Iraq: The cradle of Civilization

[abraham]

Arikay;

There is plenty of evidence to support a global flood. You see the evidence as supporting evolution/long ages; I see it as supporting Creation/6,000 year history. Grand Canyon is a remarkable example. (Perhaps we could start a thread just on Grand Canyon?)

Since neither of us were there when the Flood happened, we have only our own ideas of what happened.

However, where you and I differ greatly is that I trust the eye-witness accounts of life before the Flood from Adam, Seth, Lamech and Noah; life during the Flood from Noah; and life after the Flood from his sons - people who left us first-hand accounts of what happened. YHWH also used other prophets later on to add more information.

I trust YHWH and those humans who were there.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Today at 04:23 PM abraham said this in Post #41 Grand Canyon is a remarkable example. (Perhaps we could start a thread just on Grand Canyon?)

There are threads on the Grand Canyon.

The interesting thing is that the Grand Canyon is one of those features that poses the most significant problems for YECism and flood geology.

Look here:

my thread on twelve features of the Grand Canyon that cannot exist in a Young Earth, flood geology scanario


And there are other threads that have been made showing how flood geology is false:

notto's thread on the Hawaiian Island Chain

ardipithecus' thread on angular unconformities

my thread on varve deposits

and arikay's thread on the mathematical problems with the flood model

Since neither of us were there when the Flood happened, we have only our own ideas of what happened.

Except geologists' ideas of what happened is grounded in evidence from the geologic record where YECists ideas are enforced only by ignoring evidence that contradicts their Biblical interpretation.

Since the flood must evidently be such a relatively recent feature, there should be evidence of the event. Furthermore, there should be enough water on earth for such an event, yet there is not. Most importantly is that there exist features that CANNOT be a product of only a global flood on a young Earth.

However, where you and I differ greatly is that I trust the eye-witness accounts of life before the Flood from Adam, Seth, Lamech and Noah; life during the Flood from Noah; and life after the Flood from his sons - people who left us first-hand accounts of what happened. YHWH also used other prophets later on to add more information.

I trust YHWH and those humans who were there.

Except the account wasn't actually written by people who were there.

It's interesting that you would rather value what a book says rather than the creation of your creator which is far more telling than hearsay.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

The Bible clearly states that the entire earth was reshaped after the Flood; so-called "Flood geology" in no way contradicts the Bible.

Where is this clearly stated? I thought it was supposed to be Moses who wrote Genesis.  Actually I think it's pretty clear to non fundamentalist commentators that Genesis had more than one author but that's another story.

If you are refering to the division of the lands in the time of Peleg even AiG says that it is a political division of the lands that is being described.

It seems pretty clear to me that the Eden is supposed to have been located in the Middle East using landmarks and even describing nations that would have been familiar to readers at the time the traditions of the people were being recorded. If I was decribing something that was near Moscow Idaho I would be sure to say that I meant the Moscow in Idaho and not the one in Russia so I think the excuse that the rivers may be different ones with the same names is pretty lame. 

I assume that John is referring to use of the Hebrew words Adamah and Erets, which do not alway mean the entire earth, to describe the area that was flooded in his local flood interpretation.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Arikay]

There has already been one, although it got rather cluttered and you are free to start another one.

Unfortunatly though, in it, it was shown that the crand canyon is Not a good example for the flood. A couple non complicated (as it got rather complicated) points were that,

-Mt Saint Helen's isnt a good example of how layering occured in the grand canyon, as the material the grand canyon is made out of, is much different than the sediment of Mt Saint helens.

-The meandering S curves and horseshoe curves of the grand canyon. It must have been an odd global flood to have carved these curves out.

-Many of the little things like algea (not sure if thats the correct name) found in the rocks, require shallow, calm, water and along time to form. The flood wasnt shallow, calm or long.

I can show you math in my math thread that says, based on the bible, the flood couldnt have happend. There are problems like Noahs blue whale problem, how did he get a blue whale or other sea life on his boat (and, yes, whales needed to be on the boat to survive). Etc.

Today at 01:23 PM abraham said this in Post #41

Arikay;

There is plenty of evidence to support a global flood. You see the evidence as supporting evolution/long ages; I see it as supporting Creation/6,000 year history. Grand Canyon is a remarkable example. (Perhaps we could start a thread just on Grand Canyon?)

Since neither of us were there when the Flood happened, we have only our own ideas of what happened.

However, where you and I differ greatly is that I trust the eye-witness accounts of life before the Flood from Adam, Seth, Lamech and Noah; life during the Flood from Noah; and life after the Flood from his sons - people who left us first-hand accounts of what happened. YHWH also used other prophets later on to add more information.

I trust YHWH and those humans who were there.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 04:45 PM Arikay said this in Post #44 


Unfortunatly though, in it, it was shown that the crand canyon is Not a good example for the flood.

-Many of the little things like algea (not sure if thats the correct name) found in the rocks, require shallow, calm, water and along time to form. The flood wasnt shallow, calm or long.

It does not really matter how the rocks were formed. What matters is how the canyon itself was formed. Most of it was formed about 12000 years ago, when the ice age began to come to an end and all that ice began to melt.

As the ice melted and the earth began to replenish itself, the old world that was here, before the ice age was laid open and exposed for all to see.  

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Today at 10:05 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #45



It does not really matter how the rocks were formed. What matters is how the canyon itself was formed. Most of it was formed about 12000 years ago, when the ice age began to come to an end and all that ice began to melt.

As the ice melted and the earth began to replenish itself, the old world that was here, before the ice age was laid open and exposed for all to see.  

