Irrefutable Bible facts about God's Sabbath

[Lost4words]

True but we do enjoy "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition against the Bible.

As they did in Acts 17:11 "studies the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were SO"

Sola scripture is not biblical though

 

[EJ M]

Was there some text that you meant to post in that statement -- "the Above is how.."??

Prior posts above in the thread.
I posted consecutively however CF does not at times.

 

[BobRyan]

God is not confined to just the Bible,

True but we do enjoy "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition against the Bible.

As they did in Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were SO"

Sola scripture is not biblical though

Do you consider Acts 17:11 to be Biblical?

 

[EJ M]

Mishnah is interesting collection of Jewish oral traditions.

I was talking about the Bible.

So what is to be understood from this thread is this is an endless debate that will never be resolved
ever since Ellen White made sabbath keeping the SDA chief cornerstone.
There is no SDA consensus as to what is required in Sabbath keeping like the Jews do.so........
What is abundantly clear in Acts 15 is keeping the sabbath isn't part of the law of Moses brought into the NT for gentiles.
There is a local 3ABN radio station and the overwhelming theme in most sermons and programs is the 7th day sabbath, keeping the commandments. Some very good programs on health though.
However I never heard a sermon on the other 9.
In fact I heard that divorce and remarriage is as prevalent in the SDA church as in secular society.
Perhaps more sermons and programs should address adultery as in the 8th commandment?
This is very much brought into the NT.
However as a lover of truth, if there is ever a universal Sunday law, as SDAs prophesies claim, (interpretation of the Mark of the Beast, according to SDA teaching), I will be the most enthusiastic SDA of all.
Until then, my rest is Jesus Christ as is clear in Heb 4.

 

[Lost4words]

Sola scripture is NOT biblical...

 

[BobRyan]

And of course now that we are not gathering sticks and starting fires by hand -- but rather "push button...warm food" the ideal is that we cook the food on the "preparation day" (Friday) and then without manually rubbing sticks to start fires or going out to collect wood --- pushing a button to warm food up thus not diverting any time at all away from the focus on the Sabbath.

Sabbath keeping Christians of all denominations that do that - get this point instantly... but often those who ignore the 4th commandment entirely say they are confused on this tiny detail , and so refusing even to worship on the Sabbath.

Still... certain details are soooo incredibly obvious both sides admit to them.

Baptist Confession of Faith --

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   

So what is to be understood from this thread is this is an endless debate

On the contrary - we see in the example above that certain Bible details are so glaringly obvious both sides agree to them.

What is more we see in the OP certain Bible details so obvious and irrefutable that even you could not refute them.

So while there are areas that are debatable - the list of incredibly obvious and also downright-irrefutable is much larger than your massive glossing-over statement above would allow.

 

[BobRyan]

God is not confined to just the Bible,

True but we do enjoy "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and tradition against the Bible.

As they did in Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were SO"

Sola scripture is not biblical though

Do you consider Acts 17:11 to be Biblical?

Sola scripture is NOT biblical...

Do you consider Acts 17:11 to be Biblical?

Bye all. Had a guts full of life,,,,

instructive for the unbiased objective reader

 

[BobRyan]

What is abundantly clear in Acts 15 is keeping the sabbath isn't part of the law of Moses brought into the NT for gentiles.

Acts 15 does not mention "do not take God's name in vain" for gentiles.
Acts 15 does not mention "honor your father and mother" for gentiles
Acts 15 does not mention "Love God with all your hear" for gentiles.
Acts 15 is never said to be the "new downsized-to-two-paragraphs bible" for gentiles. Which means all the above "still applied to gentiles" just as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith freely admit.

And we all know it.

Rather Acts 15 deals specifically with circumcision which was never for gentiles in OT or NT.

Details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

In fact I heard that divorce and remarriage is as prevalent in the SDA church as in secular society. .

fake news.

Many claims exist where some outside the Christian church claim that the divorce rate inside the Christian church is the same as outside - but those claims do not take into account the people inside the Christian church that were not practicing Christians at the time of their divorce.

Details matter.

====================

Divorce Rate in the Church – As High as the World?

"Divorce Rate in the Church – As High as the World?
By Glenn Stanton


It’s one of the most quoted stats by Christian leaders today. And it's perhaps one of the most inaccurate.

Based on the best data available, the divorce rate among Christians is significantly lower than the general population.

Here's the truth …

Many people who seriously practice a traditional religious faith – be it Christian or other – have a divorce rate markedly lower than the general population.

