Is all that is required for salvation is believing in Christ and Him crucified?

[Oldmantook]

None though who have the new nature will even be willingly to change address!

That was not Paul's perspective. I prefer to believe Paul. In Rom 8:12-13 Paul wrote: "So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:13 in the Greek is what is known as a 1st class conditional sentence. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. In other words assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is true (you will spiritually die). Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let's assume brother that it is true for the sake argument you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis is “(then) you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death. Change of address is indeed possible as we must be careful not to depart from the faith.

 

[ladodgers6]

Part I

Paul's words are the easiest to twist in Scripture so as to turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

Agreed, people do tend to twist Scripture to fit their presuppositions. I appreciate that you are addressing my inquiries, for that I say thanks.

So what is Paul saying in Romans 7:14-24? Is Paul talking about his struggle with sin as a Christian? No.

I beg to differ, and I will provide Scripture that Paul was struggling with sin as a Christian.

7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Now if you read these passages correctly, Paul is speaking of Law and how the Law bought knowledge of sin, when He once believed He had no sin! Paul says, "I was once alive apart from the Law". Why did Paul say this? He answers it in the following passages. He thought the commandment (Mosaic/Moral Law) promised LIFE! And Paul is correct by saying this. The Covenant of Works given to the first Adam to fulfill through Obedience would have merited Eternal Life and enter eschatological Sabbath rest with the Father; Adam would have been granted access to the tree of LIFE! So in essence if anyone fulfills the Law with Perfect Flawless Obedience, they will merit Eternal life. And this was given to the first Adam to do.

But Paul now understanding that no sinful flesh can find LIFE in the Law! The Law bought knowledge of sin; and with that proved to be DEATH to Paul! Does Paul find fault with the Law? Because Paul says the Law deceived him. How did the Law deceived Paul? The Law did not deceive Paul; Paul deceived himself by thinking he was Perfectly Righteous and able to fulfill the requirements of the Law and receive the promised life of doing so.

Paul acknowledges that the is Holy, righteous and good. So did that which is good kill Paul? Is it the Law's fault that Paul sinned? Let's read the following passages to get the answer.

13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions.For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Paul in vvs. 13-16, goes on explaining his struggle with sin. The key here to grasp, is that, Paul is struggling with sin; as believers do. Here is the war raging between the flesh and the spirit that Paul speaks of in Galatians. And this is the fight the believer goes through the rest of his/her life. Notice how Paul says, the things he does not want to do, he does, and the things his wants to do, he does not! Then says, I have the DESIRE to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. But I find something interesting here. Paul says, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me". Why does Paul say this? Because as believers we are still in these bodies of death. We have not received our new bodies. This is why we have a raging war between the flesh and the Spirit. Until we receive our glorified bodies.
​

I will conclude in Part II​

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[ladodgers6]

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[ladodgers6]

Part II
​

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

So, here you can see the struggle of Paul with sin as a Christian. People tend to say that Paul is not a Christian believer here.One thing I want to mention. Paul was the greatest Pharisees at a very young age. Paul executed and persecuted Christian believers who did not try to find LIFE through the Law. By through Faith Alone in Christ Alone! Paul asserted that everyone had to abide by the Law or else. Not until Saul was saved Christ on the road to Damascus. That Christ give him the knowledge of the Gospel, and why the Gospel was the only way anyone could be saved. And Paul understood then that the Law brings only death to those who break the Law, because of sin.


And I will end with this: For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man (v.22).

If there is any question about whether Paul is talking about his pre-conversion or his on-going struggle after his regeneration , this one text will put that to rest forever, because no un-regenerated person delights in the Law of God in the inward person. Psalm 1 makes sharp distinction between the godly man and the ungodly man:​

Psalms 1​

1Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful.


2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.


3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.


4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind drives away.


5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.


6For the LORD knows the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

So there you have it. Paul delights in the Law of God, according the inner man (regeneration).​

Hope this helps???

 

[YeshuaFan]

That was not Paul's perspective. I prefer to believe Paul. In Rom 8:12-13 Paul wrote: "So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:13 in the Greek is what is known as a 1st class conditional sentence. The word IF in this verse is the conditional particle (ei), which introduces a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The conditional particle ei, “if” is employed with the indicative mood of the verb zao, “you are living.” Together, they explicitly convey a protasis of a first class condition that indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. In other words assuming the protasis is true (living according to the flesh), then the apodosis is true (you will spiritually die). Paul's warning to the brethren thus conveys - If and let's assume brother that it is true for the sake argument you are living in submission to the flesh, i.e. the sin nature.” The apodasis is “(then) you brother will die, i.e. spiritual death. Change of address is indeed possible as we must be careful not to depart from the faith.

