Interesting Article!

[Romanseight2005]

I agree Stan, about the manipulativeness of it all.

Xfeak, no insult taken.

 

[sdmsanjose]

we need to learn to pick apart what's being "preached" and whether or not we want to "buy" it.

[FONT=&quot]Right on MK!!![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Also we have a great manual as to what we should buy. That manual has been around for centuries, in hundreds of languages, and has proven to be great at giving us criteria for buying and selling![/FONT]

 

[McScribe]

The original article in the OP suggests that there needs to be some discussion with boys about issues like the Miley Cyrus performance. Then he leads into talking about misogyny. Then he goes into talking about how we need to call b.s. on attempts to end domestic violence and misogyny towards women by only talking to our daughters.

Not really, Pastor Eric. This gets a big eyeroll from me. Whenever someone writes this, today, I think "yeah, we've heard this over and over again." The trouble is not that it is only women being talked to--although you'd sure think it was reading this guy's blog. The problem is that both aren't being talked to together. This is a perfect example of where it could be. Miley is after all by the standards of my country an adult; she is capable of making her own decisions, as is Robin. So BOTH of them decided to do this video. So where's the misogyny? In his leap of logic that this will lead to more rape? Furthermore, it's not like over the last two years Miley Cyrus was an innocent little lamb and suddenly got lascivious one day--she's been doing this for a while.

Here's a suggestion for the Pastor--maybe I'll post on his blog--how about talking to BOTH boys and girls at the same time? How to respect each other, treat one another well? How about accepting that men and women are equally capable of evil--and that evil is wrong no matter who does it? Enough with the Don Quixote rubbish.

 

[mkgal1]

The problem is that both aren't being talked to together. This is a perfect example of where it could be. Miley is after all by the standards of my country an adult; she is capable of making her own decisions, as is Robin. So BOTH of them decided to do this video. So where's the misogyny? In his leap of logic that this will lead to more rape?

Where's the misogyny? In the lyrics of the song (mostly).....and, the whole dynamic of how each (meaning RT and Miley) get their notoriety in "making history" (which is what Miley has claimed was her goal. RT has said something similar---that he wants as many people to see his "work" as possible).

Furthermore, it's not like over the last two years Miley Cyrus was an innocent little lamb and suddenly got lascivious one day--she's been doing this for a while.

Here's a suggestion for the Pastor--maybe I'll post on his blog--how about talking to BOTH boys and girls at the same time? How to respect each other, treat one another well? How about accepting that men and women are equally capable of evil--and that evil is wrong no matter who does it? Enough with the Don Quixote rubbish.

It's not attacking windmills......it's attacking something that's very real. What Miley has been doing (in my opinion) is *trying* to gain a foothold in a tough industry by mimicking what she sees (what she believes the audience wants). Her translation (or execution) is off.......but, it still is a reflection of what she sees around her.

 

[McScribe]

Here is how the article ends:



Bolding is original to the article.



I don't think it's so much about the song or what happened on stage. It's about getting this message out: it's not enough that feminists talk to women about leaving unhealthy and abusive relationships. It's not enough that feminists talk to men about the unfairness of the power imbalance and their enforcement of perceived power in the home. The only way to address these issues is by teaching our sons the appropriate way to treat women - by respecting them and treating them as equals; and by teaching our sons that it's not okay to be treated the way Robin Thicke was treated in the video - that our boys do not have to take that kind of disrespectful treatment, just as women do not have to take disrespectful treatment.

I agree with what VG says here. I'm not referring to tilting at windmills so much as I am saying that the pastor is like Don Quixote trying to " defend" Dulcinea, who is actually making her own choices.

 

[mkgal1]

I agree with what VG says here. I'm not referring to tilting at windmills so much as I am saying that the pastor is like Don Quixote trying to " defend" Dulcinea, who is actually making her own choices.

She's (Miley) making her own choices within a corrupt dynamic, though. I don't see it as the pastor "defending" her (or all women, for that matter) as much as he is trying to right the wrongs (which is a broken and corrupt dynamic and how to repair it---for our own lives and, hopefully, the lives of our children. We can't change others.).

