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Intercession of the saints

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Hoonbaba, Apr 19, 2002.

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  1. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi guys,

    I read that Revelation 5:8 and Revelation 8:3-4 have something to do with it. I don't feel understand how it fits. I guess I just don't understand what it means when the passage says, "prayer of all the saints". Would that include those in heaven?

    Ephesians 3:15 seems to mention the connection between family on earth and heaven. And Revelation seems to connect the two together as one body.

    One (protestant) brother said that it sounds like some form of ancestral worship. Yet at the same time, I realize that those who are in heaven, aren't dead, but rather they're probably more alive than us.

    But what I'm confused about is how do you pray to the saints, asking them to intercede?

    Hypothetically speaking, is it possible for non-Catholics to do such things? Would one possible way to do this is to ask Jesus (who intercedes for us), to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us?? LOL!!

    God bless

    -Jason
     
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  2. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Jason:

    How do you ask anyone to pray for you? If you are hurting, you walk up to a friend or a relative and say, "Hey, Brother, I've got a burden right now in my life, would you say a prayer for me?"

    Many Catholics feel a particular closeness to a Saint, or to Mary, and they take their worries, their fears, their hopes, their dreams to this Saint in a "private discussion." It's like talking with a good friend, only you don't get immediate feedback...but then again, you don't get judgment, or a wandering mind, or a rendition of the friend's problems that day, too.

    I know mothers feel particularly drawn to Mary, because she was the Mother of God. "Dear Mary, you know what it was like to have your Child frustrate you! Oh, how you must have worried when you lost him in the Temple! And then when He scolded you for worrying! Help me, Mother. My kids are driving me nuts. Ask Jesus to grant me patience, as you knew patience."

    Heavens, we ALL can use friends!


    Peace be with you!
    ~VOW
     
  3. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    But asking saints to pray is unbiblical....

    I guess this is where I might have to trust apostolic authority.

    But I was also wondering:

    When you said "Mother of God" are you referring to Mother of God (the Father)? Or Mother of God (the Son, Jesus)? These terms are somewhat confusing.

    -Jason
     
  4. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Jason:

    Wolseley did an explanation a while back about the word "to pray." It has an Old English origin, "prithee," meaning, "I beg of you." It is even still used in British courtrooms, when the councilors (dressed in their black robes and funny white wigs!) "pray" to the court for justice.

    In modern usage, "pray" means to have a discussion with God. But when Catholics use it, it's to ask a saint for intercession. Are we not instructed in the Bible to pray for one another? We ASK the Saints, those alive in Christ, to pray with us to God.

    And Mary is the Mother of Jesus, who was 100% Divine, and 100% Human. Through her, Jesus obtained His humanity, but He was, and always is, 100% God.

    Kinda like an algebraic equation:

    Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

    Not God the Father, nor God the Holy Spirit, but God the Son.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  5. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    I think you're referring to James 5:16 which confessing one sins to one another and praying for one another. Also I just came across something fascinating:

    Ephesians 6:18 - And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

    But is that to say we should be also praying FOR the saints in heaven?

    Ah this makes sense =) These terms, can sound almost heretical :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  6. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

    Rev 8:2-4 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
    And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

    Hebrews 12
    1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

    I had a hard time with intercessory prayer until I looked at the saints in Heaven as my brothers and sisters, the angels as my guardians, and both of them as my supporters in eternity.

    The author of Hebrews says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witness...and check out Chapter 11 to see just who some of those witnesses are. Christ says that all in Heaven rejoice at the repentance of one sinner. We are family. Those who have passed on into eternal life are, on a very real sense, closer to us than they were on earth. Having been perfected in Him, their prayers through Christ are most precious to us. They watch after us and support us through prayer. They have a real interest in our salvation. Like Revelations 8 says, the incense is the prayer of ALL THE SAINTS. Our holy wishes become theirs for us. They can do nothing on their own, but through Christ, we have the largest prayer group imaginable, Jason.

    Think about this. The 24 elders fell down at the foot of the Lamb who was on the altar, and who looked like he was slain. At Mass we participate in this Heavenly worship as that same Lamb, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, lies on the altar in front of us in the Eucharist. We get a taste of the life to come at every Mass. It makes me realize just what is meant when we join Mary and all the saints in heaven in their unending hymn of praise. Thanks Dr. Hahn for opening that up for me.

    Neal
     
  7. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Jason,

    In Luke Elizabeth refers to Mary as the mother of her Lord. The word in Greek was Kyrios, meaning God, if I'm not mistaken...somebody help me out here, please.

    Neal
     
  8. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Luke 1:43 =) But normally I'd associate 'Lord' with Jesus, and not as God the Son. But I guess it doesn't really matter.
     
