Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

[Butch5]

That's right. ALL who believe. And who will believe? Only those God has chosen, and changed believe. They can't help but believe, their hearts changed by God Almighty.

Funny how self-exalting theology puts God's choice secondary to man's choice. Really?

Where does Scripture say that God chooses and changes those who will saved?

 

[Mark Quayle]

If that's how it reads that's another issue. However, to say whosoever doesn't mean whosoever Is simply changing the meaning to fit one's theology. John 3:16 doesn't qualify the believers as those who "are given faith". It simply qualifies people are believers. We run into these problem when we try to exegete Scripture based on our theology.

John 3:16 is not stand-alone Scripture. It is true, but anything it says is tempered and defined by the whole of Scripture. But the immediate context quickly enough points out the tenor of Christ's discourse. The Spirit does what it wants. Nobody controls it. We don't even know what it is doing. Yes EVERYONE that believes in him will have everlasting life, but then, who is it that believes? --everyone God brings to himself, and whose hearts God changes. "Born of the Spirit" does not happen by the will and decision of man --but by the action of the unpredictable Spirit of God.

It is worth noting that this cause-and-effect sequence is not time-dependent. We may see the state of a person before (that is, "before", as a function of time) his belief, as condemned, and rightly so. Yet we have no way to demonstrate that his belief is not the result of God's work upon him. If he does NOT believe, certainly he stands condemned --and that "already condemned".

You might argue that the passage in several places uses the word, "because", demonstrating cause-and-effect, yet you can't show that "because" is not rhetorically equivalent to "since". Not only that, but it is backed up in many other passages that if one does not believe, as in 3:18, they are already condemned. Therefore, not "because" of their decision, but because of their status as demonstrated by their decision.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Where does Scripture say that God chooses and changes those who will saved?

Notice that Romans 8:30 makes no mention of man's decision in the sequence, "30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

There is no lack of verses saying pretty much the same.

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." is contextually about the disciples, but it the principle carries over, and why not?

Acts 14:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

John 10:26 “You do not believe because you are not among my sheep.” (He doesn't say here, “You are not among my sheep because you do not believe.”) Like this also are John 8:47 and 18:37.

1 John 4:19 "We love him because he first loved us."

Romans 9 in its entirety demonstrates "unconditional election". Notice the principle stated in verses 11 and 12, concerning Jacob and Esau, “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call..."

Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..."

Enough for now.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Actually, he does.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,1
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(Tit. 3:4-5 KJV)

The work translated washing here is poor. The word loutron literally means a bath. Paul says that God saved them through a two step process, the bath of regeneration and the renewing of the Spirit. The only bath in the Christian faith is water baptism. Peter said, 'repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. How would have people saved whose sins have not been remitted?

Paul also said,

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (Eph. 5:25-26 KJV)

The word, "word", here is rhema. It means something spoken. What is the bath of water in the spoken word? Here are Jesus' words.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:1 (Matt. 28:19 KJV)

He told them to go and baptize.

[/QUOTE]
Baptism is a picture, not a saving grace.

 

[Butch5]

Notice that Romans 8:30 makes no mention of man's decision in the sequence, "30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

There is no lack of verses saying pretty much the same.

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." is contextually about the disciples, but it the principle carries over, and why not?

Acts 14:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

John 10:26 “You do not believe because you are not among my sheep.” (He doesn't say here, “You are not among my sheep because you do not believe.”) Like this also are John 8:47 and 18:37.

1 John 4:19 "We love him because he first loved us."

Romans 9 in its entirety demonstrates "unconditional election". Notice the principle stated in verses 11 and 12, concerning Jacob and Esau, “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call..."

Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..."

Enough for now.

Yeah. Let me first say that none of these passages says that God chooses and changes who will be saved. For time sake I'm going to give a quick answer for each passage. If there are any you'd like me to elaborate on please let me know.

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." is contextually about the disciples, but it the principle carries over, and why not?

In context, in this passage Jesus is addressing His disciples. He had earlier say that no one could come to him except the Father draws him. He said that the Father had given them to Him. This is about those who literally came to Him, the disciples. In John 17 He speaks of them in the past tense as those the Father gave Him. It was a finite number. We also have to remember that Jesus said that He had only come to the lost sheep of Israel. So, those who could come to Him were Jews. No one today can come to Jesus, He's not here. Also He said in John 17 that Judas, one of those who the Father had given Him was lost.

