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Featured Is a "second" coming Bible Prophecy or an interpretation of Bible prophecy?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Daniel Martinovich, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Allow me to qualify what I mean first.

    There is no phrase "second coming" in the New Testament. The Greek word for "second" and the Greek word for "coming" do not exist in the same sentence in the NT in this context. The phrase that does exist is "the coming of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord." (The only two places the two words exist in the same sentance in the NT are Luke 12:38, Luke 19:18. But not related to the coming of the Lord. )

    The eschatological viewpoint of Futurism teaches that all Bible prophecy future of Jesus and the Apostles is referring to a "second" coming. A one time series of events at the end of the world as we know it. The eschatological viewpoint called Preterism goes to great lengths to teach a "second" coming occurred in 70 A.D. The other eschatological viewpoints might differ a little on the doctrine of a "second" coming but allow for fulfillment of Bible prophecy future of Jesus and the apostles in the space between them and a "second" coming at the end of the world as we know it.

    My question is. Since as far as I know every mainstream eschatological view seems to accept this phrase that does not exist in the Bible as "the gospel." Is there a possibility that there is room in mainstream Christianity for the rejection the phrase itself as just one of the many interpretations of Bible prophecy and not Bible prophecy itself? A rejection of the phrase "the second" coming and the embracing of the phrase "the coming" or "the day" of Lord that may or may not have anything to do with a series of events at the end of the world as we know it.

    Here is a little of my argument for the rejection of the phrase.

    Note*All scriptures are referencing a literal\physical appearance of the Lord to bring or oversee judgment or salvation and the fulfillment of promise. In these scriptures. Whether he can be seen with the eyes of a flesh and bone human being depends on if the Lord chooses to miraculously allow an individual or group to see him or his angels. If he is not seen it not because he was not there or did not come but because he chose to not miraculously open someone's eyes to see him.

    Genesis 3
    The voice of the Lord, or the Word of the lord, or, Jehovah the Word came down to the garden and announced the world would be cursed through Adam. Yet promised salvation.

    Genesis 7:16
    The Lord shut the door on the ark. The day of the greatest judgment the world ever saw.

    Genesis 18
    Jehovah the Word comes with two angels, has dinner with Abraham and discusses the pending judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Exodus 3:8
    The Lord has come down to judge Egypt and bring promise to Israel

    Isaiah 13:1-22
    The day of the Lord comes for Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon at the hands of Medo-Persia

    Isaiah 19:1-4
    The Lord comes on a cloud to conquer Egypt at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon.

    Micah 1:2-9
    The Lord comes down to destroy the northern kingdom of Israel by the hand of the Assyrians.

    Ezekiel 30:1-11, Jeremiah 46: 1-26
    The day of the Lord comes for Egypt at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon.

    Note* There are dozens of these prophecies in the OT against ancient Israel, Judah and all the nations around them that use every single illustrative phrase used in the NT about the day of the Lord when he comes in judgment future of Jesus and the apostles.

    Matthew 24:1-36. Mark 13:1-32. Luke 21:1-32
    The most well known day of the Lord when he came in judgment in the destruction Ancient Israel at the hands of Prince Titus. Son of the emperor of Rome.

    Daniel 2:31-45, Daniel 7:1-28, Revelation 19
    The coming of the Lord at the end of the age of the four gentile empires named in scripture; to usher in an age of promise.

    Matthew 24:37- 25:1-46; Mark 13:33-37; Luke 21:34-36
    A transition from the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. to a teaching that all nations and peoples in the future will face these days of the Lord and need to prepare for them.

    1 Corinthians 4:5
    A teaching to be careful in judgment and to wait until the Lord comes to reveal sin or righteousness in individuals or churches. This is shown in the next set of verses.

    Revelation 2-3
    A prophecy to seven literal churches that no longer exist about the coming of the Lord to six of seven of them to judge sin and reward righteousness.

    This is by no means every single prophecy or instance of the coming the Lord in scripture. Obviously the coming of Jehovah the Word in a flesh body, born of a virgin. Suffered for the sins of mankind and was raised from the dead; assumed the throne of the earth as the Son of David, descendent of Abraham is of a different nature than these on this list. Then certainly the prophecies of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel and Revelation during the age of promise, after the age of the four gentile empires. Those are prophecies that illustrate the nations and peoples who seek to conquer the peoples influenced by the Gospel, the Word in this age of promise. They have sought to stop the growth of the influence of the invisible Government of God on earth; but in those prophecies are destroyed. How could those days not be days of the Lord when these wars of aggression that cost 100's of millions of lives were stopped and the aggressors conquered? (Nor are we through with this.)

    What about the end of the world as we know it? Not to say there will not be one. Not to say the Lord would not come to rescue his people from it. But to say: The Bible does not conclusively prophesy one. I hope someone can see by this argument and these scriptures why the phrase "second coming" should be widely known as an interpretation of Bible prophecy and not Bible prophecy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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  2. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie

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    It's not an interpretation. The term "second coming" comes from Heb. 9:28,

    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I agree with the first response from Charlie above.

