.
2. If one picks and chooses from the mazhabs, then he will be
following his desires and no sooner does one follow his desires than he goes
astray. Only one who is well versed in Shariah, knows the implications of
picking and choosing. Each ruling is based on a broader general
principle and thus by picking and choosing one who be going against these
principles and would thus be contradicting himself. There is Ijmaa that a person
has to follow only one Mazhab.
3. Those Sahabah and tabieen who were not mujtahids would follow
those who were. This is proved in many narrations.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Ml. Hussein Kadodia
FATWA DEPT.
CHECKED & APPROVED: Ml. Imraan Vawda
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=9953
Since you claim you follow no madzhab, do you not see that you are contradicting
what islam itself says?
UmmIsa said:
The Truth is the truth, either it is accepted or it is
not.
Indeed; truer words were never spoken.
UmmIsa said:
If it is, all praise is for Allaah, and it is for the benefit of that person's
soul. If it is not, then Allaah guides whom He wills,
and he will have to answer for himself just as I will have to answer for
myself.

This phrase: " allah guiding whom he will" don't you
find it a little ambiguous, would you like to put your eternal destiny in the
hands of a god who may or may not guide you on what looks like a passing whim?
Seeing the tafsir as understood by the earliest and respected imams,
categorically state that allah "Allah guides whom He wills and
misguides whom He wills. "
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=6&tid=16262

UmmIsa said:
Yes, Allaah is an Ilaah, He is THE Ilaah, hence Allaah (al-Ilaah).

Liberate said:
I suggest you have this argument with Islam_mullia, allah being contracted from
al-ilah was never the argument I said Lane implied. You only
prove whichever way you look at it the root ilah damns the god of
islam. (I am well aware that the majority of modern muslims say
allah is contracted from al-ilah, this is not what I am saying Lane says, but I
am asking what the root of allah is)
UmmIsa said:
I do not argue. One of my most favorite quotes is, "As for me, I know my
religion. If you have lost yours then go and look for it."
UmmIsa said:
Now I still do not understand how you are saying that the word
ilaah (a God, which Allaah is) proves some kind of negative connotation about
Allaah.
This is where a lexicon comes in handy, as it traces the very root of a word and
it's offshoots.

UmmIsa said:
Please explain it to me as if you were writing a book called,
"the root ilah damns the god of islam for dummies."
Please read page 83 of Lane's lexicon in starting post, which states under
'allah' "originally ilaha or
ilaha"
The incriminating page 82 is highlighted again below:
lane82p2.gif


This is a summary of the important quotes:

إِلَه or إِلاه{ilah}[ the former of which is the more common mode of writing the word,] is of the measure fi’aalun (S, Msb, K, ) In the sense of the measure maf’uulun, (S, Msb, ) like kitaabun in the sense of maktoobun, and bisaaTun in the sense of mabsuuTun, (Msb,) meaning ma,aluuhun [An object of worship or adoration; i.e. a god, a deity]; (S, Msb, K,) anything that is taken as an object of worship or adoration, accord. to him who takes it as such: (K: ) with the article ال , properly, i.q. الله ; [see this word below;] but applied by the believers in a plurality of gods to what is worshipped by them to the exclusion of الله{alllaah}: (Msb: ) plural الِهَة {aalihat}: (Msb, TA: ) which signifies idols: (JK, S, TA: ) in the K, this meaning is erroneously assigned to الِهَة {aalihat}:(TA:) ...الإلاهة {al-ilahat} [is the fem. Of الإلاه {al-ilah}, and] signifies [the goddess: and particularly] the serpent: [(a meaning erroneously assigned in the CK to al-aalihat; as also other meanings here following:) because it was a special object of the worship of some ancient Arabs:] (K: ) or the great serpent: (Th: ) and the [new moon; or the moon when it is termed


