Interesting video debate Messianic vs Orthodox Jew

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So, in other words, you did not take the time to examine the "53" beyond the usual talking points. And you will offer no explanation for Jesus dying young and childless, even though, the Prophet says the opposite.

Well there is that DaVinci code stuff

 

[Open Heart]

I'm Messianic, and I think "fulfilled the laws" simply means that Jesus kept them all. Nothing more than that.

 

[danny ski]

Messianic Position - You can't keep all the Laws, yet the Laws are fulfilled in Jesus/Yeshua Christ.

Orthodox Jew Position - You must keep the Laws, yet it is not possible to keep all the Laws.


Matthew 9:16-17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

16 `And no one doth put a patch of undressed cloth on an old garment, for its filling up doth take from the garment, and a worse rent is made.

17 `Nor do they put new wine into old skins, and if not -- the skins burst, and the wine doth run out, and the skins are destroyed, but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together.'

Orthodox "Jew" position is the same as the Torah's. And the Torah teaches explicitly that it CAN be "kept". You just don't bother reading it carefully enough.

 

[visionary]

I'm Messianic, and I think "fulfilled the laws" simply means that Jesus kept them all. Nothing more than that.

Does "fulfilling" finish the need to obey them? In this question, the depth of understanding what it means to fulfill.

 

[Open Heart]

Does "fulfilling" finish the need to obey them? In this question, the depth of understanding what it means to fulfill.

I can't answer this question without violating the SOP.

 

[Open Heart]

We should all be very careful to not say, "this is the Messianic position." Other than a love for Yeshua and the Torah, Messianics agree on practically nothing.

 

[Elihoenai]

Orthodox "Jew" position is the same as the Torah's. And the Torah teaches explicitly that it CAN be "kept". You just don't bother reading it carefully enough.

Did you bother to watch the video? This thread is about the video debate between a Messianic and Orthodox Jew.

The following are their positions:

Messianic - You can't keep all the Laws, yet the Laws are fulfilled in Jesus/Yeshua Christ.

Orthodox Jew - You must keep the Laws, yet it is not possible to keep all the Laws.

Video time between 1:36:41-1:42:11

Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? - Rabbi Daniel Freitag and Dr. Michael Brown

 

[danny ski]

Did you bother to watch the video? This thread is about the video debate between a Messianic and Orthodox Jew.

The following are their positions:

Messianic - You can't keep all the Laws, yet the Laws are fulfilled in Jesus/Yeshua Christ.

Orthodox Jew - You must keep the Laws, yet it is not possible to keep all the Laws.

Video time between 1:36:41-1:42:11

Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? - Rabbi Daniel Freitag and Dr. Michael Brown

I don't watch videos, especially with Dr. Brown. I read the Torah. The argument that involves "ALL" the laws is a straw man attempt.

 

[Elihoenai]

I don't watch videos, especially with Dr. Brown. I read the Torah. The argument that involves "ALL" the laws is a straw man attempt.

We rest out case! It is a Mystery that Jesus/Yeshua is the only Truly Ultra-Orthodox Jew!


Leviticus 19:37 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

37 and ye have observed all my statutes, and all my judgments, and have done them; I [am] Jehovah.'



Matthew 5:17-18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;

18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

 

[Steve Petersen]

In regard to the 'born again' argument, I thought this was interesting:

Subject: Beyond-Pshat - Parshas Haazinu (2) - Are We the Role Model to the
From: "Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky" <kalatsky@torah.org>
Date: Fri, September 13, 2002 8:53 am