Sure, it does matter how the rocks were formed otherwise there would be no erosional canyon as a result. It took longer for the rocks to form than it did for the canyon to be weathered away. It matters with respect to the Young Earth model with the global flooding mechanism that was being argued. I can see how it doesn't matter with yours.

 

[abraham]

29th March 2003 at 04:35 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #42






Except the account wasn't actually written by people who were there.

It's interesting that you would rather value what a book says rather than the creation of your creator which is far more telling than hearsay.

You have proof of course that Noah did not write a portion of Genesis?

Since the Bible is YHWH's revelation to man, recorded by numerous men over several centuries, yes. Which is more important - the Creator or the creation? The Builder or the building?


FRUMIOUS -

You did not realise that Genesis is not the only book of the Bible to talk about the Creation?!

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Today at 04:39 PM abraham said this in Post #47




You have proof of course that Noah did not write a portion of Genesis?

Since the Bible is YHWH's revelation to man, recorded by numerous men over several centuries, yes. Which is more important - the Creator or the creation? The Builder or the building? 

So you have extrabiblical proof that the Bible is some sort of divinely inspired, perfect revelation to man perfectly recorded and that Noah was one such author who accurately described what you say?

You're the one making the claims.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

FRUMIOUS -

You did not realise that Genesis is not the only book of the Bible to talk about the Creation?!

And which one tells about the flood depositing thousands of feet of sediment all over the world? Where is the one that talks about mountains poping up from nowhere during and after the flood?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[abraham]

Frumious - You do not know where the mountains arising is found in Scripture?!

Mech - You made a claim that Genesis was not written by eyewitnesses. I was merely asking for "proof" of this...

Mech, do you believe in God?

 

[Arikay]

Abraham, it doesnt really work that way. Generally, when you make the claim that Genesis was written by eye witness, You must back up the claim with evidence.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Today at 06:48 PM abraham said this in Post #50
Mech - You made a claim that Genesis was not written by eyewitnesses. I was merely asking for "proof" of this...

Mech, do you believe in God?

Of course I don't believe in God, first of all. Second, there is no evidence that the Bible was written by the same people who actually experienced such events in some cases. That's not a debate I care about in the least, however because it's been done already.

The point I was trying to make has already been made earlier. Instead you completely dodged it all in your reply. Once again:

Look here:

my thread on twelve features of the target=_blank>Grand Canyon that cannot exist in a Young Earth, flood geology scanario


And there are other threads that have been made showing how flood geology is false:

notto's thread on the target=_blank>Hawaiian Island Chain

ardipithecus' thread on target=_blank>angular unconformities

my thread on target=_blank>varve deposits

and arikay's thread on the target=_blank>mathematical problems with the flood model


Global flood model = falsified.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

You do not know where the mountains arising is found in Scripture?!

No, but I know where the earth being fixed and immobile and the sun going around it is found.

The Frumious Bandersnatch. 

 

[abraham]

FRUM - where is that?

MECH - since you don't believe in God, there is no point in discussing Biblical revelation...

ARIKAY - Are you familiar with the Sumerian tablets found at Kish, just south of Baghdad?

 

[Arikay]

I dont know, Are you talking about the Epic of Gillgamesh?

I believe its thought that the story of the flood was taken from Gillgamesh.

Today at 04:43 PM abraham said this in Post #54

FRUM - where is that?

MECH - since you don't believe in God, there is no point in discussing Biblical revelation...

ARIKAY - Are you familiar with the Sumerian tablets found at Kish, just south of Baghdad?

 

[JohnR7]

29th March 2003 at 11:28 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #46 
I can see how it doesn't matter with yours.

It does not matter to the gap theory. You just assign it to the gap and that can be any length of time at all.




 

 

[abraham]

ARIKAY - No, I am referring to the Sumerian Kings list...

 

[Arikay]

Can you provide us with more information about them?

Today at 05:09 PM abraham said this in Post #57

ARIKAY - No, I am referring to the Sumerian Kings list...

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

FRUM - where is that?

The earth is fixed and immovable.

1 Chronicles 16:30: ” Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be

stable, that it be not moved.

Psalm 93:1 “The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed

with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established,

that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10: Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall

be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people

righteously....”

Psalm 104:5: ” Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be

removed for ever.”

and that;

The sun goes around it.

Ecclesiastes 1, 5:”The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to

his place where he arose.”

Psalm 19:4-6 Their line [the heavens] is gone out through all the earth, and

their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the

sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a

strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his

circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat

thereof." (I added the bold)

And of course Joshua stopped the sun, not the rotation of the earth.

Joshua 10:12-13: “Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD

delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight

of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of

Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had

avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a

whole day.”
Note, that if he was stopping the rotation of the earth the moon would have

‘stopped’ on its own without him telling it to.
Then there is Isaiah 38:8
"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees...ten degrees backward. So

THE SUN RETURNED ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down...." (Isaiah

38:8)
Here are site from a couple of my favorite YEC geocentrists


http://www.fixedearth.com/links/gram_semant.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bowdenmalcolm/geocexpl.htm


Bowden writes on TrueOrigins and Gish wrote a forward for his latest book.


And of course there is the famous Biblical Astronomer Gerardus Bouw.
http://www.geocentricity.com/publications.htm


The amazing thing is that Bouw has a Ph.D. in astronomy.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[abraham]

Here are a couple of links (these are non-Christian sites):


http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/sumking.html

http://www.b17.com/family/lwp/things/sumerian_king_lists.html

And a Christian link:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a009.html