UmmIsa" said:
(and ilaah is not a root, it is a word)
No need to be pedantic, this is not the thrust of my argument, I have stated
several times the root of 'ilah' and
'allah' are the same. The heart of my argument is why
Lane says allah is "originally ilaha or ilaaha" and on
the preceding page gives the definition of ilah as " an object of worship to
whom takes it as such...a pagan diety,... a new moon...
the great serpent, as it was an object of worship of the ancient
arabs" . To all intense and purposes ilaha is the
root/source/origin of allah, this is what Lane implied when under allah he says
"originally ilaha or ilaaha"
UmmIsa said:
Allaah is Allaah's personal name.
I fail to see how an objective individual can come to such a conclusion,
for the one damning reason arabic was still being developed
several years after the death of it's prophet, 600 years after
Christ, and over 5 millenias after judaism. To claim the entire biblical
history of the pentateuch, the torah, the new testament, and apocryphra
eliminated this "true name" of God, is a conspiracy
on a monumental scale, or the alternative is to admit the god of
islam is not the same as the God in the bible.

UmmIsa said:
He has many attributes and is known by many names so that the
believers may get to know and understand him but His name is Allaah. Both words,
ilaah & Allaah, comes from the root word alaha.
This is where you need to back up what you alledge with a lexicon.
My argument has nothing to do with al-ilaah/ilah (that is a seperate argument on
it's own merits). I am simply interested in the origins of the word allah. Lane's lexicon like many classic lexicons start with the roots first, and their offshoots.
Lane has traced allah to "originally ilaha or ilaaha" and
cites five sources who say this; for someone who has openly admitted to not
having read Lane's lexicon on the origins of the word
'allah'. Don't you find it a little strange to be
issuing verdicts on something you openly admit to not having read?

Liberate said:
Ofcourse westernized moderate mulsims would like to tell you islam even says if
you do good works you are going to paradise, regardless of your religious
persuasion.

UmmIsa said:
Yes, there are Muslims who say this and I don't know if its because this is
their understanding of Allaah's verses (which we are not to interpret using our
own understanding) or because they don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings. But
only those who 'believe' (meaning Islaam) AND do good deeds will be granted
Paradise.
Liberate said:
At least you are honest in that respect, since you state muslims are not to
interpret the quran with their own understanding, would you care to state which
madzhab you follow? (No relevance at all to the discussion, just out of
curiousity, it's a little like getting blood from a stone to get muslims here to
state the madzhab they follow, as much of what they say contradicts what you
have just said about interpreting the quran with their own understanding, as
they more than often do just that, without the authority to do so).
 
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Liberate

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UmmIsa said:
I do not follow any particular madhhaab. I follow the Qur`aan & the
authenticated Sunnah (authentic narrations only) and I understand it according
to the way the Messenger explained it to his Companions. In other words, I am a
Salafee.
This is the problem I find with many westernized muslims, the quick dismissal
of authority, and the onus to interprete the quran and sunnah as they personally see fit,
when islam has not given them the authority to do this. Who decides what is an
authentic hadith? You? If you are the one dismissing what is authentic or not,
how do you reconcile your earlier statement that you do not water down islam?
For example:
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) Moses was a shy person and used to cover
his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of
Israel hurt him by saying, 'He covers his body in this way only because of some
defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other
defect.' Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day
while Moses was in seclusion, he took off his clothes and put them on a stone
and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his
clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled; Moses
picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying, 'O stone! Give me my garment!' Till he reached a group of Bani Israel who saw him naked
then, and found him the best of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there and Moses took and put his garment on and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah,
the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four or five marks. THIS
IS WAS WHAT ALLAH REFERS TO IN HIS SAYING:-- "O you who believe!
Be you not like those Who annoyed Moses, But Allah proved his innocence of that
which they alleged, And he was honorable In Allah's Sight." (33.69)
Read the above sahih(authentic) hadith, far from contradicting the quran,
it
states this is the reason for sura 33:69, but what are you to do
with the above
hadith? Do you claim it contradicts the quran to save face, or do you reject it
because of the ridiculous story of a stone running away with someone's clothes
and having the sensory neurones to take a beating. If you reject it on whose
authority do you reject it? Have you studied under the tutelage of a mufti for
several years to issue rulings? I am curious to your
response?