 

[McScribe]

She's (Miley) making her own choices within a corrupt dynamic, though. I don't see it as the pastor "defending" her (or all women, for that matter) as much as he is trying to right the wrongs (which is a broken and corrupt dynamic and how to repair it---for our own lives and, hopefully, the lives of our children. We can't change others.).

So you agree with the pastor then? It's not about everyone having a sense of integrity so much as it is that boys need to be told: liking Miley Cyrus tweaking leads to misogyny and domestic violence and rape?

 

[mkgal1]

So you agree with the pastor then? It's not about everyone having a sense of integrity

Yes (I agree with the pastor). But....it *is* about everyone having a sense of integrity. The article says this as his conclusion:

Our value comes from being respected and being loved as we respect and love the people who matter to us. Be brave enough to tell a different story. Be courageous enough to rise above the lies that our culture tells you about how to treat women. In doing so, you’ll help create a better world for your sons. And for your sons’ sons. And that’s something to which we should all aspire.

I read that as completely different than, "liking Miley Cyrus tweaking leads to misogyny and domestic violence and rape?" It's not about her "tweaking" (there's a lot more to it than that). I believe (could be wrong....I'm not up on all this)....but, I think the term is "twerking".

 

[McScribe]

The blog/article sites he linked to for mothers talking to daughters about about dignity and self respect. The article the pastor wrote is basically "don't rape and abuse women, boys." It's lopsided. The point VG made, and that I made, is that it is not enough to write these things. There is given no sense of what the alternatives actually are, including in the women's blogs. It's hallmark card vagueness, and therefore in my opinion useless and counterproductive advice.

 

[mkgal1]

I agree with what VG says here. I'm not referring to tilting at windmills so much as I am saying that the pastor is like Don Quixote trying to " defend" Dulcinea, who is actually making her own choices.

So.....are you suggesting that RT was victimized or disrespected?

 

[mkgal1]

The blog/article sites he linked to for mothers talking to daughters about about dignity and self respect. The article the pastor wrote is basically "don't rape and abuse women, boys." It's lopsided. The point VG made, and that I made, is that it is not enough to write these things. There is given no sense of what the alternatives actually are, including in the women's blogs. It's hallmark card vagueness, and therefore in my opinion useless and counterproductive advice.

As to it being lopsided-----the author's point was, "It's not enough to *only* talk to our daughters.....our sons *also* need to be brought into the conversation". IOW......I read that to mean----"let's balance things out and not allow it to stay lopsided".

The alternative.....to abusing and raping? Is that what you mean? Probably that starts with Defined Lines (as opposed to the Blurry Ones). Another thing the blog article says is that, "We need to talk to our sons and our brothers about respecting women and respecting themselves." IMO.....teaching boys to respect women is simultaneously teaching them to respect themselves at the same time. It's also....."loving God (which includes having His standards) and loving others as ourselves".

 

[McScribe]

So.....are you suggesting that RT was victimized or disrespected?

I'm not even referring to Thicke. I'm referring to the pastor whose blog was linked to in the OP. He's the Don Quixote. He consistently in his blog makes it clear that he's making his own stand against The Patriarchy.

 

[McScribe]

As to it being lopsided-----the author's point was, "It's not enough to *only* talk to our daughters.....our sons *also* need to be brought into the conversation". IOW......I read that to mean----"let's balance things out and not allow it to stay lopsided".

The alternative.....to abusing and raping? Is that what you mean? Probably that starts with Defined Lines (as opposed to the Blurry Ones). Another thing the blog article says is that, "We need to talk to our sons and our brothers about respecting women and respecting themselves." IMO.....teaching boys to respect women is simultaneously teaching them to respect themselves at the same time. It's also....."loving God (which includes having His standards) and loving others as ourselves".

It's still lopsided. It's typical modern preaching: a few platitudes stated earnestly with nothing practical at all.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

So.....are you suggesting that RT was victimized or disrespected?

I don't think he was victimized. I do think he was disrespected.

