Is all that is required for salvation is believing in Christ and Him crucified?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Whoever seeks the TRUTH, AND KEEPS SEEKING THE TRUTH, to be subject to JESUS (to learn from HIM and to serve HIM in Spirit and in TRUTH)

WILL FIND THE TRUTH, and the TRUTH will set them FREE (from sin and from the power of the devil and from all perversion)

Thus , when perversion is repented of as Scripture Says, your posts will show this, instead of promoting perversion as your posts for years have done.

WE pray for that freedom for you, and look forward to this in your posts - freedom from perversion that deceived you.

I do seek truth in scripture instead of your rambling posts.
Which include only your opinions.

 

[ladodgers6]

In Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), the talk of holiness and conforming to Christ is an illusion because they also say you can sin on occasion and yet you are still saved (Hence, your defense of your interpretation that Paul struggled with sin as a Christian in Romans 7). This is what the two fold message of Eternal Security is all about.

However, we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
(Note: The WMA, and MP3 files in this source link may not work; But the Real Video Audio files do work last I checked; So please select the Real Video Audio files).

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
George Sodini:

More Suicide Victims and OSAS:
SUICIDE Commit Suicide Symptoms Suicidal Victims

So you are assuming I believe in OSAS?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you are assuming I believe in OSAS?

HEAVN FRBID @!

 

[ladodgers6]

In Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), the talk of holiness and conforming to Christ is an illusion because they also say you can sin on occasion and yet you are still saved (Hence, your defense of your interpretation that Paul struggled with sin as a Christian in Romans 7). This is what the two fold message of Eternal Security is all about.

However, we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
(Note: The WMA, and MP3 files in this source link may not work; But the Real Video Audio files do work last I checked; So please select the Real Video Audio files).

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
George Sodini:

More Suicide Victims and OSAS:
SUICIDE Commit Suicide Symptoms Suicidal Victims

BTW, you didn't address anything I wrote about on Romans. I thought we had a deal?

 

[ladodgers6]

HEAVN FRBID @!

I believe in God and His Promise that He WILL save His people!

 

[ladodgers6]

There's two points I would like you to clear up from your position.

1)The curse of the Law according to what you believe, is not the Mosaic Law, but the Ceremonial/Ritualistic Laws?

2)You believe that Romans 4 is speaking of works according to the Ceremonial Law of Circumcision? And it's this that sinners cannot do to be saved? This is correct?

I wanted to get clarification before I respond. Because I do not want to represent your position.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ladodgers6]

In Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), the talk of holiness and conforming to Christ is an illusion because they also say you can sin on occasion and yet you are still saved (Hence, your defense of your interpretation that Paul struggled with sin as a Christian in Romans 7). This is what the two fold message of Eternal Security is all about.

However, we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
(Note: The WMA, and MP3 files in this source link may not work; But the Real Video Audio files do work last I checked; So please select the Real Video Audio files).

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
George Sodini:

More Suicide Victims and OSAS:
SUICIDE Commit Suicide Symptoms Suicidal Victims

I believe in Classical Covenant Theology. The three Covenant: Covenant of Redemption, Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace!

Basically this is God's Plan of Redemption!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I thought we had a deal?

Where did I ever make a deal?

BTW, you didn't address anything I wrote about on Romans.

Neither did you. You did not initially address my points with Scripture. You just proceeded to put forth what you believe instead of actually explaining away each point I made.

 

[ladodgers6]

Noah preached for about 100 years also, didn't he?

And Enoch also? At the same time ? (He died the same year as the beginning of the rain, I think.)

They did the tasks assigned to them by Yahweh. Each one his own tasks.

Yahweh prepared "good works" , - "TASKS" - to be accomplished,
BEFORE creating the world
,
for everyone to do during their days on earth.

Without hearing His Word, without hearing the Shepherds Voice, how can anyone know the tasks they are to do ?
"Blessed are they who hear the Word of God AND DO IT"
"Be not just hearers of God's Word, but DOERS also"

Hey do me a favor ask him. Then why wasn't the Pharisee justified like the tax collector in Luke 18?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you are assuming I believe in OSAS?