UmmIsa said:
Why convert to Islaam? Because it is the only religion that will be accepted on
the Last Day. And as far as being judged upon good deeds alone, no one will make
it to Paradise solely based on their deeds. The Messenger said that no one
enters Paradise except by Allaah's Mercy (may Allaah grant His unlimited Mercy
to all of the believers in this life & the next, aameen). And why is that??
Because none of us are sinless and if you commit even one sin you have disobeyed
Allaah and He is liable and Just in doing so, to punish you
Liberate said:
It is interesting you understand the concept that God is holy, and good deeds,
mean nothing, christianity has a similar concept, but where we
differ is instead of Mohammed not knowing where he is going, the instigator of
our faith knows precisely where He is going, and even islam states
Jesus is coming back to judge.

UmmIsa said:
I never said that good deeds mean nothing, of course they do.
Recall also you stated the good deeds of non-muslims mean nothing in the
afterlife.
UmmIsa said:
What I said was that they are not the only reason that we will
be granted Jannah.
What other reasons are there in islam for granting jannah? Is it for
sacrifices for islam? Will suicide bombers also get in there? Or is this a
complicated subject as allah will be judging them on their intentions...?
UmmIsa said:
Why, because none of us have never committed a sin. And if you
have commiteed even one sin and you know you were disobeying the Creator (which
most of the time we do know) then you are liable to be punished for your
disobedience and Allaah will be Just in doing so.
I am impressed you understand this christian concept, a Holy and Just God
punishes sin, where islam and christianity differs is how sin is dealt with.
Nothing you will ever do can make you feel good enough for jannah,
this is why people are quick to cut off hands of first time thieves, decapitate
homosexuals, it is all qurbani (sacrifice), to get rid of the collective sense
of guilt that they are not good enough for their god, so the single mother, the
one who commits adultery is stoned and the collective guilt passes
until the next victim, what makes islam extremely dangerous is this collective guilt that forces the community to take actions into their hands to
kill members of their populace, not because those doing the punishment are innocent of any crime and have never sinned, but because the hapless individuals have been caught, and the collective guilt of the area is placed on them, you do not have a saviour figure, that is why martyrdoom is the only way of
guaranteeing entrance to jannah. You have sacrificed your existence and hope
allah is pleased.
UmmIsa said:
That is why we need Allaah's Forgiveness and Mercy.
Can you show me anywhere of an example in the quran where allah showed mercy,
and the nature of that mercy?
UmmIsa said:
. So there is not one of us who would make it to Paradise on our
deeds alone.

UmmIsa said:
This is why Allaah, again being Merciful,

Liberate said:
I have not seen any explicit evidence of allah's mercy except to excuse Mohammed for his various infidelities; i.e when caught in bed with Mariam Hafsa's slave
maid in sura 66, which Aisha and Hafsa came up against him for, and he needed the help of allah to sanction his infidelity by having allah say "why forbid
what has been made lawful for you" (i.e to continue sleeping with Mariam, after
promising Hafsa he wouldn't do it again, when she caught him in the act). Where
is the mercy for homosexuals? for pagans? for first time theives? who have their
limbs decapitated, where is the mercy for women imprisoned when unable to
provide four witnesses to have seen the act of penetration before convicting
anyone of raping them? But are instead imprisoned for indirectly admitting to
zina (intercourse outside of marriage). Where is the mercy for apostates who
are given three days to revert or face death?