____________
2. What is the Ultimate Rehabilitative Process of Teshuvah?
The Torah states in the beginning of Sefer Bereishis, "Bereishis bara
Elokeem es ha'shamaiyim v'es ha'aretz: v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu v'vohu
v'choshech al panei tahom v'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim
- In the beginning of G-d's creating the heavens and the earth - when
the earth was empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and
the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters." The
Midrash explains that each of the words in this opening verse of the
Torah alludes to events that will take place in the future. Meaning,
when G-d created existence, He preordained that certain events will
happen.
The Midrash explains that "v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu - earth was empty,"
refers to the Babylonian exile. "Choshech - darkness," refers to the
Greek exile; as the Talmud tells us, "they blackened our eyes with
their decrees." "Al panei tahom- surface of the deep" alludes to the
Roman exile, which is seemingly as endless as the "deep" source of
water. (We are still experiencing the Roman exile after more than 2,000
years.) "V'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim - the Divine
Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters" is ascribed to the
spirit of Moshiach who will come only in the merit of teshuvah
(repentance) which is compared to water (maiyim). As it is stated in
Eicha, "Your heart should gush forth water when you stand before
Hashem." Rambam states in Hilchos Teshuvah (The Laws of Teshuvah) that
the confession that one makes during teshuvah must be in the presence
of Hashem. The question is what relevance does teshuvah have to water?
Why is the statement "hovered upon the surface of the waters" an
allusion to teshuvah?
Rambam states that if one attempts to do teshuvah but does not totally
sever himself from his sinful past, then his teshuvah process is
equivalent to immersing in a mikva (ritual pool) for the sake of
purification, while still holding on to a rodent, which is the source
of his spiritual contamination. Rambam is comparing the teshuvah
process to the mikva itself. However, the verse from Eicha, which is
cited by the Midrash, is indicating that the water itself is not the
teshuvah but rather a consequence of the teshuvah. As it says, "your
heart will gush forth water."
If one is spiritually contaminated, he must immerse himself completely
in a mikvah in order to achieve spiritual purity. The Halacha (law)
dictates that if there is as much as one hair of his body that is not
under water, he is not purified. The desired result is only achieved
when one totally dunks himself. How do we understand the purification
process of the mikva? The Maharal of Prague (in his work on Chanukah)
explains that humanity exists on dry land and not under water;
therefore, the latter represents non-existence. When a person immerses
himself in a body of water, in essence, he enters into a state of
non-being. When he emerges, he enters a state of existence and is
considered a "bria chadasha - a new being". As such, whatever
contamination he had prior to the immersion, no longer applies to him.
Dovid HaMelech says in Tehillim (Psalms), "A broken and shattered heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace." Rabbeinu Yona explains in his work
Shaarei Teshuvah - The Gates of Repentance that the teshuvah process
only has meaning because of the Attribute of Mercy (Midas HaRachamim).
However, within the context of Midas HaDin (The attribute of Justice)
there is no place for teshuvah. Dovid revealed to us that if the person
is truly broken and shattered, as a result of the teshuvah process,
even Elokeem (the Attribute of Justice) will not disgrace (reject) this
person's teshuvah.
The Torah tells us that an earthenware vessel (after becoming
contaminated) cannot be purified in a mikva. In order for it to become
uncontaminated, it must be broken or shattered so it loses its function
as a vessel. If it is reassembled, it is considered a new creation that
does not have relevance to the original vessel - and therefore it is
pure. The same holds true for a person. If he is broken and remorseful
because of his sins and does teshuvah, he is forgiven because when he
is broken he is the equivalent of the non-existent person. Therefore,
after the process of teshuvah, the individual is a new person. Thus,
because the sinner no longer exists, even the Attribute of Justice
cannot prosecute the penitent.
We say in the tefillah of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that we are
likened to a broken shard - "earthenware vessel". We identify with the
purification process of the earthenware vessel because - "A broken heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace."
We can now understand why the Midrash compares the process of teshuvah
with water. Just as when one immerses into the water, entering into a
non-existent state and he emerges pure, so too does one need to be
broken and remorseful to the point that one's heart gushes forth water
(tears) to indicate that he is totally broken. Thus, the "water"
referred to in the Torah "hovered upon the surface of the waters" is
synonymous with the broken state of man when he is in a process of
teshuvah.
______________
Beyond-Pshat, Copyright © 2002 by Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky and Torah.org.
Join the Jewish Learning Revolution! Torah.org: The Judaism Site brings
this and a host of other classes to you every week. Visit
http://torah.org or email learn@torah.org to get your own free copy of
this mailing.
Project Genesis - Torah.org is a recognized charity and depends upon
your support. Please help us by visiting Support • Torah.org for
information on class dedications, memorials, annual giving and more.
Need to change or stop your subscription? Please visit our subscription
center, Support • Torah.org -- see the links on that page.
Permission is granted to redistribute, but please give proper
attribution and copyright to the author and Torah.org. Both the author
and Torah.org reserve certain rights. Email copyrights@torah.org for
full information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torah.org: The Judaism Site
Home • Torah.org Project Genesis, Inc.
learn@torah.org 122 Slade Avenue, Suite 203
(410) 602-1350 Baltimore, MD 21208
FAX: (410) 510-1053

 

[Steve Petersen]

'Born again' may have been a term associated with conversion to Judaism. A Gentile goes into the immersion pool, a type of the womb, and is said to be 'reborn' a Jew. Also, Jewish descent is determined via the mother.

For more detail, see post 6 here.