Paul is assuming here though that those who have been saved will now indeed be living by the Spirit, and not living according to the flesh. Similar thing occurs in Hebrews 6, where the author gives to us mere professing Christians, and then contrasts that with the real and genuine ones that will have been producing evidence of change lives now in Christ!

 

[ladodgers6]

Paul is assuming here though that those who have been saved will now indeed be living by the Spirit, and not living according to the flesh. Similar thing occurs in Hebrews 6, where the author gives to us mere professing Christians, and then contrasts that with the real and genuine ones that will have been producing evidence of change lives now in Christ!

Exactly, Paul is teaching believers to be careful about Antinomianism (Anti-Law). Because there are people who think that since believers are under Grace and not under the Law. They do not have to adhere to the Law anymore. And this premise is in error.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive to God​

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Side NoteAntinomianism): The word antinomianism comes from the Greek anti, against, and nomos, law. It is the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God, using God's grace as a license to sin, and trusting grace to cleanse of sin. In other words, since grace is infinite and we are saved by grace, then we can sin all we want and still be saved. It is wrong because even though as Christians we are not under the Law (Rom. 6:14), we still fulfill the Law in the Law of love (Rom. 13:8, 10; Gal. 5:14; 6:2). We are to love God with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves (Luke 10:27) and, thereby, avoid the offense of sin which cost God His only begotten Son. Paul speaks against the concept of antinomianism in Rom. 6:1-2: "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" We are not to use the grace of God as a means of sin. Instead, we are to be controlled by the love of God and in that way bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22-25).

This term (Antinomianism) was coined by Martin Luther the great Reformer of the Reformation and champion of Justification by Faith Alone!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Exactly, Paul is teaching believers to be careful about Antinomianism (Anti-Law). Because there are people who think that since believers are under Grace and not under the Law. They do not have to adhere to the Law anymore. And this premise is in error.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive to God​

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Side NoteAntinomianism): The word antinomianism comes from the Greek anti, against, and nomos, law. It is the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God, using God's grace as a license to sin, and trusting grace to cleanse of sin. In other words, since grace is infinite and we are saved by grace, then we can sin all we want and still be saved. It is wrong because even though as Christians we are not under the Law (Rom. 6:14), we still fulfill the Law in the Law of love (Rom. 13:8, 10; Gal. 5:14; 6:2). We are to love God with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves (Luke 10:27) and, thereby, avoid the offense of sin which cost God His only begotten Son. Paul speaks against the concept of antinomianism in Rom. 6:1-2: "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" We are not to use the grace of God as a means of sin. Instead, we are to be controlled by the love of God and in that way bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22-25).

This term (Antinomianism) was coined by Martin Luther the great Reformer of the Reformation and champion of Justification by Faith Alone!

In order to continuer to grow more into the image of Jesus in our lives, we must trust and rely upon the Holy Spirit working in and thru us, for when we do that, we shall be found keeping the Moral aspect of the law of God!

 

[Oldmantook]

Paul is assuming here though that those who have been saved will now indeed be living by the Spirit, and not living according to the flesh. Similar thing occurs in Hebrews 6, where the author gives to us mere professing Christians, and then contrasts that with the real and genuine ones that will have been producing evidence of change lives now in Christ!

No. Explain to me how the word IF which occurs twice and is contained in the two clauses of Rom 8:13 indicates CERTAINTY? "If" only indicates possibility; maybe even probability but never certainty. If Paul were "assuming here though that those who have been saved will now indeed be living by the Spirit" he would have utilized the word SINCE. "Since" indicates certainty. Thus your premise is grammatically unfounded.

Furthermore unlike English, Koine Greek is a very specific language. As I wrote earlier, Rom 8:13 is an example of a 1st class conditional sentence in the Greek. For the sake of warning the brethren, Paul assumes that if the protasis is true (the condition) - living according to the flesh, then the apodosis (the consequence) - spiritual death, is also true. You would have to explain to me why this is not a 1st class conditional sentence and how it cannot mean what the Greek grammar indicates. Thus if believers are living according to the flesh - they will spiritually die.

As far as Heb 6 goes, a nonbeliever is never referred to as being "enlightened," "partakers of the Holy Spirit," "tasted the goodness of God" in vs.4-5. Thus your claim that these are not genuine Christians is unsupported by the text itself. Moreover, a knowledge of the Greek is also helpful here. The verb tense in v.6 is critical in understanding this passage. Since they are crucifying/ anastaurountas (present tense participle) and shaming/paradeigmatizontas (present tense participle) Christ- they are in still engaged in sins of willful rebellion against God. Their continued actions in this manner give ample evidence that they have not repented. Since these believers have not repented and turned away from these sins but continue to do them, it is impossible "to be restored again to repentance" since they choose to continue sinning. Thus they have become lost; forfeited their salvation.