That being said, if the genders were reversed and a woman was singing and a guy she was supposed to be dueting with "in the heat of the moment" grabbed her crotch, touched her breasts, and climbed on her to nibble her neck and kiss her, I'm sure people would be arguing she was victimized. The outrage would be loud, long, and bitter.

Adrian Brody gave Hallie Berry a passionate kiss in the heat of the moment after winning an Oscar, people were outraged at the violation of her body and personal space until she came out and said that they were friends and she didn't mind. Nobody said "well, she was topless in "Swordfish" and did a graphic sex scene in (I can't think of the movie's name... But she won an Oscar for it...), Adrian Brody was merely doing to her what she has been doing in the name of entertainment for awhile."

 

[mkgal1]

I'm not even referring to Thicke. I'm referring to the pastor whose blog was linked to in the OP. He's the Don Quixote. He consistently in his blog makes it clear that he's making his own stand against The Patriarchy.

You had said you agreed with VG when she said this:

I don't think it's so much about the song or what happened on stage. It's about getting this message out: it's not enough that feminists talk to women about leaving unhealthy and abusive relationships. It's not enough that feminists talk to men about the unfairness of the power imbalance and their enforcement of perceived power in the home. The only way to address these issues is by teaching our sons the appropriate way to treat women - by respecting them and treating them as equals; and by teaching our sons that it's not okay to be treated the way Robin Thicke was treated in the video - that our boys do not have to take that kind of disrespectful treatment, just as women do not have to take disrespectful treatment.

and, you added, "I am saying that the pastor is like Don Quixote trying to " defend" Dulcinea, who is actually making her own choices."

So.....when you say, "Dulcinea, who is actually making her own choices".....do you mean women in general---or what? (I thought you were referring to Miley).

 

[mkgal1]

I don't think he was victimized. I do think he was disrespected.

I think that disrespect began with his own self-disrespect (and that---I believe---is what the blog article is about). It begins with that.

 

[Hetta]

I don't find the advice "useless" or "counterproductive". Perhaps because I can use articles like this to discuss these attitudes with my children. It's a good jumping off point for us to have a discussion. Maybe parents see it differently to non-parents.

 

[mkgal1]

I don't think he was victimized. I do think he was disrespected.

That being said, if the genders were reversed and a woman was singing and a guy she was supposed to be dueting with "in the heat of the moment" grabbed her crotch, touched her breasts, and climbed on her to nibble her neck and kiss her, I'm sure people would be arguing she was victimized. The outrage would be loud, long, and bitter.

Adrian Brody gave Hallie Berry a passionate kiss in the heat of the moment after winning an Oscar, people were outraged at the violation of her body and personal space until she came out and said that they were friends and she didn't mind. Nobody said "well, she was topless in "Swordfish" and did a graphic sex scene in (I can't think of the movie's name... But she won an Oscar for it...), Adrian Brody was merely doing to her what she has been doing in the name of entertainment for awhile."

A whole lot more would have to occur for the genders to be reversed.

 

[McScribe]

You had said you agreed with VG when she said this:



and, you added, "I am saying that the pastor is like Don Quixote trying to " defend" Dulcinea, who is actually making her own choices."

So.....when you say, "Dulcinea, who is actually making her own choices".....do you mean women in general---or what? (I thought you were referring to Miley).

1. The pastor makes the main point about holding power over women and about violence and misogyny, and that "as men, our value does not come from how much power we hold over women."

2. The 'conversations with daughters' he links to barely refer to men at all; they refer only to self respect and decency.

3. So boys are being told that they need to be intentional in the way that they treat others, while girls are being told that they need to be intentional in the way that they treat themselves.

I see both Thicke and Cyrus making choices, but while the pastor feels that there has been too much talk of Cyrus and finds it acceptable that she has been told essentially to have more self respect, he calls Thicke and by proxy other boys and men on how their collective responses to women affect society. That is why I call it lopsided.

 

[mkgal1]

It's typical modern preaching: a few platitudes stated earnestly with nothing practical at all.

It's a short blog article.....like Hetta said, a jumping off point. I'm not sure what sort of "practical" advice you're looking for.