Imagine Nicodemus' confusion when he heard what he thought Jesus was saying: that he (Nicodemus) needed to convert to Judaism!

Nicodemus response: 'I was born Jewish. Why do I need to be 'born again (convert to Judaism)?' You can't be any more Jewish than I am. My mother was Jewish!'

 

[visionary]

'Born again' may have been a term associated with conversion to Judaism. A Gentile goes into the immersion pool, a type of the womb, and is said to be 'reborn' a Jew. Also, Jewish descent is determined via the mother.

For more detail, see post 6 here.

Imagine Nicodemus' confusion when he heard what he thought Jesus was saying: that he (Nicodemus) needed to convert to Judaism!

Nicodemus response: 'I was born Jewish. Why do I need to be 'born again (convert to Judaism)?' You can't be any more Jewish than I am. My mother was Jewish!'

yep.. Yeshua's version of "born again" took on a whole new meaning. Although I have yet to see any Jewish historical documents talk about the "born again" as you have presented it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I have yet to see any Jewish historical documents talk about the "born again" as you have presented it.

Subject: Beyond-Pshat - Parshas Haazinu (2) - Are We the Role Model to the
From: "Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky" <kalatsky@torah.org>
Date: Fri, September 13, 2002 8:53 am

____________
2. What is the Ultimate Rehabilitative Process of Teshuvah?
The Torah states in the beginning of Sefer Bereishis, "Bereishis bara
Elokeem es ha'shamaiyim v'es ha'aretz: v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu v'vohu
v'choshech al panei tahom v'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim
- In the beginning of G-d's creating the heavens and the earth - when
the earth was empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and
the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters." The
Midrash explains that each of the words in this opening verse of the
Torah alludes to events that will take place in the future. Meaning,
when G-d created existence, He preordained that certain events will
happen.
The Midrash explains that "v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu - earth was empty,"
refers to the Babylonian exile. "Choshech - darkness," refers to the
Greek exile; as the Talmud tells us, "they blackened our eyes with
their decrees." "Al panei tahom- surface of the deep" alludes to the
Roman exile, which is seemingly as endless as the "deep" source of
water. (We are still experiencing the Roman exile after more than 2,000
years.) "V'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim - the Divine
Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters" is ascribed to the
spirit of Moshiach who will come only in the merit of teshuvah
(repentance) which is compared to water (maiyim). As it is stated in
Eicha, "Your heart should gush forth water when you stand before
Hashem." Rambam states in Hilchos Teshuvah (The Laws of Teshuvah) that
the confession that one makes during teshuvah must be in the presence
of Hashem. The question is what relevance does teshuvah have to water?
Why is the statement "hovered upon the surface of the waters" an
allusion to teshuvah?
Rambam states that if one attempts to do teshuvah but does not totally
sever himself from his sinful past, then his teshuvah process is
equivalent to immersing in a mikva (ritual pool) for the sake of
purification, while still holding on to a rodent, which is the source
of his spiritual contamination. Rambam is comparing the teshuvah
process to the mikva itself. However, the verse from Eicha, which is
cited by the Midrash, is indicating that the water itself is not the
teshuvah but rather a consequence of the teshuvah. As it says, "your
heart will gush forth water."
If one is spiritually contaminated, he must immerse himself completely
in a mikvah in order to achieve spiritual purity. The Halacha (law)