The factor making the most difference is religious commitment and practice.

The intuitive is true! Couples who regularly practice any combination of serious religious behaviors and attitudes – attend church nearly every week, read their Bibles and spiritual materials regularly; pray privately and together; generally take their faith seriously, living not as perfect disciples, but serious disciples – enjoy significantly lower divorce rates than mere church members, the general public and unbelievers.

Professor Bradley Wright, a sociologist at the University"

====================

Not the focus of this thread -- but an interesting topic for another thread.

 

[Lost4words]

Bye all. Had a guts full of life,,,,

 

[BobRyan]

Until then, my rest is Jesus Christ as is clear in Heb 4.

Hebrews 4 "there REMAINs a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- remains from WHEN? Hebrews 4 specifically points to Psalms 95:8-11 at the time of David. How was Sabbath observed at the time of David? on week-day-1?

 

[EJ M]

Like I said, endless debate, Jesus alone will resolve it when He comes.
All ten commandments were brought into the NT, on a much higher level.
I propose a simple test similar to Elijah's test on Mt Carmel.
If going to church on Sunday is the mark of the beast as prophesied by the SDA church,
You obviously believe this to be a prophesy inspired by God, so prophesy when the universal Sunday law will happen. Surely if God revealed this to you, He could also reveal when the Sunday law will be in effect, to you.
If, on your date it happens, multitudes will flock to the SDA church including me and all I could persuade to join me.
If not, it will become the second great disappointment. ( the first one spawned the SDA church)
Up to the challenge?

 

[BobRyan]

And of course now that we are not gathering sticks and starting fires by hand -- but rather "push button...warm food" the ideal is that we cook the food on the "preparation day" (Friday) and then without manually rubbing sticks to start fires or going out to collect wood --- pushing a button to warm food up thus not diverting any time at all away from the focus on the Sabbath.

Sabbath keeping Christians of all denominations that do that - get this point instantly... but often those who ignore the 4th commandment entirely say they are confused on this tiny detail , and so refusing even to worship on the Sabbath.

Still... certain details are soooo incredibly obvious both sides admit to them.

Baptist Confession of Faith --

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   

So what is to be understood from this thread is this is an endless debate

On the contrary - we see in the example above that certain Bible details are so glaringly obvious both sides agree to them.

What is more we see in the OP certain Bible details so obvious and irrefutable that even you could not refute them.

So while there are areas that are debatable - the list of incredibly obvious and also downright-irrefutable is much larger than your massive glossing-over statement above would allow.

Like I said, endless debate, Jesus alone will resolve it when He comes.

Like I said - lots of points of agreement where the Bible details are so incredibly obvious that "both sides" agree.

All ten commandments were brought into the NT, on a much higher level.

Higher.. not delete-them-lower.

Notice in Mark 7:6-13 what Christ's response is to the attempts to "edit/downsize" one of the Ten?

Christ's view of the Commandments of God - is a safe and obvious place to be.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Matt 19 Jesus said "keep the Commandments" and then in that chapter Jesus is asked "which ones?" - His answer comes right out of the TEN.

 

[BobRyan]

-- so then "yes" there are obvious points of agreement on "both sides" but in addition there are the "irrefutable details" that hold up - no matter which side one is on regarding this topic.

-- let's just look at basic irrefutable Bible facts about God's Sabbath.

1. Jer 31:31-33 the NEW covenant says "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind". Exegesis demands that we admit that the author (Jeremiah in this case) and his primary audience knew that the TEN Commandments were spoken by God Himself and written by God Himself -- in stone. And that the Sabbath is one of them. This is irrefutable. (Note that in Heb 8:6-10 that New Covenant is unchanged from the Jeremiah 31 form)

2. Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" (section 19) and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" (section 19) affirm that ALL TEN of the Ten commandments are included in the moral law of God "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant. This is irrefutable. They do say that.

3. God says the Sabbath was "made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 and that "All mankind" is to come before God for worship "From Sabbath to Sabbath" Isaiah 66:23 and in Isaiah 56:5-8 gentiles are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath -- this is irrefutable. The text says it.

4. God says that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 and Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 .. this is irrefutable.