 

[YeshuaFan]

No. Explain to me how the word IF which occurs twice and is contained in the two clauses of Rom 8:13 indicates CERTAINTY? "If" only indicates possibility; maybe even probability but never certainty. If Paul were "assuming here though that those who have been saved will now indeed be living by the Spirit" he would have utilized the word SINCE. "Since" indicates certainty. Thus your premise is grammatically unfounded.

Furthermore unlike English, Koine Greek is a very specific language. As I wrote earlier, Rom 8:13 is an example of a 1st class conditional sentence in the Greek. For the sake of warning the brethren, Paul assumes that if the protasis is true (the condition) - living according to the flesh, then the apodosis (the consequence) - spiritual death, is also true. You would have to explain to me why this is not a 1st class conditional sentence and how it cannot mean what the Greek grammar indicates. Thus if believers are living according to the flesh - they will spiritually die.

As far as Heb 6 goes, a nonbeliever is never referred to as being "enlightened," "partakers of the Holy Spirit," "tasted the goodness of God" in vs.4-5. Thus your claim that these are not genuine Christians is unsupported by the text itself. Moreover, a knowledge of the Greek is also helpful here. The verb tense in v.6 is critical in understanding this passage. Since they are crucifying/ anastaurountas (present tense participle) and shaming/paradeigmatizontas (present tense participle) Christ- they are in still engaged in sins of willful rebellion against God. Their continued actions in this manner give ample evidence that they have not repented. Since these believers have not repented and turned away from these sins but continue to do them, it is impossible "to be restored again to repentance" since they choose to continue sinning. Thus they have become lost; forfeited their salvation.

The author contrasts though in Hebrews 6 those who were not saved, as shown by their departure from Jesus, and those who remained with Him and showed that they were really saved!
Also, Jesus made it very clear that ALL who He saves will be raised up in the end , and that NONE would be lost again, and Paul confirmed that truth by his sealing of and by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption of the body at the time of the Second Coming!

 

[Oldmantook]

The author contrasts though in Hebrews 6 thoise who were not saved, as shown by their departure from Jesus, and those who remained with Him and showed that they were really saved!

How is it possible that not saved applies to partakers of the H.S., tasted the heavenly gift, tasted the goodness of God? How is it possible that those not saved can depart from the faith when they were never a part of the faith to begin with? Only genuine believers can depart from the faith since they were indeed part of the faith to begin with. That is why v.6 states that they committed apostasy - which can only apply to believers. Your explanation makes little sense. Heb 6 parallels perfectly with Rom 8:13 as these two passages confirm that living according to the flesh is the evidence of a non-repentant lifestyle resulting in no forgiveness and spiritual death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Part I

Agreed, people do tend to twist Scripture to fit their presuppositions. I appreciate that you are addressing my inquiries, for that I say thanks.​

You are most welcome.

But Paul now understanding that no sinful flesh can find LIFE in the Law! The Law bought knowledge of sin; and with that proved to be DEATH to Paul! Does Paul find fault with the Law? Because Paul says the Law deceived him. How did the Law deceived Paul? The Law did not deceive Paul; Paul deceived himself by thinking he was Perfectly Righteous and able to fulfill the requirements of the Law and receive the promised life of doing so.

Paul acknowledges that the is Holy, righteous and good. So did that which is good kill Paul? Is it the Law's fault that Paul sinned? Let's read the following passages to get the answer.

13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions.For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Paul in vvs. 13-16, goes on explaining his struggle with sin. The key here to grasp, is that, Paul is struggling with sin; as believers do. Here is the war raging between the flesh and the spirit that Paul speaks of in Galatians. And this is the fight the believer goes through the rest of his/her life. Notice how Paul says, the things he does not want to do, he does, and the things his wants to do, he does not! Then says, I have the DESIRE to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. But I find something interesting here. Paul says, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me". Why does Paul say this? Because as believers we are still in these bodies of death. We have not received our new bodies. This is why we have a raging war between the flesh and the Spirit. Until we receive our glorified bodies.

I will conclude in Part II

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question.

It says,
"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,
"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Part I

Agreed, people do tend to twist Scripture to fit their presuppositions. I appreciate that you are addressing my inquiries, for that I say thanks.