dictates that if there is as much as one hair of his body that is not
under water, he is not purified. The desired result is only achieved
when one totally dunks himself. How do we understand the purification
process of the mikva? The Maharal of Prague (in his work on Chanukah)
explains that humanity exists on dry land and not under water;
therefore, the latter represents non-existence. When a person immerses
himself in a body of water, in essence, he enters into a state of
non-being. When he emerges, he enters a state of existence and is
considered a "bria chadasha - a new being". As such, whatever
contamination he had prior to the immersion, no longer applies to him.
Dovid HaMelech says in Tehillim (Psalms), "A broken and shattered heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace." Rabbeinu Yona explains in his work
Shaarei Teshuvah - The Gates of Repentance that the teshuvah process
only has meaning because of the Attribute of Mercy (Midas HaRachamim).
However, within the context of Midas HaDin (The attribute of Justice)
there is no place for teshuvah. Dovid revealed to us that if the person
is truly broken and shattered, as a result of the teshuvah process,
even Elokeem (the Attribute of Justice) will not disgrace (reject) this
person's teshuvah.
The Torah tells us that an earthenware vessel (after becoming
contaminated) cannot be purified in a mikva. In order for it to become
uncontaminated, it must be broken or shattered so it loses its function
as a vessel. If it is reassembled, it is considered a new creation that
does not have relevance to the original vessel - and therefore it is
pure. The same holds true for a person. If he is broken and remorseful
because of his sins and does teshuvah, he is forgiven because when he
is broken he is the equivalent of the non-existent person. Therefore,
after the process of teshuvah, the individual is a new person. Thus,
because the sinner no longer exists, even the Attribute of Justice
cannot prosecute the penitent.
We say in the tefillah of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that we are
likened to a broken shard - "earthenware vessel". We identify with the
purification process of the earthenware vessel because - "A broken heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace."
We can now understand why the Midrash compares the process of teshuvah
with water. Just as when one immerses into the water, entering into a
non-existent state and he emerges pure, so too does one need to be
broken and remorseful to the point that one's heart gushes forth water
(tears) to indicate that he is totally broken. Thus, the "water"
referred to in the Torah "hovered upon the surface of the waters" is
synonymous with the broken state of man when he is in a process of
teshuvah.
______________
Beyond-Pshat, Copyright © 2002 by Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky and Torah.org.
Join the Jewish Learning Revolution! Torah.org: The Judaism Site brings
this and a host of other classes to you every week. Visit
http://torah.org or email learn@torah.org to get your own free copy of
this mailing.
Project Genesis - Torah.org is a recognized charity and depends upon
your support. Please help us by visiting Support • Torah.org for
information on class dedications, memorials, annual giving and more.
Need to change or stop your subscription? Please visit our subscription
center, Support • Torah.org -- see the links on that page.
Permission is granted to redistribute, but please give proper
attribution and copyright to the author and Torah.org. Both the author
and Torah.org reserve certain rights. Email copyrights@torah.org for
full information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torah.org: The Judaism Site
Home • Torah.org Project Genesis, Inc.
learn@torah.org 122 Slade Avenue, Suite 203
(410) 602-1350 Baltimore, MD 21208
FAX: (410) 510-1053