UmmIsa said:
#1- The first three verses are in relation to an incident in which the Messenger
had spent an extended times with one of his wives (Zaynab bint Jahsh) and while
there he had drinken a drink made out of honey.
I am afraid there is a much more logical explanation, written in those same
hadiths.
UmmIsa said:
`Aa'ishah being `Aa'ishah became
jealous. She and Hafsah were close so she had Hafsah help her with a plot
against the Messenger, hoping this would keep him from staying too long with
Zaynab. She asked him if he had eaten a certain type of food because his breath
smelled bad. The Messenger was very vigilant about keeping his mouth clean and
she knew this would disturb him so he vowed not to drink the honey anymore. This
is why Allaah said that he has made something lawful forbidden just to please
his wives. And no one has the authority to make the lawful unlawful and vice
versa except Allaah. This is why the two wives (`Aa'ishah & Hafsah) were also
admonished in the subsequent verses.
All because of honey!?
This is what the tafsir of sura 66 says about this incident (a long read but worth it for
it's implications):

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=66&tid=54321 also at http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1305&Itemid=122 [] my
comments

Allah censures His Prophet for Prohibiting Himself
from what He has allowed for
Him In the Book of Vows

Al-Bukhari recorded that `Ubayd bin `Umayr said that he heard `A'ishah
claiming
that Allah's Messenger used to stay for a period in the house of Zaynab bint
Jahsh and drink honey in her house. (She said) "Hafsah
and I decided that when
the Prophet entered upon either of us, we would say, `I smell Maghafir on you.
Have you eaten Maghafir' When he entered upon one of us, she said that to
him.
He replied (to her),

(No, but I drank honey in the house of Zaynab bint Jahsh, and I
will never drink
it again.)'' [You have to ask yourself whose wife would take
offence at her husband
for drinking honey, unless of course it was the scent of another woman !!]
Then the following was revealed;

(O Prophet! Why do you fobid that which Allah has allowed to
you) up to,
(If you both turn in repentance to Allah, your hearts are indeed
so inclined;)
in reference to `A'ishah and Hafsah.

(And (remember) when the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of
his
wives,) which refers to this saying,

(But I have drunk honey.) Ibrahim bin Musa said that
Hisham said that it also
meant his saying,
(I will not drink it anymore, I have taken an oath to that.
Therefore, do not
inform anybody about it.) [ Absolutely incredible " do
not inform anyody that I
have drunk honey and I have taken an oath not to drink honey"]
Al-Bukhari also recorded this Hadith in the Book of Divorce; then he said,
"Al-Maghafir is a type of sap, and in Ar-Rimth (a type of citrus) its taste is
sweet...'' Al-Jawhari said, "The `Urfut is a tree of the shrub variety, which
secretes Maghfur.'' Muslim collected this Hadith from `A'ishah in the Book of
Divorce in his Sahih, and his wording is the same as Al-Bukhari in the Book of
Vows. In the Book of Divorce, Al-Bukhari recorded that `A'ishah said, "Allah's
Messenger liked sweets and honey. After performing the `Asr prayer, he used to
visit his wives, going close to them. So he went to
Hafsah, daughter of `Umar,
and stayed with her more than his usual stay. I (`A'ishah)
became jealous [ note
this very important] and asked about that. It was said to me,
`A woman of her
family [why wasn't the woman identified?] sent her a small
vessel of honey as a
gift, and she gave a drink to Allah's Messenger made from it.'
I said, `By Allah, we will contrive a plot against him
[all because he ate
honey?!!!].' I said to Sawdah bint Zam`ah, `When the Messenger visits you
and draws close to you, say to him, `Have you eaten Maghafir' And when he says
to you, `No', then ask him, `What is this odor' He will say to you, `Hafsah
[Considering the slave maid in Hafsa's house is Mariyah, who might well be
the alledged woman of Hafsah's family?]
has given me a drink of honey [ if honey is a code word for
Maryah/Mariah/Maria
it all makes perfect sense] .'
Then you should say to him, `The honeybees might have eaten from Urfut, and I
will also say the same to him. Safiyyah, you should also say this.' Sawdah later
said, `It was under compulsion that I had decided to state that which you told
me; soon, by Allah, he was standing at my door.' So when Allah's Messenger came
near her, she said, `O Messenger of Allah! Did you eat Maghafir' He said, `No.'
She again said, `Then what is this odor' He said,

