Is a SAB&LAW discussion possible???

[Cribstyl]

First, In consideration of the Sab&Law statement of purpose and rules in red below:

Sabbath and the Law Statement of Purpose

The Sabbath and the Law forum is for discussing a variety of topics related to Sabbath day worship and keeping the law. All member's who participate in this forum are self-identified Christians through adherence to the Christian Forums' Statement of Faith and the Trinitarian nature of God. It is expected that people who post in the Sabbath and the Law forum will respect all members of the Christian faith. Honest and vigorous discussion and debate is welcomed, but simply attacking another member or group of members is not allowed. Discussions in this forum may at times become heated, so please remember to keep your emotions in check and your responses in line with our sitewide rules and the following guidelines.

We cannot ignor the two sided coin about being pro law or pro faith.
It seems reasonable that discussions here should not be to ignor or avoid each other but to provide an answers to every reasonable question.

Those in the law camp creates more than 90% of the threads. True or False?
That means I'm playing defense most of the time.
Because scripture should settle all truth, I make it a prime objective to try and present what the scriptures say about their questions, in hope that they would return similar respects to my question.


Is it possible to have a thread where we get answer?


Why cant we establish what we believe in dialog?

The reason why I worship primarily on Sundays should being a good question for me to answer.

Who is being accused of being lawless?

(Edited)................

 

[SAAN]

First, In consideration of the Sab&Law statement of purpose and rules in red below:



We cannot ignor the two sided coin about being pro law or pro faith.
It seems reasonable that discussions here should not be to ignor or avoid each other but to provide an answers to every reasonable question.

Those in the law camp creates more than 90% of the thread. True or False?
I make it a prime objective to try and present what the scriptures say about their questions, in hope that they would return similar respects to my question. Fairness does not seem to work. They mostly ignor or highjack my threads for their agenda.:o

Their dialog often begins with the premise that; "all sin is trangression of the law", which was evident in heaven with Satan and on earth with Adam.
Their responses are often to double down with more claims rather than a direct response or scriptures.

We often find a strategy are never to resolve any point with scripture, but rather to force their understanding that the law still applies.

It seems more likely that challenging the law camp for direct answers leads to bad blood and thread closures.

<Staff edit>
Is it possible to have a thread where we get answer?

Why cant we establish what we believe in dialog?

The reason why I worship primarily on Sundays should being a good question for me to answer.

Who is being accused of being lawless?

(Edited)................

I think the issue is that Christians will see a command in the bible and have 50 threads on why not to keep that command vs why they should keep it.

The person will quote scripture as proof and the rebuttal is always traditions vs scriptures and then a scripture is quoted on not follows traditions over scripture and it goes back and forth.

This seems to be the basis behind most Sabbath debates or law discussions or the usual taking a verse out of context and forming a doctrine out of it.

 

[Steeno7]

First, In consideration of the Sab&Law statement of purpose and rules in red below:



We cannot ignor the two sided coin about being pro law or pro faith.
It seems reasonable that discussions here should not be to ignor or avoid each other but to provide an answers to every reasonable question.

Those in the law camp creates more than 90% of the thread. True or False?
I make it a prime objective to try and present what the scriptures say about their questions, in hope that they would return similar respects to my question. Fairness does not seem to work. They mostly ignor or highjack my threads for their agenda.:o

Their dialog often begins with the premise that; "all sin is trangression of the law", which was evident in heaven with Satan and on earth with Adam.
Their responses are often to double down with more claims rather than a direct response or scriptures.

We often find a strategy are never to resolve any point with scripture, but rather to force their understanding that the law still applies.

It seems more likely that challenging the law camp for direct answers leads to bad blood and thread closures.

<Staff edit>
Is it possible to have a thread where we get answer?

Why cant we establish what we believe in dialog?

The reason why I worship primarily on Sundays should being a good question for me to answer.

Who is being accused of being lawless?

(Edited)................

I see no way of having constructive dialog with those who have nothing but deception to work with, and who are cool with that. We are here basically just correcting lies with the truth, not so much even for them, but for others who may stumble in.

 

[Cribstyl]

I think the issue is that Christians will see a command in the bible and have 50 threads on why not to keep that command vs why they should keep it.

The person will quote scripture as proof and the rebuttal is always traditions vs scriptures and then a scripture is quoted on not follows traditions over scripture and it goes back and forth.