 

[Open Heart]

yep.. Yeshua's version of "born again" took on a whole new meaning. Although I have yet to see any Jewish historical documents talk about the "born again" as you have presented it.

"after giyyur, as having been reborn as a Jew and is irrevocably Jewish" Transforming Identity

 

[visionary]

Subject: Beyond-Pshat - Parshas Haazinu (2) - Are We the Role Model to the
From: "Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky" <kalatsky@torah.org>
Date: Fri, September 13, 2002 8:53 am

____________
2. What is the Ultimate Rehabilitative Process of Teshuvah?
The Torah states in the beginning of Sefer Bereishis, "Bereishis bara
Elokeem es ha'shamaiyim v'es ha'aretz: v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu v'vohu
v'choshech al panei tahom v'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim
- In the beginning of G-d's creating the heavens and the earth - when
the earth was empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and
the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters." The
Midrash explains that each of the words in this opening verse of the
Torah alludes to events that will take place in the future. Meaning,
when G-d created existence, He preordained that certain events will
happen.
The Midrash explains that "v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu - earth was empty,"
refers to the Babylonian exile. "Choshech - darkness," refers to the
Greek exile; as the Talmud tells us, "they blackened our eyes with
their decrees." "Al panei tahom- surface of the deep" alludes to the
Roman exile, which is seemingly as endless as the "deep" source of
water. (We are still experiencing the Roman exile after more than 2,000
years.) "V'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim - the Divine
Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters" is ascribed to the
spirit of Moshiach who will come only in the merit of teshuvah
(repentance) which is compared to water (maiyim). As it is stated in
Eicha, "Your heart should gush forth water when you stand before
Hashem." Rambam states in Hilchos Teshuvah (The Laws of Teshuvah) that
the confession that one makes during teshuvah must be in the presence
of Hashem. The question is what relevance does teshuvah have to water?
Why is the statement "hovered upon the surface of the waters" an
allusion to teshuvah?
Rambam states that if one attempts to do teshuvah but does not totally
sever himself from his sinful past, then his teshuvah process is
equivalent to immersing in a mikva (ritual pool) for the sake of
purification, while still holding on to a rodent, which is the source
of his spiritual contamination. Rambam is comparing the teshuvah
process to the mikva itself. However, the verse from Eicha, which is
cited by the Midrash, is indicating that the water itself is not the
teshuvah but rather a consequence of the teshuvah. As it says, "your
heart will gush forth water."
If one is spiritually contaminated, he must immerse himself completely
in a mikvah in order to achieve spiritual purity. The Halacha (law)
dictates that if there is as much as one hair of his body that is not
under water, he is not purified. The desired result is only achieved
when one totally dunks himself. How do we understand the purification
process of the mikva? The Maharal of Prague (in his work on Chanukah)
explains that humanity exists on dry land and not under water;
therefore, the latter represents non-existence. When a person immerses
himself in a body of water, in essence, he enters into a state of
non-being. When he emerges, he enters a state of existence and is
considered a "bria chadasha - a new being". As such, whatever
contamination he had prior to the immersion, no longer applies to him.
Dovid HaMelech says in Tehillim (Psalms), "A broken and shattered heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace." Rabbeinu Yona explains in his work
Shaarei Teshuvah - The Gates of Repentance that the teshuvah process
only has meaning because of the Attribute of Mercy (Midas HaRachamim).
However, within the context of Midas HaDin (The attribute of Justice)
there is no place for teshuvah. Dovid revealed to us that if the person
is truly broken and shattered, as a result of the teshuvah process,
even Elokeem (the Attribute of Justice) will not disgrace (reject) this
person's teshuvah.
The Torah tells us that an earthenware vessel (after becoming
contaminated) cannot be purified in a mikva. In order for it to become
uncontaminated, it must be broken or shattered so it loses its function
as a vessel. If it is reassembled, it is considered a new creation that
does not have relevance to the original vessel - and therefore it is
pure. The same holds true for a person. If he is broken and remorseful
because of his sins and does teshuvah, he is forgiven because when he
is broken he is the equivalent of the non-existent person. Therefore,
after the process of teshuvah, the individual is a new person. Thus,
because the sinner no longer exists, even the Attribute of Justice
cannot prosecute the penitent.
We say in the tefillah of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that we are
likened to a broken shard - "earthenware vessel". We identify with the
purification process of the earthenware vessel because - "A broken heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace."
We can now understand why the Midrash compares the process of teshuvah
with water. Just as when one immerses into the water, entering into a
non-existent state and he emerges pure, so too does one need to be
broken and remorseful to the point that one's heart gushes forth water
(tears) to indicate that he is totally broken. Thus, the "water"
referred to in the Torah "hovered upon the surface of the waters" is
synonymous with the broken state of man when he is in a process of
teshuvah.

Subject: Beyond-Pshat - Parshas Haazinu (2) - Are We the Role Model to the
From: "Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky" <kalatsky@torah.org>
Date: Fri, September 13, 2002 8:53 am

