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Iraq: The cradle of Civilization

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by JohnR7, Mar 23, 2003.

  1. abraham

    abraham New Member

    59
    +2
    John, you seem to know your stuff! While it has long been taught that Moses wrote Genesis, it is far more likely that he translated them from Sumerian clay tablets as you noted.

    This brings up the possibility that Genesis, especially the earlier chapters, was written by Adam, Seth, Noah, and others of that time period and later translated and recorded as a whole in its present form by Moses.

    Would you agree so far?
     
  2. notto

    notto Legend

    +627
    United Ch. of Christ

    Were these tablets on the ark? How did Noah get the tablets written by Adam and Seth. Once the flood was over, how did they get to Moses? Did moses 'find' them in Eqypt?
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Moses had to have gotten his information from somewhere. Moses writes a lot about Noah and he writes a lot about Abraham. Also he writes a lot about Joseph. So I would look at those as being three key people who provided information for Moses.

    First, you start with Noah. He survived the flood. So there is really no one else with inside information, other than Noah. Also, Noah's father Lamech died three years before the flood. But Adam was still alive for the first 52 years or so of Lamech's life. So Noah's father could very well have known Adam. Also, Seth was alive for maybe the first 150 years of Lamech's life.

    Noah's ark ended up in the mountains of what is now Armenian, north of Iraq. Some people feel that is the general area that Eden was in. There does not seem to be any question that Eden was in the furtile cresent somewhere. Armenian's today feel that they are a decendant of Noah & they they are the cradle of civilization. Recently in 1990, they became independant of the Soviet Union, so they are once again an independant country. With a Embassy here in American and we have a Embassy there. So we have a seperate diplomatic relationship with them from the Soviet Union.

    We have some sketchy stories of different events in the Bible, but nothing of any real detail until we get to Abraham. He comes out of the city of Ur, a Chaldea's city in what is now Iraq, just north of the Persian Gulf. At the time it was a port city. They were known to be learned and wise men who used the Sumnerian language. Abraham left Ur because they worshiped the moon god SIN. A word we see a lot in the Bible. We are told that Abraham was looking for a city who's maker and founder was God. That would be Jerusalam, and he did see it from a distance. I will try not to go into to much detail here.

    Next we hear about Joseph. Again, we have lots of information and many details about him and his life. This also is our Egypt connection. He could very well have had the records from Abraham and even further back to Noah. Joseph was also a very educated man. Like Noah and like Abraham.

    Then Moses comes along. A son of Pharaoh. He was well educated in Egypt, and would have had access to any book they had there. He most likely got into whatever Sumarian clay tablets that Joseph had deposited and there could have been tablets from Abraham and even back to Noah.

    Of course Moses could not take the records with him, they belonged to the Egyptian government. He could only make a copy of them. At the time the Papyrus was the popular writing methoid, so Moses would have had to translate the records from the Sumerian language into Hebrew.

    Of course in 3000 bc was the tower of Babel, when the world was split into Sumerian and Egyptian written language. Although they were both a very similar picture style writting on clay tablets.

    Another connection could be the Midians. They were known to be decendants of Abraham. Moses father in law Jethro was a priest and a wise and educated man. He use to advice Moses and showed Moses how to set up a system of judges, when the work got to be to much for him.

    I do not think we have to look to far to see where Moses got his information from.

     
     
  4. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    Where do the egyptian people come from?
     
  5. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    They usually come from Egypt.
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    After the flood Moses ended up in Armenia. A group of his decendants moved south to an area in what in now Iraq and they built the tower of Babel. When God confused their language then a group of them moved to Egypt in the delta area of the Nile, because there was very furtile land there for farming.




     
     
  7. Gracchus

    Gracchus Senior Veteran

    +750
    Pantheist
    Single
    US-Others
    Of course you mean Noah.?:scratch:
     
  8. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Yep, Noah, that is what happens when I get up in the middle of the night and start to type away on the computer when I am half asleep. Maybe I need some caffeine. Yesterday I fell asleep about 5 times at my computer.

    Our pastor says if we have any trouble sleeping, just put one of his sermon tapes in and we will be asleep in no time at all.
     
  9. ocean

    ocean Banned (just kidding)

    +3
    Agnostic
    The Garden of Eden is not in Iraq or anywhere else, it doesn't exist.
     
  10. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    The Garden of Eden is in my heart, and I can go there anytime I want.
     
  11. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    Going back to the oil for a little bit. After doing a small amount of research it seems that more than just pressure would be needed to form oil. Even when man made it requires specific chemicals to make it.
    Also, it is believed that many larger animals and plants turned into coal instead of oil.

    So the pressure of flood isnt enough to make oil.
     
  12. abraham

    abraham New Member

    59
    +2

    You are quite right. It does not now exist in Iraq, nor anywhere else. All traces of it were destroyed by the Flood.

    It is possible that Adam passed his writings to Seth, who passed them to his son, who passed it down through to Abraham and finally on down to Moses. The passing on of traditions orally still continues amongst the Bedouin of northern Africa, as well as amongst tribal groups in Papua-New Guinea. Written traditions are passed on throughout generations wherever a written language is used. Why would it be different from Adam to Moses?