  9. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Whoa!!! I've read Hebrews 12:1 tons of times before , especially where it says, "we are surrounded by great a cloud of witnesses", and it NEVER occurred to me that this is to be taken literally! I always believed it meant:

    "the great cloud of witnesses (Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc) are a bunch of people who were faithful to God. Thus it's encouraging to know that we have such stories that we can relate with."

    Of course that's true, but knowing that they are REALLY among us, is INCREDIBLY ENCOURAGING!!!! :)

    Also, I just wanted to share something relevant:

    Hebrews 12:22-24 (NIV)

    "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN WHO ARE REGISTERED IN HEAVEN, to God the Judge of all, to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

    DUH! :) It would make sense to believe that we who are in the kingdom of God are actually AMONG the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven!!! Now I'm starting to see the connection between the family in Heaven and on Earth! I never realized that asking the saints to pray for us is like having a MASSIVE prayer meeting!!! GLORY TO GOD!!! =)

    By the way, I know this may sound really silly, but do I have to be Catholic to do this? LOL! :) And how exactly do Catholics go about asking others for intercession? Is it the same way as asking any other brother in Christ?

    Now I REALLY want to know more about this :) Also, do I have to be Catholic to participate in Mass?
    For the Eucharist, I have to right?

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  10. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    By the way, your books are in the mail. I hope you enjoy them.

    My Lord and my God....

    Neal
     
  11. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Thank you so much!

    -Jason
     
  12. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    LOL...You won't believe this, but I sent a Catholic prayer book along with Rome Sweet Home! God is great! You know, I had looked over 12:22-24...That is amazing isn't it?

    If you want to know more about the Mass, I learned that info I posted from Scott Hahn's The Lamb's Supper. I'd send it, too, but it's already leant out. It is an AMAZING book, though.

    No, you don't have to be Catholic to pray to the saints. As a member of the Body of Christ, Mary is your mother just as much as mine. She will be more than happy to pray for you. Read the end of Revelations 12 and note who her children are. I think you fit the description :)

    Neal
     
  13. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    For the Eucharist, yes, you would need to be Catholic. However, you are free to participate in the rest. You can even go up with everyone else for communion, but instead of taking the Host, cross your arms and the priest will bless you and say a prayer. You are welcome at any Catholic Church Mass :)
     
  14. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic


    IT'S INCREDIBLE!!! =)

    PRAISE GOD!! :) I HAVE THE BOOK!!! hahahah That was my first book I bought my Scott Hahn. :)

    But right now I'm reading his "A Father Who Keeps His Promises" and it's great stuff!! =)

    If Mary is my mother (that just sounds weird), is that to say that she's somehow 'married' to God the Father?? heh, I was thinking about this logic:

    God = God the Father
    God = God the Son
    God the Father = the Father of the Son (Jesus)
    Mary = Mother of Jesus

    Therefore....Mary is 'married' to God the Father!??

    Am I stretching this a bit too much!? LOL =)

    -Jason
     
  15. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    There is no marriage in Heaven, right???
    Neal
     
  16. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    LOL oh yea =)
     
  17. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Jason:

    Oh, yes, Mary is YOUR MOTHER, too!

    When Jesus was dying on the Cross, He summoned the disciple He loved, John. Everyone was grieving so, especially His mother. Oh, how it must have hurt her to see her beloved Son in such agony. As a mother myself, just seeing one of my kids sick with a fever or a scraped knee (even as big as they are now, LOL!) turns my heart over in my chest with such sympathy. Jesus was DYING, and He still cared so much for His mother. He told John, "Behold your mother!" and then He told Mary, "Woman, behold your son!"

    The Church teaches that the very impersonal language that Jesus used at that time was intentional. Not only was he giving the physical care of His mother to John, to take her into John's home and see that she was sheltered and fed, but at that moment, Jesus was also giving His mother to all of mankind.

    Now this is incredibly comforting to me, because my mother died almost four years ago. As old as I am, the thought of no longer being "her child" leaves such an emptiness in my life. Nobody loves you, nor accepts you as completely as your mother.

    But I can visually crawl up into Mary's lap and feel her arms around me and be a comforted child again.



    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  18. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    Hm why don't we have Jesus pray for us? I thought he did.
     
  19. AlphaPhi

    AlphaPhi Member

    279
    +0
    Nick, of course we have Jesus to pray for us. In fact, all prayers of the Saints must pass through him to reach God the Father, given his role as the one Mediator. Why do you think we're saying that Jesus doesn't pray for us?
     
  20. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    I dunno I just don't see the point of asking prayer from an angel, if Jesus himself is already doing it.

    No disrespect to angels WHATSOEVER! Sorry~
     
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