This seems to be the basis behind most Sabbath debates or law discussions or the usual taking a verse out of context and forming a doctrine out of it.

Respectfully Sir..............
You're proving my point. Genesis 2:1-3 does not say that man was given sabbath at creation. Where's your proof.
Who is taking scriptures out of context?
We see that God gave the sabbath commandment after the Children of Israel left Egypt. (Ex16, Ex 20)

The back and forth happens because your statement is loaded and your truth is being questioned for fact we cant find from you.

Your statement mischaracterize our possition and you ignor from direcly responding to what we post?
Who makes 50 thread about the the sabbath pro law or pro faith?

Did you thinks it's fair to say that Sunday is not a worship day?

 

[SAAN]

Respectfully Sir..............
You're proving my point. Genesis 2:1-3 does not say that man was given sabbath at creation. Where's your proof.
Who is taking scriptures out of context?
We see that God gave the sabbath commandment after the Children of Israel left Egypt. (Ex16, Ex 20)

The back and forth happens because your statement is loaded and your truth is being questioned for fact we cant find from you.

Your statement mischaracterize our possition and you ignor from direcly responding to what we post?
Who makes 50 thread about the the sabbath pro law or pro faith?

Did you thinks it's fair to say that Sunday is not a worship day?

In regards to Gen 2, people that try to point the Sabbath to that is turning a descriptive text into what they want it to mean. It never says God rested so like wise so must you, so I agree on that verse should not be used to show the Sabbath was a command since the garden.

When I say scriptures out of context. Im talking about when people just take 1 random verse and form a doctrine about it. There is many examples of that on here from the pro sabbath and anti Sabbath. Rom 14:5 is an example as it is flipped into just pick a day for worship rather than the actual context being about fasting and vegetarianism


As far as "We see that God gave the sabbath commandment after the Children of Israel left", you can say like wise about the other commands as well, but that doesnt mean only the children of Israel shouldnt lie, steal, commit adultery, etc.

"Did you thinks it's fair to say that Sunday is not a worship day?"
I have no problem with Sunday, as that is the day I go to church and worship and we are to worship God everyday. I have been judged and condemned plenty about Sunday, so I decided to look up what I do and why I do it.
But I am also real with myself now as to why we worship on Sunday as well, as it is simply tradition and was not commanded by God to worship on Sunday, but I know he will honor it anyways. I dont hold anything against anyone who keeps the Sabbath, as it is a actual command from God, but that is on them how they want to keep that day.

 

[BobRyan]

God affirms the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3 by directly pointing to it in Ex 20:11 as the foundation, reason and initiation of the Sabbath.

Christ points to Gen 2:1-3 when he speaks of the making of BOTH the Sabbath and mankind. "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- speaks of the "making" of both - found only in Gen 1:2-2:3.

Here again is a point that many of even the pro-Sunday scholars will accept from the Bible - not just the many seventh day Sabbath groups.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cribstyl]

In regards to Gen 2, people that try to point the Sabbath to that is turning a descriptive text into what they want it to mean.

Agreed

It never says God rested so like wise so must you, so I agree on that verse should not be used to show the Sabbath was a command since the garden.

Agreed

When I say scriptures out of context. Im talking about when people just take 1 random verse and form a doctrine about it.

An example would help make your argument.

There is many examples of that on here from the pro sabbath and anti Sabbath. Rom 14:5 is an example as it is flipped into just pick a day for worship rather than the actual context being about fasting and vegetarianism

Kudos for an example and a reasonable dialog so far.
You're chosing to call someone's commentary of Rom 14:5, as taking scripture out of context? and also; "creating a doctrine with 1 scripture"? Doesn't seem accurate or true friend. Why not characterize it as simply commentary?

Let's look at the verse: 1 person worships on one day and another person worships as every day is alike.

What's hard to understanding?
The fact that Paul said; let everyone be persauded in their own mind means that Paul is not saying that only one day is good for worship.
You're saying that Rom 14:5 is relating to fasting and vegetarianism? Really????



It's clear to many that the subject in context is about judging other. The idea about vegetarianism is a stretch of the fact.

As far as "We see that God gave the sabbath commandment after the Children of Israel left...",

you can say like wise about the other commands as well, but that doesnt mean only the children of Israel shouldnt lie, steal, commit adultery, etc.