Acts 14:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

The wording order has been changed in that verse. This is the literal interpretation.

YLT Acts 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during; (Acts 13:48 YLT)

It can read, and did believe, as many as, where appointed to eternal life. In modern English we would say as many as believed were appointed. The question is which is correct. Unless one is going to argue that there are two ways to salvation, one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles, it's the way I've presented it here. The reason is because two verses earlier Paul had said that the Jews judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. So, the reason the Jews didn't have eternal life was because they chose not to.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:46 KJV)

John 10:26 “You do not believe because you are not among my sheep.” (He doesn't say here, “You are not among my sheep because you do not believe.”) Like this also are John 8:47 and 18:37.

This is answered by my answer to the John 15 passage above. Again, this ministry was to the Jews and for a specific time.


1 John 4:19 "We love him because he first loved us."

This passage doesn't really say anything about God choosing or Changing people.

Romans 9 in its entirety demonstrates "unconditional election". Notice the principle stated in verses 11 and 12, concerning Jacob and Esau, “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call..."

Yes, it does. However, it's not about being saved. Firstly, this section of Romans 2:17-11:13 is addressed to the Jewish believers in the Church at Rome. At the beginning of chapter 9 we see that Paul is speaking of Israelites.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)

Then he says,

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (Rom. 9:6 KJV)

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. (Rom. 9:9 KJV)

In the rest of the chapter Paul goes on to explain this. This chapter is about God choosing Israel. He choose Isaac, and Ishmael, He chose Jacob and not Esau. Notice what the Choosing is in reference to.

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.1 (Rom. 9:11-12 KJV)

Paul is explaining how the promise of God to Abraham has not failed.

Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..."

Again, this passage is written to those same Jewish believers at Rome. The word "foreknew" literally means to know before. Who did God know before Paul wrote this? Who did God work all things together for good for? These were men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. However, At the end of this discourse in chapter 11 Paul tells us who those God foreknew are.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,1 (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)


That's kind of a short answer to those passages. I was trying to keep this post somewhat manageable. If you'd like me to elaborate on any of them there is much more that could be said.

In the end none of these passages say that God chooses and changes who will be saved.

 

[Butch5]

Baptism is a picture, not a saving grace.[/QUOTE]

A picture? Paul said that God saved them by the bath or regeneration and renewing of the Spirit.

 

[Steven Beck]

That's right. ALL who believe. And who will believe? Only those God has chosen, and changed believe. They can't help but believe, their hearts changed by God Almighty.

Funny how self-exalting theology puts God's choice secondary to man's choice. Really?

Sorry there is no scripture for that. Anyone can believe.

 

[Der Alte]

Notice that Romans 8:30 makes no mention of man's decision in the sequence, "30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

There is no lack of verses saying pretty much the same.

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." is contextually about the disciples, but it the principle carries over, and why not?

Acts 14:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

John 10:26 “You do not believe because you are not among my sheep.” (He doesn't say here, “You are not among my sheep because you do not believe.”) Like this also are John 8:47 and 18:37.

1 John 4:19 "We love him because he first loved us."

Romans 9 in its entirety demonstrates "unconditional election". Notice the principle stated in verses 11 and 12, concerning Jacob and Esau, “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call..."

Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..."

Enough for now.

Scripture says God is love. Jesus said "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Jesus did NOT say "God so loved only the elect/chosen that they will believe in his only begotten son and not perish."
I cannot believe a God, who is love, created the majority of mankind to live pointless lives, with no hope, and, depending on one's belief, either be annihilated or suffer for eternity in hell. That does not fit "God s love."

 

[Blade]

Forget it......I mean the Holy Spirit comes to all.. we all made a choice. That choice is given to all. How each of us personally think.. praise God but thats not what He said. And many are blind and to me the answer to that is ..if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains.

I've seen millions come to Christ in one day. HE IS SO AWESOME! He told Israel if anyone wants to join that.. someone thats from you.. but you are to treat them as if the were BORN OF YOU.. love them as you love your self. Just the OT alone I can see for GOD so loved this world. This said "investigating" can we please let others share and not shoot them down so fast? Thanks

 

[Steven Beck]

That's right. ALL who believe. And who will believe? Only those God has chosen, and changed believe. They can't help but believe, their hearts changed by God Almighty.

Funny how self-exalting theology puts God's choice secondary to man's choice. Really?

Funny how having a 50-50 chance of being chosen for hell fire would put God's choice last. You had better hope that is not God's choice for you. You may only think you believe.