5. God says the Sabbath is a day of worship and holy convocation Lev 23:3, Isaiah 66:23 this too is "irrefutable".

6. God says the Sabbath is not a day for secular activity of any kind - Isaiah 58:13-14. This is irrefutable.

7. In the OT there were many commands and many promises. In the OT the Ten Commandments were distinguished from all of them because
a. Only the TEN were kept inside the ark
b. Only the TEN were written by God Himself on stone.
c. Only the TEN were spoken directly by God to all Israel.
e. Only in the unit of TEN do we find the commandment with a promise that starts with "Honor your father and mother" as the FIRST commandment with a promise.

And in the NT we have that SAME acceptance of the TEN where the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

This too is irrefutable.

According to Christianity Today - in a Feb 2015 article - the Seventh-day Adventist church is the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet Earth. Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

And it has world wide programs on internet, radio, TV as well as a lot of local congregations.

(I only mention this last point because you ask about the availability of seventh day Sabbath keeping groups - and the Adventist church is one of them)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[EJ M]

-- so then "yes" there are obvious points of agreement on "both sides" but in addition there are the "irrefutable details" that hold up - no matter which side one is on regarding this topic.

-- let's just look at basic irrefutable Bible facts about God's Sabbath.

1. Jer 31:31-33 the NEW covenant says "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind". Exegesis demands that we admit that the author (Jeremiah in this case) and his primary audience knew that the TEN Commandments were spoken by God Himself and written by God Himself -- in stone. And that the Sabbath is one of them. This is irrefutable. (Note that in Heb 8:6-10 that New Covenant is unchanged from the Jeremiah 31 form)

2. Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" (section 19) and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" (section 19) affirm that ALL TEN of the Ten commandments are included in the moral law of God "written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant. This is irrefutable. They do say that.

3. God says the Sabbath was "made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 and that "All mankind" is to come before God for worship "From Sabbath to Sabbath" Isaiah 66:23 and in Isaiah 56:5-8 gentiles are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath -- this is irrefutable. The text says it.

4. God says that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 and Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 .. this is irrefutable.

5. God says the Sabbath is a day of worship and holy convocation Lev 23:3, Isaiah 66:23 this too is "irrefutable".

6. God says the Sabbath is not a day for secular activity of any kind - Isaiah 58:13-14. This is irrefutable.

7. In the OT there were many commands and many promises. In the OT the Ten Commandments were distinguished from all of them because
a. Only the TEN were kept inside the ark
b. Only the TEN were written by God Himself on stone.
c. Only the TEN were spoken directly by God to all Israel.
e. Only in the unit of TEN do we find the commandment with a promise that starts with "Honor your father and mother" as the FIRST commandment with a promise.

And in the NT we have that SAME acceptance of the TEN where the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

This too is irrefutable.

According to Christianity Today - in a Feb 2015 article - the Seventh-day Adventist church is the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet Earth. Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

And it has world wide programs on internet, radio, TV as well as a lot of local congregations.

(I only mention this last point because you ask about the availability of seventh day Sabbath keeping groups - and the Adventist church is one of them)

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, there are ten.
So why are SDAs only concerned about the 4th commandment and seldom address the other 9?
If there is a controversy on any scripture the best way to get understanding is to first look at all the relevant scriptures.
And then see how the churches have historically interpreted the scripture in question.
And you will find that for about 1850 years, most Christians didn't judge others for which day they worshiped on based on Col 2:16, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.
Then along came William Miller and proclaimed the end of the world would come in 1844.
Greatly disappointed, most of his followers disbanded and went back to church.
A few however, likely reluctant to leave the excitement and hype, continued on with the unverifiable "investigative judgement" theory and thus the SDA church was spawned.
Notice Christ's Name is nowhere in the churches title. Only the chief cornerstone,
the seventh day.
I have SDA friends and my greatest concern isn't the overwhelming enthusiasm for the seventh day, It's the attempt to downsize Jesus into an archangel.
Sadly, the SDA, Mormon, and JW churches claim somehow Michael the archangel morphed into Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 1 is abundantly clear, Jesus Christ is not an angel, never was, never will be.
He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
I worry about my SDA friends that they are Michaelians, instead of Christians.
Peace upon all who love the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not trying to flame or goad, only interested in proclaiming the truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, there are ten.
So why are SDAs only concerned about the 4th commandment .

1. See the title of this thread -- it is about the 4th commandment. I like to stay on topic. But the OP responds to someone else who is not SDA and who started this subject in another area of the board.
2. SDAs have a lot to say about the first two commandments getting stepped on as well.
3. And like those who appreciate section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" we read and discuss all TEN. hint I especially like to remind people of the 3rd commandment "do not take God's name in vain" -- usually a few dozen times ever month or so on this CF website.