    If indeed this is the case, this raises the question of whether or not Eden was in Iraq or located elsewhere...

    Will get to the oil shortly. Small local flooding would not produce the proper conditions for producing oil - with that I will agree! :)
     
  13. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    Nor does a large global flood. :)

    You should take a look at my flood math (if you havent already :) )

     
  14. Frumious Bandersnatch

    Frumious Bandersnatch Contributor

    +304
    Unitarian
    And yet it is clearly described in the Bible as being in the area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers as John says. The desperate attempt of modern "flood geologists" to reconcile science and Genesis with a worldwide flood that includes galloping continents and thousands of feet of sediment deposited all over the world ends up being inconsistent with both science and Genesis.

    Frumious Bandersnatch
     
  15. abraham

    abraham New Member

    59
    +2
    But if the earliest parts of Genesis were written by Adam, Seth, Noah, etc, there is a major flaw in looking for Eden in Iraq.

    If Adam wrote the account of Genesis 1-4, then we must see it from his pre-Flood perspective. Yes, there were 4 rivers flowing out of the great river: Pison, Gihon, Hiddekel (or "Tigris"), and Euphrates. Only two of these rivers exist. No trace has been found of the other two.

    But there is a reason for that - Adam named 4 rivers that existed BEFORE the Flood. The fact that we now have two rivers called Tigris and Euphrates does not mean that these are the exact rivers of Genesis 2. The modern rivers were named by Noah or his sons post-flood as per names existing pre-Flood.

    When the settlers came to North America they named their towns after homeland places. Pre-Atlantic crossing you have Paris, London, Berlin, Geneva, Warsaw, Aberdeen, Versailles, etc. Post-Atlantic crossing you have the same names all over Canada and the USA.

    Example - if I were to take only place names to find out where William Shakespeare lived, I would look for a city named Stratford, with a river called the Avon flowing through it. Coming to Stratford (with the Avon River), I would find a Festival Theatre where Shakespeare's works are performed annually. In fact, so revered is William that there is a small hamlet (no pun intended!) named "Shakespeare" just outside Stratford-upon-Avon. So logically I could conclude that this is Shakespeare's birthplace based upon all the evidence. Except that this city is in Ontario, not in England. Further, not too far from Stratford Ontario is a city called London, whose main river is the Thames. Am I in England or in Canada?

    Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 5:8 were written Pre-Flood, with Pre-Flood places and names. And of those original places, all trace was destroyed in the cataclysm.

    Even so, we can gather clues from Scripture and from our observations in geology to try to ascertain the whereabouts of Eden.
     
  16. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Genesis 2:10
        Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads.

    The Bible says: riverheads. The heads of the rivers are in Turkey.

    "The arguments for placing the traditional site of the original Garden of Eden in the region of Tabriz are, in a sense, interrelated and follow a logical path of deduction — each clue coming from the previous one. However, the starting point for the investigation has to be the four rivers of Eden (mentioned in the second chapter of Genesis), which had their sources in Eden. Two of the these rivers — the Perath (Euphrates) and Hiddekel (Tigris) have always been known. They have their headwaters (Hebrew roshim) in the mountains of eastern Turkey around Lake Van. The trick was to identify the other two rivers — the Gihon and Pishon. We have now been able to show that they are the Gaihun-Aras and Kezel-Uizhun, both flowing into the Caspian Sea. They have their headwaters around Lake Urmia."

    http://tlc.discovery.com/convergence/eden/expertqa.html
     
  17. abraham

    abraham New Member

    59
    +2
    John;

    I think you missed the point of my previous post - Eden and the rivers of Genesis 2 were destroyed by the Flood...

    Our modern Tigris and Euphrates are simply named after rivers which existed pre-Flood, but they are NOT the same rivers that existed when the earlier parts of Genesis were written.
     
  18. Frumious Bandersnatch

    Frumious Bandersnatch Contributor

    +304
    Unitarian
    No you miss the point.  The flood of Noah did not totally rearrange the world's geology and geography.  The modern Tigris and Euphrates rivers are those mentioned in Genesis. The verses show that the people who wrote Genesis considered Eden to have been relatively near.  I don't know about other translations but the King James version also mentions Ethiopia and Assyria, lands that were known to the Hebrews and speaks of the lands in the present tense, indicating that they exist at the time of the writing as they did at the time of the Garden.    It seems clear that they are trying to explain the geography of Eden using landmarks that would be known to the reader and not using "preflood" names.  You would think that if they were using "preflood" names of rivers and countries that just happen to be the same as those that existed after the flood,  they would have said so to avoid confusing the reader about the true location of Eden.  

    "Flood geology" is contradicted by nearly all of modern science and by the very book of the Bible that it is trying to defend.

    The Frumious Bandersnatch 
     
  19. abraham

    abraham New Member

    59
    +2
    Frumious;

    If Adam wrote the earliest parts of Genesis, he was not describing post-Flood areas of the world.

    The Bible clearly states that the entire earth was reshaped after the Flood; so-called "Flood geology" in no way contradicts the Bible.
     
  20. Arikay

    Arikay HI

    +175
    Taoist
    Abraham: The lack of evidence for a global flood would make us think that there was no global flood that reshaped things.
     
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