Introspection about Nagging and Criticism

LinkH said:

If you use specific language, people can picture the story in their head, and this story reads a whole lot better as being about a wife nagging her husband.

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Right. It keeps the bias alive and going strong (and excludes from one's mind other possible scenarios). Exactly my issue with it (one of them).

LinkH said:

If it were all about 'my spouse', first of all, we'd wonder if the author was gay, and that would be a distraction.

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No..."we" wouldn't get confused or distracted over that (feel free to admit to that and leaving others out). Besides....she wouldn't even really have to avoid using the word "husband" (I don't have an issue with that when she was speaking about herself). She honestly could have stopped at her personal reflection (and even used the summarized ending I quoted earlier--and all would be good, IMO) avoiding the words "nagging" and "harping"

LinkH said:

Mkgal1, and why should she do that? Why should she take the teeth out of her article to support some unreasonable theory that all stereotyping is evil? We all stereotype and categorize. We wouldn't make much sense of the world if we didn't.

The Bible also gives a difference set of commands for husbands and wives. It's okay to address problems a lot of wives face and problems a lot of husbands face.

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Thank you for making my point better than I could have.

I know I have said that I am very lucky to not have a wife like the one in the article.

However, we are dealing with some family issues as my mother-in-law treats my father-in-law likes this. He is the quiet, non-confrontational type. He is becoming very depressed and we are becoming ever so concerned about him and not sure what to do. My wife's mother does not see what she is doing to him and when we have tried to point out what she is doing to him, she does not see it. She is 75 and he is 83. He has been trying to pawn her off on friends and family just so he can have some alone time, but we also wonder how healthy this can be too. The up side, at least she is not there yelling at him about every little thing.

beaverpond said:

He has been trying to pawn her off on friends and family just so he can have some alone time, but we also wonder how healthy this can be too. The up side, at least she is not there yelling at him about every little thing.

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Its the only thing he can do I guess. I'm sure that alone time is treasured. If anyone is in that type of circumstance - they would do the same.

LinkH said:

That wheel assumes that there are certain behavior patterns that an abusive person follows. It relies very heavily on stereotyping.

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I'm not sure that is accurate description. The wheel doesn't assume anything. It shows behaviors that are common among abusive personalities. That could be anyone, and they use it for individuals to recognize the pattern of the habitual behavior. It lists traits that can be seen from an abusive personality, but doesn't assume they have all the ones listed. Yet, if you recognize some of the habitual behavior in your own relationship - which many sadly don't - it helps the person recognize it. The next steps after that? Its custom.

It's just like any other list you see. For example, if you have diabetes? They list symptoms, and some you may have habitually in your life - other's not so much. It helps you recognize that its time to do something - if you feel led of course. As we know some people refuse to do anything pretty much - my FIL was like that.

The wheel is basically a list that was placed in a circle. Its a list like any other list.

When I read the article my first thought isn't towards introspection about nagging and criticism personally. Those two items are completely different to me compared to abusive behaviors.

lol I've been nagging my 21yr old for the last couple of days about cleaning the bathrooms! I was also been criticizing how she did it the last time, because she knows she didn't do it correctly. She called what she did as 'spot cleaning'. Okay then. I didn't ask her to SPOT CLEAN - I asked her to clean the bathrooms. She has been attempting every excuse in the book to try to get away from doing it. You have to stay on her due to her personality. My son? Completely different approach with him. All you have to do is give the 'look' - he sighs and does it.

The couple of examples that I read about this women at the beginning of the article? She was being a huge jerkface, belittling, etc. Her arrogance went beyond nagging and criticism.

LinkH said:

The wheel describes a set of predicted characteristics for a certain type of person. That's a stereotype. The only difference is that the word 'stereotype' has a negative connotation.

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No....the abuse wheel is not a stereotype----it's a characterization. A stereotype includes a list of presumed traits that are assigned to a group of people that are *only* included in this group based on external/superficial things that are known--just a snapshot of who they are (clothing type; race; gender; neighborhood they're from.....etc). For instance....a person dresses like a skater---so it's presumed they are irresponsible and don't have a job. Like Hannah wrote.....the list of abusive traits is a lot like a diagnosis (if the traits don't "fit" .....then the person isn't in the category. It's not based on assumption like stereotype/prejudice/bias are).

It's a lot like trying to figure out if a person *may* be an alcoholic or just drinks too much--you have a list of characteristics to use as a guideline. IOW.....one is working from the outside and slapping a label on a person (stereotype/bias/prejudice).....and the other is working from the inside....getting to know details about a person over time and experience.....and characterizing a person (carefully).

Link said:

How is there anything immoral about this?

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Who posted anything about immorality?