(Hafsah gave me honey to drink.) She said, `The honeybees might have eaten from
`Urfut.')'' `A'ishah continued, "When he came to me I said the same to him. He
then visited Safiyyah and she also said similar to him. When he again visited
Hafsah, she said, `O Messenger of Allah, should I not give you that (drink)' He
said,
(I do not need it.) Sawdah said, `By Allah! We have prevented him
from drinking
honey.' I said to her, `Keep quiet!''' Muslim also
recorded this Hadith, but
this wording is from Al-Bukhari. In the narration of Muslim, `A'ishah
said, "The
Messenger of Allah used to hate to have a bad odor coming from him''
 
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Liberate

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This is why
they suggested to him that he ate Maghafir, because it causes a bad odor. When
he said,
(No, I had some honey.) They said that the bees ate from a tree that is called
Al-`Urfut, which has Maghafir gum, suggesting that this is the reason behind the
bad odor they claimed was coming from him. The latter narration,
collected
through `Urwah from `A'ishah, mentions that it was Hafsah who gave the Prophet
the honey [Mariah was staying at her house].
In another narration collected from
`Ubayd bin `Umayr, from `A'ishah, it was Zaynab bint Jahsh [
Mohammed's adopted son wife now Mohammed's ] who gave the
honey to the
Prophet , while `A'ishah and Hafsah were the
plotters. Allah knows best. Some
might say that they were two separate incidents. However, it is not likely that
the Ayat were revealed about both incidents [ Bear this in
mind ], if indeed
they were two separate incidents.

Allah knows best. A Hadith that Imam Ahmad collected in the Musnad mentions that
[ this becomes very interesting this is the Bukhari hadith from vol 3
number 648
that mentions Maria]`A'ishah and Hafsah were the plotters. Imam Ahmad
recorded
that Ibn `Abbas said, "I was eager to ask `Umar about the two
ladies among the
wives of the Prophet , about whom Allah said,

(If you two turn in repentance to Allah your hearts are indeed so inclined;)
Then I performed Hajj along with `Umar, and on our way back from Hajj he went
aside (to relieve himself). I also went aside along with him carrying a tumbler
of water. When he finished and returned, I poured water on his hands from the
tumbler and he performed ablution. I said, `O Commander of the faithful! Who
were the two ladies among the wives of the Prophet , to whom Allah said,
(If you two turn in repentance to Allah your hearts are indeed so inclined)'
`Umar said, `I am astonished at your question, O Ibn `Abbas.''' - Az-Zuhri (a
subnarrator) said that `Umar did not like the question [ask yourself why?], but
he still answered it, saying that they were `A'ishah and Hafsah.
"Then `Umar went on relating the story and said, `We, the people of Quraysh,
used to have authority over our women. But when we came to live with the Ansar,
we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women
started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women. At that time, I was residing
at the house of Umayyah bin Zayd, in Al-`Awali. Once I got angry with my wife,
and she talked back to me; I disliked her answering me back. She said, `Why do
you dislike me talking back to you By Allah, the wives of the Prophet talk back
to him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day, until
nightfall.' Then I went to Hafsah and asked her, `Do you talk back to Allah's
Messenger' She said, `Yes.' I asked, `Does any of you keep Allah's Messenger
angry all day long, until night' She replied, `Yes.'
I said, `Whoever among you does this is a ruined, losing person! Doesn't she
fear that Allah may get angry for the anger of His Messenger and, thus, she will
be ruined Don't ask Allah's Messenger too many things, and don't retort him in
any case. Demand from me whatever you like, and don't be tempted to imitate your
neighbor, for she is more beautiful than you, and more beloved to Allah's
Messenger than you.' He meant `A'ishah.

