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Featured Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "All have sinned" and "Christ died for sinners" does not translate logically to Christ died for ALL sinners. Furthermore, supposing in some meaning of the use, that Christ did die for all sinners, this does not therefore mean that Christ intended to save all, but to OFFER salvation. And that offer would be valid if he never intended to save those of whom it was known from the foundation of the world that they would reject it.

    Or are you limiting the power of his atonement, in that he paid for the sins of some, but finally they must pay for it, too, rendering his payment un-effectual? "Efficiency" is one of the most troubling problems for "free-will"ers...

    But to the point of Scriptures on the subject, Romans 9: …20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 22 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?…

    FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE? John Owen

    The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:

    1) All the sins of all men;

    2) All the sins of some men; or

    3) Some of the sins of all men.

    In which case it may be said:

    1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;

    2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;

    3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!
     
  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So these who prayed, how were they motivated to do so --you get my point? Eventually, you can trace cause and effect back to chance (which is logical nonsense), or to God. Or you have infinite regression, which is also logical nonsense.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Are we to understand that when Jesus spoke the most beloved verse in the Bible He was not speaking literally but much as you or I, or any other person might say "world" when we really didn't mean the entire world e.g. "a world of hurt.""the whole world went crazy," etc.
    Is the "world" in John 3:16 the same "world" repeated 3 times in vs. 17?
    I wonder how many other doctrinal statements by Jesus don't really mean what they say but are only figures of speech?

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    In vs. 17 did Jesus really mean, "For God sent not his Son unto the elect to condemn the elect; but that the elect through him might be saved?"
    Is the "world' in Jn 3:16 the same "world" the other 95 times Jesus says "world?"
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  4. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    It says God hated Esau.
    To you, that means He loved Esau and wanted to save him.
     
  5. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    HA! No, unless this was you quoting me! I have been saying all along there is no such thing as chance or random.

    "Doing all he can"? You limit his ability to save his creatures?

    But to the main body of this quote:

    Then if God is the cause of it all, how can you attribute the decision to the individual as if it was sovereign. How can you say that God leaves it all up to the individual if God influences that individual according to his own plans for that individual? And if God is fair, then where did the excursion from absolute unanimity of choice come from --Chance? How is one person different from another, but by the action of God, (after your infinite regression grinds to a halt)?
     
  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I might say, in Spanish, "the whole world is now in my car." Many languages are like that, and perhaps all, including Greek, uses the term as a figure of speech. I don't claim that John 3:16 can only be used in that sense, as God's restoration of all things to himself (through the death of Christ) can be accomplished without the restoration of all people to belief in their Creator during this temporal life. John 3:16 allows for either use, or even both. But the context does refer to specific people, some who believed and some who remained condemned. It does not continue in nebulous terms referring to some grand plan into which we must fit ourselves to take advantage of what is offered.

    God did this work. Not us.
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    So you are of the opinion that God's restoration of all things to himself (through the death of Christ) can be accomplished after death? I'd like to see some scripture which more or less clearly states that.
    Not long after I joined this forum, about 2 decades or so ago, I first heard the "leopard cannot change his spots" argument for UR/universalism. While checking the context of that verse I happened on this passage.
    God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

    …..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

    · · ·
    14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

     
  8. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No; that's how they saw things then.
    If God chose someone for a purpose, that meant (to the Hebrew people) that God loved you.
    If God didn't choose you, it must have been, they thought, because you had fallen out of favour with him, or he hated you.

    God is light and there is NO darkness in him at all, 1 John 1:5.
    God is love, 1 John 4:8.
    God is perfect, Matthew 5:48.
    God created mankind and said that is creation was VERY good, Genesis 1:31.
    How could God hate anyone? Hatred is a sin; the opposite of love.
     
  9. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    It doesn't say that he died for only some of them.
     
  10. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No, I knew that sounded wrong as I was writing it.
    But Scripture says that love always perseveres, so God never gives up trying to bring people to himself. If they don't want to come, it's not through any failure on his part. He WANTS all to be saved, 2 Peter 3:9, yet even though that is his wish, he will not force it on anyone; he decided to give us free will.

    That's why Jesus says "come to me", "repent" and "anyone who believes" - he is giving an invitation. He told people they would perish if they did not repent.
    Nowhere did Jesus say "live your lives however you like. If you have been chosen to be saved, you will be. If not, there's nothing you can do about it; you might as well eat, drink and be merry now because you're going to hell."
     
  11. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    We pray because God tells us to pray.
    But even when the Spirit draws people to Jesus, or to a place where they can hear the Gospel, that is no guarantee the person will accept Jesus. They may say "not yet", become a Christian at a later date, or not at all. Or they may say "no", and mean it.
     
  12. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    I suppose you don't believe all the multitude of Bible verses
    (OT and NT both), which say that we must FEAR GOD?
     