LinkH said:

I really don't understand your objection at all then. No one is saying that women, in general, act like the woman did as described in her confession in the OP. What is the stereotype exactly? Some women do that. And if we list traits of those who act like that, let's call it a 'characterization.'

The reason the article is popular is because people can relate to it. Some readers have acted like that. Others have relatives or acquaintances where they see the pattern.

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Feel free to read my previous posts. I'm not suggesting that my complaint is that the article paints the picture that all women fall into this category (although she did write that it's "most women")---it's more that she made this into a female-specific issue (which is the bias I'm speaking about) and said she doesn't see this as a "male characteristic".

LinkH said:

The wheel describes a set of predicted characteristics for a certain type of person. That's a stereotype. The only difference is that the word 'stereotype' has a negative connotation.

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The wheel is a tool to help people recognize habitual behavior that they have experienced. All the 'characteristics' need not apply to each and every relationship with this person - so I'm not sure this is accurate either. Its basically a list - just like any other list. Its symptoms in other words. Just like you read a list for symptoms for diabetes. Some maybe present, and others may not.

I'm also not clear as to why you couldn't pick another word if you knew it had a negative connotation. there are many others you could have used, and if you knew it may bring out negativity...lol why use it then? If I could sarcastically use the wheel for a moment - is that button pushing?

Stereotypes may or may not accurately reflect reality of the circumstances, and so that is why I feel its not an accurate word. I mean we don't tell individuals to read a list of symptoms for diabetes, and tell them - if they see some that apply - that they fit the stereotype.

HannahT said:

The wheel is a tool to help people recognize habitual behavior that they have experienced

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Right. The key word is "habitual", too. A stereotype is a judgement made based on a snapshot of a person's life (IOW....I see how a person is dressed right now & not knowing anything else about them I assume characteristics about them that aren't even related to dress---like education level).

LinkH said:

But I still don't see your objection to stereotyping, since there are some women who do this habitually. The abuse wheels often use 'she' for the abuse. Do you complain about that stereotype?

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Actually.....I do complain about an abuse wheel that is only one-sided (using "he" for the abuser and "she" as the victim --and for the same reason: it is a strict narrative that doesn't allow for other scenarios or possibilities).

Another thing is: I don't see this article as describing abuse. An abuser doesn't have the self-awareness this author has. An abuser doesn't have "aha moments" about their mistreatment of others. Their motive in relationships isn't about genuine love---it's a fear-based motive that strives for power (so this author doesn't fit into that category).

As far as you not seeing my objection....I don't know how else to express myself any more thoroughly. It's the narrow-minded way of looking at this---the typical easy formula to relationships that I think is the main issue (and the preachy and condescending middle part). Yes....some women *do* habitually do this---but so do some men (and some women and men can belittle and criticize with other methods as well---ways that weren't mentioned or allowed to be factored in b/c of her use of words).

Like I posted earlier......had she stopped at her personal revelation (and included her appreciation for how her husband handles things when there's a mistake made) and summarized in a way that would apply to everyone (as I wrote earlier, "It takes two to make a partnership. No one is always right and no one is always wrong. And you're not always going to see eye-to-eye on every little thing. It doesn't make you smarter, or superior, or more right to point out every little thing that's not to your liking") I'd have zero complaints. Had the article been written trying to support that point---it would probably be one that I'd refer to often, but this seemed to be coming from a different angle. She seems to have taken her criticism of her husband and redirected it towards "most women" (she should absorb her own words, "it doesn't make you smarter or superior or more right....."). Instead of trying to actually help with relationships-- it seemed to be more about the author patting herself on the back while shaming other women (to get the appreciation from men, maybe?). That self-deprecation (but making oneself superior--'arrived'--'seeing the light') among women is something I see in a lot of conservative Christian literature.....and it's just not cute to me.

Also......as conservative Christian churches are spreading ideas that a wife *never* ought to "correct" or "complain" to her man (as he 'runs on your praise' like in this article: http://www.donotlink.com/faof ).....that's not going to help the gender divide (and people are going to be even more hypersensitive to *any* disagreement from a woman and it will be perceived as "nagging" and "harping" right out of the gate).

IMO (and according to results)....nothing "works" better in a marriage than two people striving to be their best---while simultaneously having mutual love and respect for each other.

well now there is a stereotype if I ever saw one...Any of the conservative churches I have belonged to or attended except for one have always said that while wives must submit to their husbands and husbands must love their wives, we also acknowledge that we must have mutual respect and love for each other and work together as a team.

When my wife and I got married we always vowed that we would never go to bed angry with each other even if it meant staying up all night, we have only done that a few times over the last 20+ years. I have to wonder if more couples did this if the divorce rate would be lower....one only knows.