"Did you thinks it's fair to say that Sunday is not a worship day?"

I have no problem with Sunday, as that is the day I go to church and worship and we are to worship God everyday. I have been judged and condemned plenty about Sunday, so I decided to look up what I do and why I do it.
But I am also real with myself now as to why we worship on Sunday as well, as it is simply tradition and was not commanded by God to worship on Sunday, but I know he will honor it anyways. I dont hold anything against anyone who keeps the Sabbath, as it is a actual command from God, but that is on them how they want to keep that day.

Sorry Pal, It seems to me that you've fallen to a minority opinion that you're trying to sell to other.
We can talk that issue if you wish.

 

[Cribstyl]

I see no way of having constructive dialog with those who have nothing but deception to work with, and who are cool with that. We are here basically just correcting lies with the truth, not so much even for them, but for others who may stumble in.

Good point.

 

[disciple1]

Am I wrong in posting this.
Hebrews chapter 7

11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.




18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

 

[bugkiller]

First, In consideration of the Sab&Law statement of purpose and rules in red below:



We cannot ignor the two sided coin about being pro law or pro faith.
It seems reasonable that discussions here should not be to ignor or avoid each other but to provide an answers to every reasonable question.

Those in the law camp creates more than 90% of the thread. True or False?
I make it a prime objective to try and present what the scriptures say about their questions, in hope that they would return similar respects to my question. Fairness does not seem to work. They mostly ignor or highjack my threads for their agenda.:o

Their dialog often begins with the premise that; "all sin is trangression of the law", which was evident in heaven with Satan and on earth with Adam.
Their responses are often to double down with more claims rather than a direct response or scriptures.

We often find a strategy are never to resolve any point with scripture, but rather to force their understanding that the law still applies.

It seems more likely that challenging the law camp for direct answers leads to bad blood and thread closures.

(Rants)
Is it possible to have a thread where we get answer?

Why cant we establish what we believe in dialog?
Why must you dictate to me why I worship on Sunday?
Who is accusing who of being sinners and lawless?
Who is being deceptive?

Discussion? What is that? How does one have a conversation with someone who refuses to answer questions and runs from them with something else? We can't even talk about passages from the Bible. They refuse.

Another thing is there has to be some agreement on what a give word really means in a given passage.

The best I can do is stick up for the truth.

bugkiller

 

[JohnRabbit]

God affirms the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3 by directly pointing to it in Ex 20:11 as the foundation, reason and initiation of the Sabbath.

Christ points to Gen 2:1-3 when he speaks of the making of BOTH the Sabbath and mankind. "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- speaks of the "making" of both - found only in Gen 1:2-2:3.

Here again is a point that many of even the pro-Sunday scholars will accept from the Bible - not just the many seventh day Sabbath groups.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cribstyl]

Am I wrong in posting this.
Hebrews chapter 7

11. If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12. For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.




18. The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

19. (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

These scriptures are all pertaining to 1 commandment (being called a law) that must be changed for their to be a priesthood other than from the line of Aaron.

So, the former regulation (law) that was set aside was the commandment that only a Levite could be a priest forever.
Exo 40:15

And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

 

[Cribstyl]

Discussion? What is that? How does one have a conversation with someone who refuses to answer questions and runs from them with something else? We can't even talk about passages from the Bible. They refuse.

Another thing is there has to be some agreement on what a give word really means in a given passage.

The best I can do is stick up for the truth.

bugkiller

I understand. May God have mercy on each of us.

 

[bugkiller]

In regards to Gen 2, people that try to point the Sabbath to that is turning a descriptive text into what they want it to mean. It never says God rested so like wise so must you, so I agree on that verse should not be used to show the Sabbath was a command since the garden.

When I say scriptures out of context. Im talking about when people just take 1 random verse and form a doctrine about it. There is many examples of that on here from the pro sabbath and anti Sabbath. Rom 14:5 is an example as it is flipped into just pick a day for worship rather than the actual context being about fasting and vegetarianism


As far as "We see that God gave the sabbath commandment after the Children of Israel left", you can say like wise about the other commands as well, but that doesnt mean only the children of Israel shouldnt lie, steal, commit adultery, etc.