    Some things not literally stated are still Biblical fact. For example, Jesus did come a first time, therefore any reference to Him coming again is logically the second time. There are several verses which support this.

    #1. Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said. "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

    #2. Acts 3:19-21 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you - even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

    #3. Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

    #4. 1 Corinthians 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

    #5. 1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

    #6. 1 Corinthians 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

    #7. 1 Corinthians15:23-24 But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    #8. Philippians 1:10 So that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ - to the glory and praise of God.

    #9. Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

    #10. Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

    #11. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

    #12. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? Indeed, you are our glory and joy.

    #13. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

    #14. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

    #15. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    #16. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

    #17. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

    #18. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

    #19. 1 Timothy 6:13-16 I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time - God the blessed and only Ruler, the King of Kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    #20. 2 Timothy 4:1-2 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage- with great patience and careful instruction.

    #21. 2 Timothy 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

    #22. Titus 2:12-14 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

    #23. Hebrews 9:28 Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

    #24. Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the day approaching.

    #25. Hebrews 10:37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.

    #26. James 5:7-9 Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

    #27. 1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

    #28. 1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.

    #29. 1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

    #30. 1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice that you participate in the suffering of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

    #31. 1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

    #32. 2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

    #33. 2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is the 'coming' he promised?

    #34. 2 Peter 3:8-10 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

    #35. 1 John 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

    #36. 1 John 3:2-3 Dear friends, now we are like children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

    #37. Jude 1:14-15 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

    #38. Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

    #39. Revelation 1:4 To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from who is, and who was, and who is to come.

    #40. Revelation 1:7-8 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega”, says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    #41. Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it.

    #42. Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

    #43. Revelation 22:12-13 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    #44. Revelation 22:20-21 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
     
  4. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    That is not the Greek word for coming but the Greek word "to appear."
    Hebrews 9:28 Interlinear: so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!
    Strong's Greek: 3708. ὁράω (horaó) -- to see, perceive, attend to
     
  5. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Those all fit just fine into the scenario I laid out to. I mean there is no disagreement between any of them and the scenario I laid out.
     
  6. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    This subject is probably one of my favorite, if not, my absolute favorite subject in the Bible.

    As the way I understand from personal study is that Jesus Christ will return again to the earth to reap the harvest (Joel 3:13) of the earth, that is to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. This is known as the "rapture," although the term itself never appears in the Bible. This is evidenced by multiple scriptures (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28, Revelation 14:19, Revelation 7:9).
    It is pretty conclusive in my opinion that the Day of the Lord is the day in which Jesus Christ returns in the clouds with the sound of a trumpet (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and every eye shall see him (Revelation 1:7, Acts 1:9-11) and all of the earth shall mourn (Matthew 24:30), after the loosing of the 6th seal in which the sun and moon are to be darkened, the powers of heaven shaken, and the stars will fall from heaven (Revelation 6:12-13, Matthew 24:29-30, Isaiah 13:9-11, Joel 3:15-16) to save his elect from the persecution of and war upon the saints by the antichrist (Revelation 13:7-8, Daniel 12:9-10, Revelation 6:9-11), otherwise known as the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:14-15), in which we shall all be caught up together in the clouds, with the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17); knowing that Christ will not come back before the revealing of the antichrist (1 John 2:18), with Paul warning us not to be deceived that the time of Christ is at hand until after the son of perdition appears (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3). After God's wrath is poured out upon the earth for 42 months through the vials and trumpets of God (this is a post-rapture event, after Christ gathers his elect according to Revelation 6:17), the day of Atonement comes in which God as Christ will return to fight against all the nations of the earth at the battle of Armageddon and establish his millennial kingdom upon earth with Christ as King (Zechariah 14:3-9, Revelation 19:11-21), at which time Satan shall be bound up for 1000 years (Revelation 20:3). Then shall Satan be loosed for a little season after the 1000 years to deceive the nations again (Revelation 20:7) to bring them to battle against the Lord and his people at Jerusalem in the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:8, Ezekiel 38:14-18) at which point God shall reign down fire from heaven, consuming the armies of the world (Ezekiel 38:19-23) and throwing Satan in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:9-10). Then shall the Lord renew the earth and heaven and never again shall sin or evil be mentioned (Revelation 21:1-4).
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Many make this claim but 'rapture' means caught up or harpazo in the Greek. How we got 'rapture' was from the Latin for "caught up" which is rapiemur.

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

    The KJV translates Strong's G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    1. to seize, carry off by force

    2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

    3. to snatch out or away
    Latin Vulgate same verse:

    deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    I know this may be trivial but I like to be precise. :)
     
  8. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    I'm aware. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 perfectly describes what the Greek means, which is a potato/patato issue, I think.
     
  9. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    That is all pretty typical interpretation of Bible Prophecy of those who seek to contextualize all those verses into the phrase: "The second" coming. My question is: Is it possible that there is a context outside the phrase "the second" coming. Since that phrase is not in the scripture? And, since the Lord has come to earth so often like this?
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's irrelevant. Second coming and second appearance are the same things. That debunks your theory of no second coming/appearance by Christ.
     