 

[BobRyan]

Ex 20:8-11 -- "God says - A"
but then "man says B"

Col 2:16, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

Many annual Sabbath days in Lev 23. Colossians 2 is not about deleting the Bible it is about not "making stuff up".

Sadly, the SDA, Mormon, and JW churches claim somehow Michael the archangel morphed into Jesus Christ.

Sadly some folks do not look at the details enough to know that the statement above is not true regarding Seventh-day Adventists.

Go back to Col 2 and notice that the problem being condemned there is "making stuff up" -- in the case of your statement above that includes "making stuff up about Adventists". Think about it. I think you shot yourself in the foot on that one.

 

[EJ M]

Ex 20:8-11 -- "God says - A"
but then "man says B"



Many annual Sabbath days in Lev 23. Colossians 2 is not about deleting the Bible it is about not "making stuff up".
I like to keep it simple, not knowing Greek or Hebrew, my Lord has made His word understandable
without wresting and spinning the scripture.

Sadly some folks do not look at the details enough to know that the statement above is not true regarding Seventh-day Adventists.

Go back to Col 2 and notice that the problem being condemned there is "making stuff up" -- in the case of your statement above that includes "making stuff up about Adventists". Think about it. I think you shot yourself in the foot on that one.

Check this SDA author out. ( I checked both my feet out, no gunshot holes);
Who Is Michael The Archangel? | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts
And now this;
Ellen White identifies Michael as both "the Captain of the Lord's host" and as "the Angel of Jehovah." That apparently makes Michael the "angel of the Lord" mentioned several times in the OT.
"Again: Christ is called the Word of God. John 1:1-3. He is so called because God gave His revelations to man in all ages through Christ. It was His Spirit that inspired the prophets. 1 Peter 1:10, 11. He was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord's host, Michael the Archangel."
--under Notes to the Volume
White, Ellen G.. CONFLICT OF THE AGES: THE FIVE BOOKS. Patriarchs And Prophets; Prophets And Kings; The Desire Of Ages; The Acts Of The Apostles; The Great Controversy (Timeless Wisdom Collection) (Kindle Locations 48768-48770). Business and Leadership Publishing. Kindle Edition.

 

[BobRyan]

Check this SDA author out. ( I checked both my feet out, no gunshot holes);
Who Is Michael The Archangel? | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts

The independent ministry link you point to -- says this.

"There is another verse in Daniel 8:25 where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned. Again, the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. "Prince of princes" is actually the same term that is translated "prince of the host" in verse 11. This is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince" (Daniel 9:25)."

In that quote he says that "God of gods", 'Lord of Lords", "King of Kings" is also known as Michael. I don't know of any Mormon or JW that claims that about Michael because they all say that such titles are titles for almighty God - and they reject Michael as being almighty God.

SDAs by contrast - do claim that God the Son - is almighty God and another name for him is Michael. Just as in Genesis 18 "three MEN" show up -- and later we are told that one is YHWH and the other two are really angels. There is no question but that God has the ability to appear in that form if He so chooses but that does not mean that God is a "mere man".

Sadly your gross equivocations glossed over all the details and creatively suggested that the SDA, Mormon, and JW view of the identity of Michael is the same. How sad. Even your own link does not back you up in that regard.

Not the topic of this thread - but if you want to start such a thread topic...

 

[reddogs]

1. True - Jews do not keep Sunday.
2. True - that many Christians think that Christ's resurrection should be remembered every 7 days on week-day 1 ... even though there is no example of such a thing in all of the Bible.
3. True - that those same Christians think that the 7 day creation event should be deleted by remembering a one day event from 2000 years ago "every 7 days".
4. There is not one text in the NT after the cross where the term "Sabbath" means "week day 1" - and there is not one place where the NT says "Christ was resurrected on the 7th day" or the "new 7th day" or "the new Sabbath".
5. Both Christians and Jews were meeting "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 to hear "more gospel preaching".
6. There is not one text in NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the Lord's day" -- in fact the Lord's day is the Sabbath according to Mark 2:28 "Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath"


The Bible says that Christians also "keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 and some of them know enough to keep Sabbath as one of God's commandments for the Bible says "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19.

Many Christians "Love God" and have read the Bible enough to know "this IS the Love of God that we keep His commandments" 1 John 5:3-4

That's one of the reasons Jesus warns about those who say they love God but do rather what goes against His commandments.

Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

"22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."