I beg to differ, and I will provide Scripture that Paul was struggling with sin as a Christian.

7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Now if you read these passages correctly, Paul is speaking of Law and how the Law bought knowledge of sin, when He once believed He had no sin! Paul says, "I was once alive apart from the Law". Why did Paul say this? He answers it in the following passages. He thought the commandment (Mosaic/Moral Law) promised LIFE! And Paul is correct by saying this. The Covenant of Works given to the first Adam to fulfill through Obedience would have merited Eternal Life and enter eschatological Sabbath rest with the Father; Adam would have been granted access to the tree of LIFE! So in essence if anyone fulfills the Law with Perfect Flawless Obedience, they will merit Eternal life. And this was given to the first Adam to do.

But Paul now understanding that no sinful flesh can find LIFE in the Law! The Law bought knowledge of sin; and with that proved to be DEATH to Paul! Does Paul find fault with the Law? Because Paul says the Law deceived him. How did the Law deceived Paul? The Law did not deceive Paul; Paul deceived himself by thinking he was Perfectly Righteous and able to fulfill the requirements of the Law and receive the promised life of doing so.

Paul acknowledges that the is Holy, righteous and good. So did that which is good kill Paul? Is it the Law's fault that Paul sinned? Let's read the following passages to get the answer.

13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions.For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Paul in vvs. 13-16, goes on explaining his struggle with sin. The key here to grasp, is that, Paul is struggling with sin; as believers do. Here is the war raging between the flesh and the spirit that Paul speaks of in Galatians. And this is the fight the believer goes through the rest of his/her life. Notice how Paul says, the things he does not want to do, he does, and the things his wants to do, he does not! Then says, I have the DESIRE to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. But I find something interesting here. Paul says, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me". Why does Paul say this? Because as believers we are still in these bodies of death. We have not received our new bodies. This is why we have a raging war between the flesh and the Spirit. Until we receive our glorified bodies.

I will conclude in Part II​

​

You appear to think that the Bible does not teach you can overcome grievous sin because even Paul struggled with sin as a Christian. But if you don't believe my Scriptural points on Romans 7, I have provided below a list of verses that plainly state that you can overcome grievous sin in this life.

A General List of Verses on Overcoming Sin:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).
(Note: While this verse is not specifically talking about overcoming sin, it is implying that by the fact that false prophets are defined here in the fact that they cannot cease from sin).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19).​

Memorize these verses and put them on the inside of your heart.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Part I

Agreed, people do tend to twist Scripture to fit their presuppositions. I appreciate that you are addressing my inquiries, for that I say thanks.

I beg to differ, and I will provide Scripture that Paul was struggling with sin as a Christian.

7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Now if you read these passages correctly, Paul is speaking of Law and how the Law bought knowledge of sin, when He once believed He had no sin! Paul says, "I was once alive apart from the Law". Why did Paul say this? He answers it in the following passages. He thought the commandment (Mosaic/Moral Law) promised LIFE! And Paul is correct by saying this. The Covenant of Works given to the first Adam to fulfill through Obedience would have merited Eternal Life and enter eschatological Sabbath rest with the Father; Adam would have been granted access to the tree of LIFE! So in essence if anyone fulfills the Law with Perfect Flawless Obedience, they will merit Eternal life. And this was given to the first Adam to do.

But Paul now understanding that no sinful flesh can find LIFE in the Law! The Law bought knowledge of sin; and with that proved to be DEATH to Paul! Does Paul find fault with the Law? Because Paul says the Law deceived him. How did the Law deceived Paul? The Law did not deceive Paul; Paul deceived himself by thinking he was Perfectly Righteous and able to fulfill the requirements of the Law and receive the promised life of doing so.

Paul acknowledges that the is Holy, righteous and good. So did that which is good kill Paul? Is it the Law's fault that Paul sinned? Let's read the following passages to get the answer.

13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions.For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Paul in vvs. 13-16, goes on explaining his struggle with sin. The key here to grasp, is that, Paul is struggling with sin; as believers do. Here is the war raging between the flesh and the spirit that Paul speaks of in Galatians. And this is the fight the believer goes through the rest of his/her life. Notice how Paul says, the things he does not want to do, he does, and the things his wants to do, he does not! Then says, I have the DESIRE to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. But I find something interesting here. Paul says, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me". Why does Paul say this? Because as believers we are still in these bodies of death. We have not received our new bodies. This is why we have a raging war between the flesh and the Spirit. Until we receive our glorified bodies.