I, and an Ansari neighbor of mine used to visit the Prophet in turns. He used to
go one day, and I another day. When I went I would bring him
the news of what had happened that day regarding the revelation and when he
went, he used to do the same for me. In those days it was rumored that the
Ghassan (tribe) were preparing their horses to invade us. My companion went and
returned to us at night and knocked at my door. I came out to him. He said that
a grave thing happened. I asked him, `What is it Have Ghassan come' He replied
that it was worse and
more serious than that, adding that Allah's Messenger had
divorced all his
wives. I said, `Hafsah is a ruined loser! I expected that would
happen some
day.' So I dressed myself and I performed the Subh prayer. I went to Hafsah and
found her weeping. I asked her, `Has Allah's Messenger divorced all of you' She
replied, `I don't know. He is there alone in the upper room.' I went to the
upper room and asked a black slave of the Prophet to ask for his permission to
see me, and the boy went in and then
came out saying, `I mentioned you to him and he remained silent.' I then went
out and came to the Minbar and found a group of people around it and some of
them were weeping. I sat with them for some time, but could not endure the
situation. So, I requested to the boy, `Will you get the permission for `Umar'
He went in and then came out saying, `I mentioned you to him, but he did not
reply.' So, I went to Minbar and sat
with the people who were sitting by the Minbar, but I could not bear the
situation, so I went to the boy again and said, `Will you get the permission for
`Umar' He went in and brought the same reply as before. When I was leaving,
behold, he called me saying, `Allah's Messenger has granted you permission.' So,
I entered the Prophet's room, greeted him with the Salam and saw him lying on a
mat without bedding on it, and the mat had left its mark on the body of the
Prophet.

I said, `Have you divorced your wives, O Allah's Messenger' He raised his eyes
to me and replied no. I said, `Allahu Akbar. O Allah's Messenger! We, the people
of Quraysh used to have the upper hand over our women.
But when we came to Al-Madinah, we found a people whose women had the upper hand
over them. Our women started learning this behavior from them. Once, I got angry
with my wife, and she talked back to me. I disliked that behavior from her and
she said, `Why do you dislike that I talk back to you By Allah, the Prophet's
wives talk back to him and one of them would ignore him the whole day, until the
night.' I said to her,
`Whoever does this among them is the ruined loser! Does she feel safe from Allah
getting angry with her on account of His Messenger's anger In that case, she
would be ruined.' On that the Prophet smiled. I then said,
`O Allah's Messenger! I went to Hafsah and said to her, `Do not be tempted to
imitate your companion (`A'ishah) for she is more beautiful than you and more
beloved to the Prophet.' The Prophet smiled again. When I saw him smiling, I
said, `Does the Messenger feel calm' He said,
`Yes.' So, I sat down and cast a glance at the room, and by Allah, I couldn't
see anything of importance, except three hides. I said, `Invoke Allah, O Allah's
Messenger, to make your followers prosperous, for the Persians and the
Byzantines have been made prosperous and given worldly luxuries, even though
they do not worship Allah.' The Prophet sat upright and said,

(O Ibn Al-Khattab! Do you have any doubt These people have been given rewards of
their good deeds in this world only.) I asked the Prophet , `Please beg Allah's
forgiveness for me, O Allah's Messenger.' The Prophet swore that
he would not go
to his wives for one month, because of his severe anger towards them
[ RIGHT
HERE is where your tafsir further insults the intelligence of it's readers and
deviates from the hadith, at this stage in the hadith this is what the hadith
says:"Bukhari vol 3 648 "...The Prophet
did not go to his wives because of
the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go
to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him
(for his oath that he would not approach Maria..."
if they had bothered to
include this part of the hadith it would have opened a can of worms the reader
would have known they were being taken for a ride, the prophet was angry because
Hafsa had told Aisha he slept with Hafsa's maid Maria/Mariyah/Mariah
]

His wives had confronted him about it he had threatened them with
divorce, his
followers glossed over it and fabricated elaborate hadiths about honey and
citrus fruits to cover the obvious imperfection in the prophet's
character.