"Did you thinks it's fair to say that Sunday is not a worship day?"
I have no problem with Sunday, as that is the day I go to church and worship and we are to worship God everyday. I have been judged and condemned plenty about Sunday, so I decided to look up what I do and why I do it.
But I am also real with myself now as to why we worship on Sunday as well, as it is simply tradition and was not commanded by God to worship on Sunday, but I know he will honor it anyways. I dont hold anything against anyone who keeps the Sabbath, as it is a actual command from God, but that is on them how they want to keep that day.

Many verses and arguments have worked very well for ages. Now we have more access to more ideas and discussion than ever. When People get to talking one never knows what might show up as not having been thought of. The focus has changed quite a bit as well. It is no longer just people of position making statements to establish the truth. We have better Bible study aides as well.

I still find most people won't examine what and why they believe as they do. Just don't tell them anything different. They can't defend what they believe because they refuse to read the Bible. This means everything they believe is based on proof texts often times ignoring other passages that affect the proof text sometimes adversely. I questioned a preacher involved in regional religious leadership and he couldn't defend his position from anything except that's the way its always been.

Church has been mostly a social scene for as long as I can remember with status seekers controlling a group to a large degree.

Do not try asking a pastor anything unless you're willing to have an it is so because I said so and I'm your pastor. That went out the door long before I became of age for me. Its a nice and awful thing for me being a naturally curious person with loads of questions. Those unwilling to have a reasonable discussion with me have become life threatening killers.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

God affirms the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3 by directly pointing to it in Ex 20:11 as the foundation, reason and initiation of the Sabbath.

Christ points to Gen 2:1-3 when he speaks of the making of BOTH the Sabbath and mankind. "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 -- speaks of the "making" of both - found only in Gen 1:2-2:3.

Here again is a point that many of even the pro-Sunday scholars will accept from the Bible - not just the many seventh day Sabbath groups.

in Christ,

Bob

No. We have had this talked about before. There is no Sabbath in Genesis 2. The Sabbath has some basis in Genesis 2 as a reason for it being instituted post exodus of Egypt. There are more as pointed out in Deuteronomy 5:15.

MK 2:27 is taken totally out of context and doesn't agree with the words of Moses. as is intended. Jesus is talking to Jews about the Sabbath and not the whole world. Yes I understand the word anthr&#333;pos. Moses says the Sabbath was given to Israel alone and not the world. Ex 31:13

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

I still need explained to me if the whole does it, how it is special to Israel. Please don't say the verse is only about the special Sabbaths. The verse is all inclusive in its language.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

First, In consideration of the Sab&Law statement of purpose and rules in red below:
​

I see no way of having constructive dialog with those who have nothing but deception to work with, and who are cool with that.
We are here basically just correcting lies with the truth, not so much even for them, but for others who may stumble in.

Yeah, I can hang with that........

2 Thess 2:11
and thru this, God is sending them an in-working of-deception/planhV <4106>,
into to believe them to the falsehood

 

[Wordkeeper]

Why the angst? Rebutting the SDA is useful in preventing new recruits. Those who read their posts can see the obfuscation and see the deception.

Sometimes, SDA opponents recant.

It's on their own head.

Good job, bros.

 

[Cribstyl]

Why the angst? Rebutting the SDA is useful in preventing new recruits. Those who read your posts can see the obfuscation and see the deception.

Sometimes, SDA opponents recant.

It's on their own head.

Good job, bros.

I would not deny righteous indignation.
I would want new recruit of any group to know what they're getting themselves into.

What is the deception and the truth you're alledging to?

 

[Wordkeeper]

I would not deny righteous indignation.
I would want new recruit of any group to know what they're getting themselves into.

What is the deception and the truth you're alledging to?

Oops, I mean, their deception.

Edited to correct that.

 

[BobRyan]

Why the angst? Rebutting the SDA is useful in preventing new recruits. Those who read their posts can see the obfuscation and see the deception.

.

So then the point about the majority of even pro-Sunday scholarship admitting to the continued binding nature of the TEN Commandments on the saints of God and that this began in Eden and continues to this very day.

The short-sighted tactic of trying to make this topic "all about SDAs" only to find that the Bible doctrines most at war against are the very same ones affirmed by the majority of even pro-Sunday scholars destroys that entire line of attack against the Sabbath as part of the TEN Commandment Law of God.

Were we simply " not supposed to notice"??