Calvinists believe in Perseverance of the Saints. This is essentially OSAS, unless you recently converted to being a Free Will Baptist (or you are a 3-4 pointer Calvinist or someting), I highly doubt you don't believe in OSAS. Your interpretation on Romans 7 is the standard cookie cutter OSAS interpretation. In either case, it doesn't matter. The heart of the problem with the OSAS belief is that it justifies sin with the thinking one is saved. Free Will Baptists believe they can sin and still be saved, but they believe that a saint can fall away from the faith by rejecting Jesus or by no longer believing. They do not believe sin separates them from God (just like you). But stop and think for a moment. Would not God have to agree with sin in order to make this kind of plan of salvation work? Is God not holy? What separates the actions of the people of God from the actions of demons in your kind of belief? Even the demons believe and tremble. To make matters worse, you admit that at another point in time, God actually did regard works as a part of salvation (As if to say that God changes in His standard of goodness in the way He deals with all men). In other words, if what you say is true, then God would be a respecter of persons (Which is contrary to Acts of the Apostles 10:34 and Romans 2:11).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's two points I would like you to clear up from your position.

1)The curse of the Law according to what you believe, is not the Mosaic Law, but the Ceremonial/Ritualistic Laws?

Think of like a house contract. If you were to buy a house, they would write up a contract. If you read the contract and decided you want to make some changes (with other things remaining the same), and they agreed to your changes, you would go by the new contract to buy the house. Some rules in the contract would remain the same, and other rules would be different. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This does not mean all forms of law are abolished in relation to our right standing with God. We are under a New Covenant (new contract) with new commands. Even the 9 out of the 10 commandments (excluding the Sabbath) are not exactly the same as they are in the New Covenant. Jesus raised the bar on adultery and murder at the Sermon on the Mount. He also did not condemn a woman caught in the act of adultery. Yet, in the Law of Moses, she was supposed to be stoned. So.... different contract. For if you do not believe you are under no law salvation wise.... I highly doubt that you believe you are not under the command to believe in Jesus (See 1 John 3:23). So the curse of the Law is the Old Contract and not the New Contract. Also, the Pharisees distorted the Old Contract and they did not even obey it. They turned salvation primarily into a works based system alone without God's grace. This is why Jesus gave us the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. The Pharisee was not crying out to God over his own sin (seeking forgiveness).

2)You believe that Romans 4 is speaking of works according to the Ceremonial Law of Circumcision? And it's this that sinners cannot do to be saved? This is correct?

While the whole of the Old Law no longer applies anymore, it is more like a distortion of the Old Law that he is fighting against. In the OT, the real way of salvation (under the OT when it was in effect), one had to first believe in God for salvation (just as Romans 4 says), and then they had to be circumcised later (works of faith). Circumcision was for continued salvation (See Genesis 17:14). The Pharisee's who were trying to deceive Christians did not even believe this. They by-passed faith in God for salvation and taught you needed to first be circumcised to be saved. Paul is attacking the false pharisee religion of Circumcision Salvation. Please read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2.

 

[ladodgers6]

Calvinists believe in Perseverance of the Saints. This is essentially OSAS, unless you recently converted to being a Free Will Baptist (or you are a 3-4 pointer Calvinist or someting), I highly doubt you don't believe in OSAS. Your interpretation on Romans 7 is the standard cookie cutter OSAS interpretation. In either case, it doesn't matter. The heart of the problem with the OSAS belief is that it justifies sin with the thinking one is saved. Free Will Baptists believe they can sin and still be saved, but they believe that a saint can fall away from the faith by rejecting Jesus or by no longer believing. They do not believe sin separates them from God (just like you). But stop and think for a moment. Would not God have to agree with sin in order to make this kind of plan of salvation work? Is God not holy? What separates the actions of the people of God from the actions of demons in your kind of belief? Even the demons believe and tremble. To make matters worse, you admit that at another point in time, God actually did regard works as a part of salvation (As if to say that God changes in His standard of goodness in the way He deals with all men). In other words, if what you say is true, then God would be a respecter of persons (Which is contrary to Acts of the Apostles 10:34 and Romans 2:11).

I am not a Hyper-Calvinist. I am a Classical Calvinist.

 

[ladodgers6]

No. You do not agree with my point. I believe God's grace (by faith) is how we are initially and ultimately saved, and that works of faith is the next step in the salvation process. This means you are against works of faith as a part of salvation. The alternative to good works of faith is sin. There is no other option. For do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

But you also believe that works of the believer is the cause of their Salvation, correct?

 

[mark kennedy]

I am not a Hyper-Calvinist. I am a Classical Calvinist.