  11. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Jesus has promised to “come again”. John 14

    He will keep His promise. 1 Thessalonians.4
    Matthew 26
     
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  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I believe the laundry list of verses I posted show there will be only one culminating and final coming of Jesus Christ, not multiple.

    The doctrine of the two comings or advents of Messiah is shown here:

    Isaiah 61: World English Bible (WEB)


    61 The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me;
    because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble.
    He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted,
    to proclaim liberty to the captives,
    and release to those who are bound;
    2 to proclaim the year of Yahweh’s favor,

    and the day of vengeance of our God;

    In the purple above notice it is indicative of the first coming of Messiah. As Jesus confirms here:

    Luke 4: World English Bible (WEB)

    16 He came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. He entered, as was his custom, into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 The book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. He opened the book, and found the place where it was written,

    18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
    because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
    He has sent me to heal the broken hearted,
    to proclaim release to the captives,
    recovering of sight to the blind,
    to deliver those who are crushed,
    19 and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”


    20 He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began to tell them, “Today, this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1-2a and did not proceed to verse 2b "and the day of vengeance of our God."

    That comes later of course as evidenced in the Olivet Discourse and many other NT references to His Coming in Glory. (Matthew 25:31)
     
  13. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    It is not an insignificant nothing that the word to describe when the Lord comes in the great days of judgment in the Bible is not the word see or perceive, but the various words for coming. Dozens of usages and never the word second attached to them. Your kind of making my point about this whole dilemma. You automatically contextualizing Hebrews 9:28 within the teaching of a second coming. When this verse is just as easily contextualized into what I am presenting.

    Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.

    That the judgment occurs when we die. We go to heaven or hell, immediately. Those that look for him will see him, when they die. Apart from sin which probably means they saw Jesus walk the earth in a flesh and blood body but now they will see him apart from that , or apart from their own flesh and bone body. So the " seeing or to perceive " which what this word is, I mean out of 684 occurrences it is translated "will appear" only twice; appeared 13 times. Not that its wrong. Just emphasizing a point. That contextualizing it into prophecy at all much less the doctrine of the second coming is an interpretation of Bible prophecy and not Bible prophecy itself.
     
  14. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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  15. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    Titus 2:13-14 - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." The first verse is future tense, and the second verse is past tense. Indicates events yet to come, i.e. prophecy.

    Hebrews 9:28 - "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation." First part of verse is past tense, second part is future tense. Indicates events yet to come, i.e. prophecy.

    Jude 14-15 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." What's a saint? Ephesians 1:1 answers that as being those who are faithful in Christ Jesus. So Christ is coming with his saints - I haven't seen Christ come back yet with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgement upon all the ungodly. Let me know if I missed something, but that seems like prophecy to me.

    Comparing scripture with scripture, all of it lines up with the idea of a single event known as the day of the Lord in which he brings salvation to those who believes, and then he comes back with all of his saints to establish his kingdom. Contextualize however you want, but scripture cannot contradict scripture, and the scripture aligns by saying Jesus will come a second time, a second appearance with great power and glory in the clouds to gather together his elect, and then to execute judgement after that.
     
  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not at all. Two verses literally say he is coming again. You are simply denying that a second appearance is not going to happen despite it saying that. The other verse says he is coming again and the context is his leaving and returning.

    Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
    Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
    Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
    Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
    Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
    Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
     
  17. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    True the day of vengeance of our God comes later. But, if that day of vengeance is not the end of the world but other great days of judgment, like I am proposing. Look at the good news you get to have with the rest of the chapter.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, ...........and the day of vengeance of our God.........to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint to them that mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers (Gentiles) shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. (Meaning people of all nations would be pastors and prophets working in the field of the Lord, the world, as ministers of the Gospel.) 6 But you shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: you shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall you boast yourselves. 7 For your shame you shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be to them. 8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD has blessed. 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth brings forth her bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. (Meaning, the Word of God will transform the nations. As it has been and will continue to.}

    There are 100 hundred chapters of an age of promise like this your missing out on. Actually your living in that age of promise not knowing that it was the God, the Gospel, the word, his providence, and the blood sweat and tears of Christians that gave it to you.
     
  18. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Those all just fit just fine with my theology. He comes again, just not once more. Not just to do what these verses list either mind you , which are awsome. But to do lots more, on earth, long before it ever ends (as we know it.)
    I am thinking your so conditioned with what you have accepted as gospel that you cannot conceive of what I am saying. I didn't mean agree with it. Just conceive it.
     
  19. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I gave a lot of scripture to you know, where the Lord came in multiple great days of judgment. You can't just throw out prophecy that you have placed within a frame work of your understanding. Thinking that will make me see its all referring to a one time series of events at the end of the world. I already talked about Hebrew 9-28 a few comments previous also. Remember what I am selling here. The idea that the phrase "second coming" is extra Biblical. I'm am still saying the Lord comes, just not one time at the end of the world. Nor one time in the first century either even though he came to Jerusalem.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't see any evidence of that either. He returns and I have never seen anything that suggests he ever leaves again.
     
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