I will conclude in Part II​

​

In Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), the talk of holiness and conforming to Christ is an illusion because they also say you can sin on occasion and yet you are still saved (Hence, your defense of your interpretation that Paul struggled with sin as a Christian in Romans 7). This is what the two fold message of Eternal Security is all about.

However, we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
(Note: The WMA, and MP3 files in this source link may not work; But the Real Video Audio files do work last I checked; So please select the Real Video Audio files).

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
George Sodini:

More Suicide Victims and OSAS:
SUICIDE Commit Suicide Symptoms Suicidal Victims

 

[Just_a_Christian]

According to the scriptures, baptism into Christ is absolutely essential to being saved or having sins forgiven. In order to believe that faith only saves, one has to explain away so many verses of scripture, if not just simply ignore. Not to mention the Bible states that all scripture is given by inspiration and profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction so that the man of God may be complete. The Lord Jesus commanded in the great commission. Mark 16:16. Go ye therefore into all the world and preach the gospel unto every creature that whosoever believes and is baptised shall be saved. There are no less than 11 (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12-13, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 10:48, Acts 16:15, Acts 26:33, Acts 17:8, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-6, Galations 3:27) verses where baptism is mention in connection to someone being saved, converted or added to the church. The gospel of Christ is the saving avenue for all today and the scriptures state that the gospel is something which must be obeyed: "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: - 2 Thessalonians 1:8" and again in Romans 6:17-18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness". Faith is not an act of obedience; but rather faith leads to obedience. Then we have scripture that tell us baptism saves, 1 Peter 3:20-21 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: - and in Acts 22:16, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord". Those who would have you believe a lie will use a plethora of man's writing that are not of God but rather the "higher" understanding of man. When we have two or more verses that do not match our belief or understanding, we modify our understanding instead of creating a way that makes null and void God's word. That is NOT rightly handling the word of Truth. If we only had one verse concerning baptism, I might be persuaded, but probably not. 1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

 

[SkyWriting]

Look in Scripture for the Truth.

Search for "will be saved" like at biblegateway dot com
to see
what is written in Scripture, not man's tradition.

It is very much an eye opener, God Willing.

Note even "will be" of the phrase "will be saved" .....

More importantly, see what God Says in His Word.

I do seek truth in scripture instead of your rambling posts.
Which include only your opinions.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I do seek truth in scripture instead of your rambling posts.
Which include only your opinions.

Always studying, yet you never came to any knowledge of the truth, in Scripture or otherwise, as noted in your posts and by the observers here.
Instead rebelling against all that is right...

Why? because of the pain you experience? Because of the pot (or oil) you say you use?
Because you love the approval of your family ? Your neighbors (who you posted in the past are perverts) ?

Those cannot excuse sin.

 

[SkyWriting]

Alwaysstudyingyet younevercametoanyknowledgeofthetruthinScriptureorotherwiseas noted in your posts and by theobservers hereInsteadrebelling against all that is right Why because of the pain you experienceBecauseof the potor oil you say you use?Because you lovethe approval of your familyYour neighbors who you posted in the past are pervertsThose cannot excuse sin.

I was saved at 1003 W. Atkinson St. Apt. #4, 2002
Your evaluation has no effect on that.
If only you had more power to save than Jesus.
What a great world this would be!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I was saved at 1003 W. Atkinson St. Apt. #4, 2002
Your evaluation has no effect on that.

Then you are posting things from terrible, abominable sources in your posts - your emphasis on getting people to say okay to perverse sinning, to all sinning, without repentance.

If you repented and got saved good; now, today, why haven't you stopped sinning, turned away from sinning, turned to God? If you want to stop sinning, then show it with truth, instead of twisting every post and every Scripture to promote rebelliousness and abominable sin.

 

[SkyWriting]

Then you are posting things from terrible, abominable sources in your posts - your emphasis on getting people to say okay to perverse sinning, to all sinning, without repentance.
If you repented and got saved good; now, today, why haven't you stopped sinning, turned away from sinning, turned to God? If you want to stop sinning, then show it with truth, instead of twisting every post and every Scripture to promote rebelliousness and abominable sin.

I don't actually alter the scripture. Got anything else to wish on before you go?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't actually alter the scripture. Your conclusions are vapors.

Just observations, agreeing with all Ekklesia , with Yeshua,
about your 'sin' brought out, exposed, in the LIGHT of HIS WORD.
i.e. no deductions involved, no conclusions involved.
Your own words are what condemn you - as Jesus Says Clearly in Scripture.

Forgiveness is possible, we hope and pray, after repentance - after you turn away from perverted selfish sin you posted in your own words for years, and repent, according to God's Word,
not anyone's conclusions, vapors or illusions.