Imagine for a second a husband tells his wife her father wants to see her and
while
she is away he sleeps with her maid, his wife comes back quickly when she finds
out her father doesn't want to see her, and finds her husband in bed with her
maid, she
naturally goes hysterical the husband begs her to be quiet and
not to tell anybody and
promises her it won't happen again (this is the oath Mohammed
was talking
about), she tells his other wife who in turn tells all the rest and they
make a
scene, his followers in their desperation to venerate him as
whiter than white
hush hush the incident and even go as far as to fabricate hadiths to exonerate
their prophet. To add insult to injury to Mohammed's wives he even
had his god chide him for abstaining from sleeping with Maria (
"until Allah
the Exalted and Most Honored censured him".), and to carry on the
shenanigans with her, threatening his wives with divorce for
making him deny himself the right to fornicate.] Al-Bukhari, [
The tafsir didn't
even give you the Bukhari hadiths so you don't check it out for
yourself ]

You'd be hard pressed to find a more logical story regarding the event, than
this absurd tale of
honey and bad breath! (Recall that the hadiths of Bukhari precede those of Muslim, hence the original Bukhari hadith gives a more rational and truer picture not something that came later.)
UmmIsa said:
3- How could the Messenger commit infidelity when Maryam was lawful to
him.
Do you as a woman not feel a little disturbed that non-muslims can be made right
hand possessions by a mujaheddin attacking their town, killing their husbands,
for the sole reason that they are non muslims?
Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him
whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept
(Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was
necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may
peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were
unaware and
their cattle were having a drink at the water[READ
CAREFULLY, IT WAS NO LONGER
NECESSARY TO GIVE A CALL TO ISLAM BEFORE ATTACKING, JUST ATTACK THE UNBELIEVERS
AND KILL THOSE WHO FIGHT BACK, CLAIM THIS IS 'SELF DEFENSE' 14 CENTURIES
LATER]. He
killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured
Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related
to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.”
Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4292
UmmIsa said:
She was sent to him as a gift and he kept her as a right hand
possession. They even had a son together, Ibraheem, who died in infancy.
Do you know how Maryam became a gift?
Are you aware that Mohammed threatened the Egyptian copts to accept islam or
else he would wage jihad on them, and the Vice regent, Al Mauqauqis sent two maids one of them Mariah
as a gift to appease him, Mohammed duly accepted the two maids; and did not wage
jihad on the Egyptian copts, distributing the other maid to a fellow muslim.
What kind of a man would set aside his morals for sex
(let's be honest here, this is what is stated happened)
 
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izarya

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There was a thread about this before, but it seems to have disappeared.

The Hebrew word "Eloheim" is actually a modern variation of the much older AhLa-HaYaM which is older even than the Aramaic spoken today.

Language changes constantly, and the remnants of many ancient languages that we have today do not necessarily always reflect what they are intended to.

Even Aramaic as it is currently known is not the same as it was 2000 years ago, and the Aramaic spoken by Christ was not the same as the dialect spoken by Abraham and inhabitants of ancient Phoenicia.

Allah or AhLa is not and was not originally a proper name, it was a title in much the same sense that the word "God" is a title meaning power.

There is a plural form of AhLa, it is the AhLa-HaYaM I mentioned earlier, it simply means "powers" or angelic forces which were often times worshipped as gods.
 
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peaceful soul

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originally posted by ALRAJY

SaLam ALL,

PeacefulSoul, I think you concentrate more while writing your Posts, because they seem to be Logic-less.


Thanks a million, but I don't think so. Part of applying logic is to knowing the scripture you are quoting against. You are ignorantly saying that I have no logic when you do not understand the concepts of which I speak in relation to the Bible. Would that be fair to say? My logic is based upon Biblical references - not Islamic ones, although I do compare the two at times.


Prophets are Men (As Jesus was) Chosen by GOD to Convey a Message. If GOD says not to commit adultry, those Prophest Should be the First guys to bear that commandment, and not Commit adultry. How come you believe Someone who says "Somke Kills, don't do It" and He is Smoking a Cigar in Front Of you.
You assume that there are not other sins than the one's they are advocating not to do. There are limitless number of sins that we do that are not so obvious or are in other areas of our lives that people do not readily notice while observing us.