 

[Strong in Him]

Funny how having a 50-50 chance of being chosen for hell fire would put God's choice last. You had better hope that is not God's choice for you. You may only think you believe.

You mean we can go through life never being sure? That we have to cross our fingers, hope, and maybe pray that God has chosen us and we don't end up in hell fire??
What a horrible idea.

Like I've asked before, why would a God who is love, create all people in his image and then say "well you lot will never ever know me; I think I'll destroy you"?
In fact, why would he punish anyone for rejecting, or not knowing, him, if it was his choice in the first place that we would always do that?

 

[Steven Beck]

You mean we can go through life never being sure? That we have to cross our fingers, hope, and maybe pray that God has chosen us and we don't end up in hell fire??
What a horrible idea.

Like I've asked before, why would a God who is love, create all people in his image and then say "well you lot will never ever know me; I think I'll destroy you"?
In fact, why would he punish anyone for rejecting, or not knowing, him, if it was his choice in the first place that we would always do that?

If you are a Calvinist yes. I am not luckily. I chose Jesus many years ago.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you are a Calvinist yes. I am not luckily.

Me neither.

 

[BCsenior]

Forget it......I mean the Holy Spirit comes to all..
we all made a choice. That choice is given to all.

Sorry, but I didn't make a choice!
I didn't even think about any choices!
I heard the gospel and immediately believed.

Later, Jesus suggests that we count the cost ...
and presents many warnings about being faithful/obedient,
which the church ignores/rejects!

Then, comes along Paul, Peter, James, John ...
who present many warnings about being faithful/obedient,
which the church ignores/rejects!

Next, God wouldn't send others (right?) ...
who present many warnings about being faithful/obedient,
which the church ignores/rejects!
Because ...
pastors and teachers are still around (see Ephesians 4:11),
but prophets and apostles are NOT allowed any more!

Gee, what fun it is to be part of the Laodicean church!

 

[BCsenior]

You mean we can go through life never being sure?
... why would he punish anyone for rejecting, or not knowing, him,
if it was his choice in the first place that we would always do that?

Believers indeed can have assurance of salvation.
Those who are faithful, i.e. obedient, can have this assurance.

God has His reasons for choosing some, and not others.
IMO, He sees who are the types who will reject Him, not know Him, etc.
E.G. These do NOT have contrite and humble spirits (see the OP).

 

[Strong in Him]

God has His reasons for choosing some, and not others.

That's my whole argument - I don't believe that God chooses that some of those whom he created in his image will know him and be with him forever, but not others.
Not everyone WILL accept and choose God, but that doesn't mean that God CHOSE, planned and willed that it would be that way.

IMO, He sees who are the types who will reject Him, not know Him, etc.

He knows who will reject him; that doesn't mean he stops trying to win them and get through to them.
"Love always hopes, always perseveres ...." 1 Corinthians 13:7.

 

[BCsenior]

That's my whole argument - I don't believe that God chooses that some of those
whom he created in his image will know him and be with him forever, but not others.
Not everyone WILL accept and choose God, but that doesn't mean that God CHOSE,
planned and willed that it would be that way.
He knows who will reject him; that doesn't mean he stops trying to win them
and get through to them. "Love always hopes, always perseveres ...." 1 Corinthians 13:7.

Yes, this is our way of thinking, there's no doubt about it.
But, is it God's way of thinking?
See post#186 in the "totally unable" thread.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, this is our way of thinking, there's no doubt about it.
But, is it God's way of thinking?

Yes, I believe so.
God made mankind in his image and declared his creation to be VERY good.
God knows that we have all sinned and all need a Saviour.
God sent Jesus to die for sinners, Romans 5:8.
There is much teaching in Scripture that those who do not repent, believe, come to Jesus and receive eternal life will be punished. Why would God punish people for rejecting him if he had decided beforehand that they would not belong to him and weren't chosen by him?

 

[BCsenior]

God made mankind in his image and declared his creation to be VERY good.

Everything was VERY good until Adam and Eve fell from grace!
In those exact words ...
God's chosen people (the Israelites) fell from grace.
And Jewish believers fell from grace (Galatians 5:4).

 

[Strong in Him]

Everything was VERY good until Adam and Eve fell from grace!
In those exact words ...
God's chosen people (the Israelites) fell from grace.
And Jewish believers fell from grace (Galatians 5:4).

Adam and Eve were not Israelites.