That's a Hyper-Calvinist these days, just like we have to insist that we believe in double imputation. It's just old school Calvinism but that just kind of goes with the territory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not a Hyper-Calvinist. I am a Classical Calvinist.

I am aware a bit of the diffferent versions.
Here is one list:

Types of Calvinism – A Comprehensive List

It still doesn't change anything. I believe all forms of Calvinism justify sin (Which is contrary to the Bible). How so? Again, on the one hand, you erroneously believe Paul struggled with sin in Romans 7:14-24 (as a normal condition of the believer), and on the other hand you believe he was saved. Yet, the Bible teaches you can overcome grievous sin in this life (1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 1 Corinthians 10:13, etc.). Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? Yes or no? Do you believe a Christian can abide in unrepentant sin (like lusting at a woman or lying) and they can still be saved while doing so? Yes or no?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you also believe that works of the believer is the cause of their Salvation, correct?

I understand that Calvinists believe "Free Will" to choose Christ is regarded as a work. But they fail to understand that God draws a person at His specific time and choosing so as to illuminate them to understand the gospel messsage so as to either accept it or reject it of their own free will (i.e. The Doctrine of Prevenient Grace).

Christians are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith. For if our salvation was based soley on works, then we could not have forgiveness or grace to be saved and or to walk uprightly.

Works are a part of one's faith. They are the next step after we are saved by God's grace through faith. They are "works of faith" and not "works of the Law" (i.e. works of the Law of Moses). Some Calvinists falsely claim that they live a new and regenerated life, but yet they also believe they can abide in unrepentant grievous sin on some level and still be saved. Hence, why you and many others defend a wrong interpretation on Romans 7. You obviously think Paul was saved even while he was still a slave to his sin. But unbelievers are a slave to their sin, too. Satanists are a slave to their sin, too. Demons are slave to their sin, too. So what makes this kind of belief any different than say that of the kingdom of darkness? I would say there is no difference. Both justify sin and evil and think that is okay. But God condemns sin. God is holy and righteous and He cannot agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved because God cannot agree with sin. God is holy, righteous, and good.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you also believe that works of the believer is the cause of their Salvation, correct?

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).


Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


A Short Break-down of Faith and Works in Regards to Salvation:


Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are basically saying we are not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism." James 2:24 is saying we are not saved by "Belief Alone Salvationism" (or Faith Alone as the Bible says).

Both Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 can be read as talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation"; And not Sanctification (as its primary focus). James 2 can be read as talking about Sanctification as its primary focus; And not "Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation.

I believe a person re-reading these chapters honestly in prayer with God will understand this fact.

As for Romans 3, Romans 4, and Galatians 2, Galatians 3:

Well, I believe these are talking about how we are not to go back to the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole. Granted, we are to keep the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet) because these are basics in loving or doing good and they are laws that have been repeated in the New Covenant. For this is why Paul condemned "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Galatians 5:2, cf. Romans 3:1). In fact, in the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, we discover that they addressed the problem of trying to be justified in being circumcised to be saved and or going back to the Law of Moses for salvation (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24; Also see Galatians 2:3).

 

[ladodgers6]

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).


Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


A Short Break-down of Faith and Works in Regards to Salvation:


Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are basically saying we are not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism." James 2:24 is saying we are not saved by "Belief Alone Salvationism" (or Faith Alone as the Bible says).

Both Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 can be read as talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation"; And not Sanctification (as its primary focus). James 2 can be read as talking about Sanctification as its primary focus; And not "Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation.

I believe a person re-reading these chapters honestly in prayer with God will understand this fact.

As for Romans 3, Romans 4, and Galatians 2, Galatians 3:

Well, I believe these are talking about how we are not to go back to the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole. Granted, we are to keep the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet) because these are basics in loving or doing good and they are laws that have been repeated in the New Covenant. For this is why Paul condemned "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Galatians 5:2, cf. Romans 3:1). In fact, in the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, we discover that they addressed the problem of trying to be justified in being circumcised to be saved and or going back to the Law of Moses for salvation (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24; Also see Galatians 2:3).

So do saved believers have to receive a 'Final Justification or Future Justification'? Is election based upon foreseen obedience? Is the works of the believer measured in terms of obedience to the law of the Covenant? And again I ask, is the works of the believer the cause of their Salvation?