You think that all prophets obeyed God perfectly. The Bible points out that this is not true. There are many times where God calls a prophet and that prophet has a very difficult time either believing or understanding that God is calling him to do a certain task. That prophet hesitates to heed God's command. God then gives hims numerous signs and he still is so unsure. Now, would you say that this prophet is without sin since he did not obey God perfectly? For, example: Moses disobeyed God when He smote the rock 3 times instead of 2 as God commanded Him. Guess what? He sinned. Did that affect the message that God delivered to him? Not really since the message had nothing to do with striking a rock as a command from God for them to do. The striking the rock became a personal issue instead of an impersonal one. The Israelite's were not the ones given the command to strike the rock. Do you see my point?

At first, Jonah did not trust God and fled from His presence because he did not want to go to Nineveh to warn those people of God judgment soon to come. That was sin. Yet God gave Him a second chance to do what was right.


Imagine this For example, Prophet Noah comes to you, and says "Peacfulsoul, I have a commandment From GOD, and that is you Shouldn't drink Alcohol", Later On, you see Prophey Noah, drinking Red wine, until Fainting. You said to yourself "How come He is the Prophet Of GOD, and doesn't Obey the Commandment Of GOD ? What the Heck, I will continue drinking until I will die, and in the day Of Judgement, If GOD asks me, [Why did you drink Red wine although I said It is Prohibited] I will reply to GOD [How come you want to Stop drinking, while Noah, your Chosen Prophet, whom you sent to us as an example, didn't, If you want Justice, you should Condemn Him First, not me, Coz, I Followed your example]"
Firstly, if God gave such a command, He would not leave me without some kind of sign to me personally disclosing to me that this was what He required of me. I know that this is not the crux of the issue though. More importantly, I would not simply refuse to obey just because said prophet did not disobey after he gave me the command. I would seek verification from God Himself if I were confused by the contradictory actions to the command.

I understand your point, but God would not hold me accountable in the same way that He would if the said prophet did not contradict the commandment that He sent and thus, confusing me. God would know that the prophet did not set the example correctly on this particular matter.

This goes to the deeper issue: The prophet can deliver a command and execute it perfectly himself and still sin in other areas of his life that have nothing to do with the commandment he brought. As a result, that prophet would not be violating the message he brought but would still be guilty of sins.


Take in mind, that the actions Of those Prophets in your Bible, were done during their Prophecy, during their Lifetime as Prophets From GOD, not in Child/Adulthood,
As I have already stated, they don't have to break the very commandments they brought forth in order to sin. Spiritual pride, gluttony, and doubting God's call are all sins that do not have to be seen direct by others who could see that his example is not perfect.

and no where It says that GOD Forgave them. How do you want me to believe in GOD

I am not going to deal with that one since I can't recollect percisely many of their actions. I do know that from the few that I can recollect at the moment that after their sins, God brought them under conviction and they confessed their sins and made themselves right with God on that issue. I doubt very seriously that I could take your word for the rest of them though since repentence was always an integral part of a prophet's walk with God. who had no mercy For His Prophets.
I wonder If the Pope is immune to anything that any Other Human does :scratch:
The Pope is no exception. We are all sinners. Prophets are not special. They are chosen by God. That is what makes them prophets. God does not choose them because they are perfect. He choses them because He desires to use them. That is the only qualifier when all is said and done. The Bible shows that God used those that most people thought were either worthless or lesser than those He was sending His instruction to. He looked inwardly and performed His work on them to train them to do His work. He could do that to any ordinary person like you and me if he desired.


Let me ask you a few questions. Do you believe that your spiritual leaders are called by Allah? If so, do you think that they are sinless? Do you think that every move they make is perfection and always in line with the Qu'ran? Do they ever have to be corrected in certains areas of their lives per Qu'ran?

Anyways. Let's get back to topic. I do not want to go any further with this at this point. If you have any opposing views, it may be better if we discussed these elsewhere. You can PM me if you feel we need to go further with this.
 
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