____________
2. What is the Ultimate Rehabilitative Process of Teshuvah?
The Torah states in the beginning of Sefer Bereishis, "Bereishis bara
Elokeem es ha'shamaiyim v'es ha'aretz: v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu v'vohu
v'choshech al panei tahom v'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim
- In the beginning of G-d's creating the heavens and the earth - when
the earth was empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and
the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters." The
Midrash explains that each of the words in this opening verse of the
Torah alludes to events that will take place in the future. Meaning,
when G-d created existence, He preordained that certain events will
happen.
The Midrash explains that "v'ha'aretz hoysa tohu - earth was empty,"
refers to the Babylonian exile. "Choshech - darkness," refers to the
Greek exile; as the Talmud tells us, "they blackened our eyes with
their decrees." "Al panei tahom- surface of the deep" alludes to the
Roman exile, which is seemingly as endless as the "deep" source of
water. (We are still experiencing the Roman exile after more than 2,000
years.) "V'ruach Elokeem merachefes al panei ha'maiyim - the Divine
Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters" is ascribed to the
spirit of Moshiach who will come only in the merit of teshuvah
(repentance) which is compared to water (maiyim). As it is stated in
Eicha, "Your heart should gush forth water when you stand before
Hashem." Rambam states in Hilchos Teshuvah (The Laws of Teshuvah) that
the confession that one makes during teshuvah must be in the presence
of Hashem. The question is what relevance does teshuvah have to water?
Why is the statement "hovered upon the surface of the waters" an
allusion to teshuvah?
Rambam states that if one attempts to do teshuvah but does not totally
sever himself from his sinful past, then his teshuvah process is
equivalent to immersing in a mikva (ritual pool) for the sake of
purification, while still holding on to a rodent, which is the source
of his spiritual contamination. Rambam is comparing the teshuvah
process to the mikva itself. However, the verse from Eicha, which is
cited by the Midrash, is indicating that the water itself is not the
teshuvah but rather a consequence of the teshuvah. As it says, "your
heart will gush forth water."
If one is spiritually contaminated, he must immerse himself completely
in a mikvah in order to achieve spiritual purity. The Halacha (law)
dictates that if there is as much as one hair of his body that is not
under water, he is not purified. The desired result is only achieved
when one totally dunks himself. How do we understand the purification
process of the mikva? The Maharal of Prague (in his work on Chanukah)
explains that humanity exists on dry land and not under water;
therefore, the latter represents non-existence. When a person immerses
himself in a body of water, in essence, he enters into a state of
non-being. When he emerges, he enters a state of existence and is
considered a "bria chadasha - a new being". As such, whatever
contamination he had prior to the immersion, no longer applies to him.
Dovid HaMelech says in Tehillim (Psalms), "A broken and shattered heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace." Rabbeinu Yona explains in his work
Shaarei Teshuvah - The Gates of Repentance that the teshuvah process
only has meaning because of the Attribute of Mercy (Midas HaRachamim).
However, within the context of Midas HaDin (The attribute of Justice)
there is no place for teshuvah. Dovid revealed to us that if the person
is truly broken and shattered, as a result of the teshuvah process,
even Elokeem (the Attribute of Justice) will not disgrace (reject) this
person's teshuvah.
The Torah tells us that an earthenware vessel (after becoming
contaminated) cannot be purified in a mikva. In order for it to become
uncontaminated, it must be broken or shattered so it loses its function
as a vessel. If it is reassembled, it is considered a new creation that
does not have relevance to the original vessel - and therefore it is
pure. The same holds true for a person. If he is broken and remorseful
because of his sins and does teshuvah, he is forgiven because when he
is broken he is the equivalent of the non-existent person. Therefore,
after the process of teshuvah, the individual is a new person. Thus,
because the sinner no longer exists, even the Attribute of Justice
cannot prosecute the penitent.
We say in the tefillah of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that we are
likened to a broken shard - "earthenware vessel". We identify with the
purification process of the earthenware vessel because - "A broken heart
Elokeem (G-d) will not disgrace."
We can now understand why the Midrash compares the process of teshuvah
with water. Just as when one immerses into the water, entering into a
non-existent state and he emerges pure, so too does one need to be
broken and remorseful to the point that one's heart gushes forth water
(tears) to indicate that he is totally broken. Thus, the "water"
referred to in the Torah "hovered upon the surface of the waters" is
synonymous with the broken state of man when he is in a process of
teshuvah.
______________
Beyond-Pshat, Copyright © 2002 by Rabbi Yosef Kalatsky and Torah.org.
Join the Jewish Learning Revolution! Torah.org: The Judaism Site brings
this and a host of other classes to you every week. Visit
http://torah.org or email learn@torah.org to get your own free copy of
this mailing.
Project Genesis - Torah.org is a recognized charity and depends upon
your support. Please help us by visiting Support • Torah.org for
information on class dedications, memorials, annual giving and more.
Need to change or stop your subscription? Please visit our subscription
center, Support • Torah.org -- see the links on that page.
Permission is granted to redistribute, but please give proper
attribution and copyright to the author and Torah.org. Both the author
and Torah.org reserve certain rights. Email copyrights@torah.org for
full information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Torah.org: The Judaism Site
Home • Torah.org Project Genesis, Inc.
learn@torah.org 122 Slade Avenue, Suite 203
(410) 602-1350 Baltimore, MD 21208
FAX: (410) 510-1053

While that was an interesting article, which I thank you for bringing it to this thread, it is not historically even close to the time of Yeshua's walk on earth. What I was looking for was something that gave any indication that Nicodemus has some concepts, right or wrong, on what the term "born again" could mean.

 

[visionary]

"after giyyur, as having been reborn as a Jew and is irrevocably Jewish" Transforming Identity

If this is what Nicodemus was working off of, then as a Jew, it would make no sense.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Interesting debate

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

While that was an interesting article, which I thank you for bringing it to this thread, it is not historically even close to the time of Yeshua's walk on earth. What I was looking for was something that gave any indication that Nicodemus has some concepts, right or wrong, on what the term "born again" could mean.

Yeshua tells Nakdimon what everyone who is born again is like. I could explain it here but I am sure everyone would get mad It isn't the protestant version and it isn't baptism.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua tells Nakdimon what everyone who is born again is like. I could explain it here but I am sure everyone would get mad It isn't the protestant version and it isn't baptism.

And now you have me curious

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And now you have me curious

Read the ENTIRE account very slowly and carefully. Then ask yourself if anyone fits...