 

[ladodgers6]

So please address these passages, because we both agree that Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

Romans 4:2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Galatians 2: 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

There are a lot more that I can provide, but to keep it short. I will would like you to explain these according to your position. As I will provide my position to your long list in your previous post. I need a little time to get to all of them, but you have my word that I will address each one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So do saved believers have to receive a 'Final Justification or Future Justification'?

First, you did not address the actual verses in my post that do list how we have to do works as a part of the salvation process (After we are saved by God's grace). You are attempting to ask questions so to avoid addressing those verses in what they plainly say.

Second, The terms you use here do not exist. So it is a loaded question that is based upon something false. Sort of like if I asked: "Do you like purple cats that can breath fire or do you like the green cats that can fly?" Such a question is loaded and based upon false presuppositions.

Salvation is in three tenses according to the Bible:

#1. Justification by Faith (Seeking forgiveness of one's sins with the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting Him as your Savior and believing that His death and resurrection was done on your behalf). This is how we are "Initially Saved" or how we are "Ultimately Saved." For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall be saved (John 3:16). For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved (Romans 10:13).

#2. Sanctification & Continued Justification ("Sanctification" is living holy and or obeying the commands given to us under the New Testament from Jesus and His followers. This is only possible to obey these commands by accepting Jesus as One's Savior and if they truly have God working in them to obey His Word) ("Continued Justification" is a continued belief in Jesus as your Savior and with the possible confession of sins so as to remain forgiven - See 1 John 1:9). Sanctification is the next step or stage in the "Salvation Process." 2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes it clear that we need both a belief in the truth and Sanctification as a part of salvation (Read the verse for yourself by hovering your cursor over the verse).

#3. Glorification ("Glorification" is God taking us home to be with Him, which is based on our cooperating with the process of Justification, and the process of Sanctification). Essentially "Glorification" is the Rapture or the "Blessed Hope" (Titus 2:13).​

Is election based upon foreseen obedience?

"Election" is not in the Calvinistic sense. God does not choose some to be saved and others not to be saved against their free will. There are no stories in the Bible that are told from a Calvinistic spin. Only Romans 9 (taken out of context) is the basis for the Calvinist's primary theology. Elect is merely a word used in the Bible to refer to God's foreknowledge of our future free will choices based upon God's timing to illumine us to the gospel message by faith and in our continued faithfulness to Him.

1 Peter 1:1-2 says God elects based on His future foreknowledge:

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,..."
(1 Peter 1:1-2).​

Elect.... according to foreknowledge and not according to some kind of Calvinistic decree. God elects or chooses those based on His foreknowledge of God the Father.

We can see that God "elects" based on people's free will choices even in the End Times. Some will worship the beast in the future. The Bible says that these kinds of people did not even have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). They were not chosen for salvation because of what they were going to do. For what they were going to do was soooo bad that salvation was never even a possibility for them.

Is the works of the believer measured in terms of obedience to the law of the Covenant?

While OT saints were also saved by Faith + Works of Faith, the Old Law is no more. The NT saints are also saved by Faith + Works of Faith, too. For today, believers under the New Covenant are to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior to be initially and ultimately saved by faith by God's grace (Jesus Christ); THEN we are to obey the commands given to us by JESUS and His FOLLOWERS (in the New Testament) and not the 613 laws within the Law of Moses that were given to ISRAEL (in the Old Testament) (Note: There are some more moral laws that have carried over or they have been repeated in the New Covenant; But Christians are not under the Old Law, but they are under New Covenant Law after they are saved by God's grace).

But to answer your question.... "Yes."
Believing in God's grace is even a commandment (1 John 3:23).
Obedience to God's commands within the New Covenant is a part of the work we do as Christians and it shows or proves Christ lives in us (1 John 2:3-4). Obedience to the commandments of Jesus shows that we love Him (John 14:25). Can somebody that does not love Jesus be saved? Paul does not seem to think so (See 1 Corinthians 16:22).

And again I ask, is the works of the believer the cause of their Salvation?

Again, you ask a loaded question and make an assumption based on faulty presuppositions. So the question does not apply. Salvation is Synergistic. Christ died for our sins and he risen three days later conquering the penalty of our sin; However, we need to apply this salvation to our lives with the correct form of faith as the Bible describes it. If we are not applying a true faith to our lives, then God's grace (accomplished at the cross, the tomb, and His ascension to the Father) will not be applied to us.