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Of course I do.
    Fear = respect, not absolute terror.
    " There is no fear in love, because perfect love drives out all fear.' 1 John 4:18
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You miss my point. I know about prayer, and even believe that it has even eternal results. My point is, God is the one who causes; people don't pray (or do anything else) without something causing them to do so. Self-motivation, "free will", everything, is caused. Atheistic science even acquiesces to this, using terminology like "The seeds of all that is were in the big bang." Nothing happens without God having begun it, to turn out exactly as it is. (And for the deists among us, that also means, God is doing it still, since to him (time-irrelevant) there is no difference.)
     
  15. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Apparently you take Reformed believers to have the attitude we can do anything we like if we are saved. Far from it. Indeed, if we do not repent, we will perish. And yes, we even are told to soften our hearts and to take hearts of flesh instead of these hearts of stone. And yes, it is a gracious and tender offer. The Reformed do not dispute this --we only dispute where the process begins, and what exactly the process is: God in us.

    Meanwhile, 2 Peter 3:9 you have extracted from its context, which shows those he is referring to to be the elect. God is not willing that any of his elect will be lost. And so they won't.

    I still defy anyone to show me where Scripture says God decided to let free will supercede his will.
     
  16. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What doesn't? John 3:16 doesn't? No, you are right, if you take it as a stand alone verse.

    Or are you saying Scripture doesn't? Here is the beginnings of excerpts from TULIP with Scriptures There is a lot more to come with it, concerning that God has saved only a particular people, and only ever intended to save them, and that Christ died for none other, having actually paid the sin of only the elect. I think you will be hard pressed to come up with a worthy rebuttal. (Actually, I kinda doubt you will read the article linked.)

    "Fallen man, left in his dead state, is totally unable to repent, to believe the gospel, or to come to Christ.

    John.6:44 - John.6:44 (NKJ)

    44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [Note: The word here translated draws is translated as drags in other passages, such as John 21:11, Acts 21:30, and Acts 16:19.]

    John.6:65 - John.6:65 (NKJ)

    65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

    Rom.3:9 - Rom.3:12 (NKJ)

    9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

    Rom.8:7 - Rom.8:8 (NKJ)

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    1Cor.2:14 - 1Cor.2:14 (NKJ)

    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You seem to misunderstand what I was saying. God is not bound by time. He already sees it as finished. From our point of view, however, not every knee will bow, until the GWT. I don't know if that is what one must use as a measure of God's restoring all things to himself or not, but it feels like it to me. I am more than aware that the awfulness of sin would rip the space-time continuum apart (or some such grand statement) if it were not for the power and patience of God. I don't think that Christ's sacrifice forgave all those sins, but that it restored the position of the Creation logically to be finished, God preeminent in all things. It was for this that God created --the final product: the Elect, for God's own praise and glory.

    I still have a lot of studying, and I'm sure it will never be complete, even after this body is shed, I will still be learning about God and his works. But yes, before Christ's sacrifice, the question of sin is unanswered in fact. But his sacrifice produced a logical restoration of creation to its Creator, sin defeated.

    I'm not saying this happens after the end, but will be seen as such.
     
  18. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You seem to conflate God's sovereign (or in Reformed terminology "hidden") will with his commanded will. There is plenty of evidence that God is not fooled, nor did he ever plan for every descendant of Jacob to go to heaven. God has no plan B. He does not fly by the seat of his pants. I don't deny agency. Of course we choose. But only God can make our choice valid, since there is a difference between compliance and obedience.
     
  19. BCsenior

    BCsenior Still an evangelist

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    IMO, the translation is very suspect ... it means He does not wish any elect to be lost.

    Common sense and logic is all that is required ...
    Why did God give us free will, if He didn't intend for us to use it?
    Meanwhile, He sure has a multitude of ways to get us to bend to His will.
    But, the choice remains ours!

    Haven't you seen the dozen conditional "IF" verses in the NT?
    E.G. You will receive everything God has for you, IF you do such and such!
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <MQ>You seem to misunderstand what I was saying. God is not bound by time. He already sees it as finished. From our point of view, however, not every knee will bow, until the GWT. I don't know if that is what one must use as a measure of God's restoring all things to himself or not, but it feels like it to me. I am more than aware that the awfulness of sin would rip the space-time continuum apart (or some such grand statement) if it were not for the power and patience of God. I don't think that Christ's sacrifice forgave all those sins, but that it restored the position of the Creation logically to be finished, God preeminent in all things. It was for this that God created --the final product: the Elect, for God's own praise and glory.
    I still have a lot of studying, and I'm sure it will never be complete, even after this body is shed, I will still be learning about God and his works. But yes, before Christ's sacrifice, the question of sin is unanswered in fact. But his sacrifice produced a logical restoration of creation to its Creator, sin defeated.
    I'm not saying this happens after the end, but will be seen as such.
    <MQ>
    You seem to have ignored my post where I quoted Jeremiah. Did God not know or not mean what He said about the "whole house of Israel and Judah" not just a chosen or elect few. God could not have stated this any more emphatically.
    God did not say He was considering doing this but He caused it to happen.

    Jeremiah 13:11
    (11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.. . .
    Jeremiah 13:14
    (14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Because Judah and Israel would not listen and obey God He said "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Where does God later change His mind and have pity, spare, have mercy and undestroy them?
     
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