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Interesting video debate Messianic vs Orthodox Jew

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Yeshua HaDerekh, Jun 8, 2017.

  1. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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  2. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    I loved the debate. Thank you for sharing. I am going to show my wife this video and my close Christian friend.


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  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Rabbi Freitag (Who is against Jesus being the Messiah) mentioned how we can keep the commandments and we do not need God or some Messiah to help us to keep these commandments. The problem in his understanding (and even certain Christian's understanding) is that the words "circumscion of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament (Important Note: Both man and God can circumcise the heart (According to Scripture)).

    Quick Review:

    Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.

    (Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

    Deuteronomy 10:16

    "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

    Deuteronomy 30:6

    "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

    Jeremiah 4:4

    "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

    Ezekiel 44:9

    "Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

    Leviticus 26:41

    "And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

    Jeremiah 9:26

    "Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

    Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

    Ezekiel 11:19

    "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

    Ezekiel 18:31

    "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

    Ezekiel 36:26

    "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

    Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

    Acts 7:51

    "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

    Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

    Philippians 3:3

    "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

    Romans 2:28-29

    28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

    Colossians 2:11

    "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"


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  4. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):



    I mention this because Jesus implies in his speech to Nicodemus that he should have known about being born again. This was not a prophecy that Nicodemus should have known about. This was an actual reality for the Old Testament saint that Nicodemus should have been aware of. For Ezekiel 36:26-27 can be read from the perspective of the Israelite duing the time of which he lived.


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  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Also, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27:18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'"

    So we see in Numbers 14, that Caleb has a different spirit, and we see in Numbers 27, that Joshua has the Spirit.

    Also, David says to God in Psalms 51 not to take His Holy Spirit from Him. Saul once had the Spirit God and then the Lord departed from Him and he committed suicide. So people have been spiritually regenerated (i.e. born again or circumcised in heart) both the Old Testament and the New Testament. All men are justified by faith thru out time in the Messaih, too. God doesn't change.


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  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Rabbi Freitag also mentioned how the OT Scriptures do not mention anything about a man or Savior taking away our sins or atoning for our sins. He is wrong.

    Isaiah 53 says,

    3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:3-12).



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  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam Judaic Christian

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    My impression is that Jews blame all Christians for what the Catholics did.
     
  8. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    He is not wrong just as you are not wrong. He's reading Isaiah as Jews read it and you're reading it as a Christian.
     
  9. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    I disagree. Nakdimon SHOULD have known what it was because He was a Pharisee and they believed in the resurrection of the dead. Read the entire account because Yeshua DEFINES what one that is born again is like...
     
  10. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Dear Danny:

    Jesus (Who is the spotless Lamb and who is sinless) took on our sins in the cup witin the Garden Gethsemane. He later was beaten and whipped. This then plays into what Isaiah says.

    "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes (whip marks) we are healed." (Isaiah 53:5).​

    Christ was then crucified and the Father laid all Judgment of sin upon Him and He died for all of mankind's sins so as to offer man the free gift of salvation. Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights; And then Christ conquered sin and death with His resurrection. Jesus then ascended to the Father (After telling Mary not to touch Him), and entered the Holy Temple up in Heaven by his blood so as to be our mediator and or Heavenly High Priest between God the Father and man.


    Side Note:

    A parallel of Jesus taking on our sin in the Garden can be seen in the story of Joseph. Judah took on Benjamin's guilt of the cup within his bag and was willing to go to prison (i.e. take punishment) in Benjamin's place for a sin that Benjamin did not do (See Genesis 44).


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    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    "..It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow....thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit."
    (John 3:7-8)

    ...as in:

    26 "But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now." (Galatians 4:26-29)

    Did you catch what the passage in Galatians above said?

    It said Isaac was born after the Spirit.
    So people in the Old Testament were born again.
    I mean, even John the Baptist had the Spirit since his birth. This was a time during the Old Covenant.


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  12. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Also, Ezekiel 44:9 says that those who were uncircumcised in heart could not enter the sanctuary. How would one know if they were cicrumcised in heart or not? How could others know if this person was circumcised in heart or not? Truly this is talking about the person who has been changed or regenerated spiritually whereby they would show forth their new and dedicated life to God by their good fruits or deeds (i.e. how they talked and acted in front of others in a truly Godly way).

    I mean, can a person circumcise their heart and live?
    What does circumcised in heart mean in the Old Testament?
    Is it just meaningless rubbish?
    Did not circumcision stand as a mark of one who was saved?


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  13. CherubRam

    CherubRam Judaic Christian

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    Everyone sees what they want to see, right?
     
  14. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    NOT the same thing as Yeshua was telling Nakdimon. Read it again. There are 2 possible births and a possible 2 deaths, 1 physical birth and 1 physical death as there is one spiritual birth and a possible spiritual death (the 2nd death). To enter one must be born again...His Kingdom is not of THIS world. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. Flesh and blood can not inherit The Kingdom. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man. Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    As God said...
    Exodus 28:3
    And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

    Exodus 31:3
    And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

    Exodus 35:21
    And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the Lord's offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.

    Exodus 35:31
    And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

    Numbers 11:25
    And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

    Numbers 11:26
    But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

    And here is my favorite....

    Numbers 11:29
    And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Isaac was born of the Spirit according to Galatians 4:28-29. This means Jesus was saying that being born again was not a new concept to Nicodemus. In fact, Jesus says to Nicodemus that how can he be a great teacher in Israel and not know these things.

    “Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” (John 3:9-10).​
    ‭‭
    I also provided many verses talking about the spiritual circumcision of the heart of believers that is a process done by God (and also the believer). This is what Jesus was talking about. Circumcision of the heart is just another way of saying born again. Please stop being close minded and just read the verses I provided earlier about the circumcision of the heart in the OT in prayer.


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    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  17. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    We don't read Isaiah quoted as a reference to an individual.
     
  18. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    It goes both ways, doesn't it?
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    But it reads as speaking of an individual with no avert references that it is a nation but it is more like a person. It also happens to fit Christ and His plan of salvation to a "T." It also backs up the story of Joseph and brings more meaning to it. Especially about the part about the cup placed in Benjamin's sack and Judah taking Benjamin's place for that cup of guilt. The same thing happened in the Garden of Gethsemane.


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    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  20. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    YOU need to read what I posted and what Yeshua said...not what you think it means.
     
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