Insurgents offer to halt attacks in Iraq

[Sleeker]

If one goes to newamericancentury.org one can easily see the plans for invading Iraq, installing permanent bases in the ME, oh, and the letter sent to Clinton in 1998 asking him to invade Iraq. Who are members? Rumsfeld and Cheney to name two...oh, and Jeb Bush has signed a few letters as well.

Did I see George Bush in your post? No.

Oh, and don't make me do your research for you. That's your own job.

Like I said, when it comes directly from the horses mouth, it is not a "theory" but simply looking at the facts.

George W. isn't on there, so it isn't directly from the horse's mouth.

 

[k]

Did I see George Bush in your post? No.

Oh, and don't make me do your research for you. That's your own job.


George W. isn't on there, so it isn't directly from the horse's mouth.

Oh. My. Goodness.

God Bless brother but I cannot continue in these type of convos when such blatant disregard for evidence is apparent.

 

[Sleeker]

You said, "directly from the horse's mouth." I fail to see George W. Bush's name on the list. Therefore, you are wrong.

Simple logic.

 

[Balko]

Okay, let's not invade Canada and go back on topic. The insurgents want us to not fight with them(so they can build up strength), because we know the US has taken a bunch of weapon caches, and release prisoners, and leave in two years. So the demand is basically give us our troops back, let us have war supplies, and leave. What do you think they plan to do.

 

[dignitized]

You said, "directly from the horse's mouth." I fail to see George W. Bush's name on the list. Therefore, you are wrong.

Simple logic.

don't confuse the issue with logic

 

[Sleeker]

Show me how I'm wrong, misleading, or have misunderstood.

 

[dignitized]

Show me how I'm wrong, misleading, or have misunderstood.

I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Sleeker]

Oh, yeah, I see it now. I thought you were saying that my logic was wrong, not that the opposition won't get the logic. I see now.

 

[k]

You said, "directly from the horse's mouth." I fail to see George W. Bush's name on the list. Therefore, you are wrong.

Simple logic.

Let's take a moment to clear up who stated what. True, I did say it was directly from the "horse's mouth" but it was you, NOT I who said "Bush."

#31

My point was invading Iraq was a long, long time goal of the people who run the Bush admin and it is just strange to claim invasion was absolutely necessary.

#34

It is NOT an opinion that it has been a long time goal of the Bush admin to invade Iraq because there is much evidence proving this. Not the least is the letter they sent to Clinton in 98' begging him to invade.

#37

Where did Bush say he was planning on taking over Iraq since before he was President, since you said it was "directly from the horse's mouth?"

#38

One cannot separate "Bush" from the Bush Administration...he's not there by himself. Many people who make up the Admin sent a letter to Clinton in 98' begging him to invade.

Clearly it was NOT I who said "Bush" so all of this comes back to someone putting words into my mouth then making an implicit claim that I didn't follow simple logic.

Also, it is clear from my posts the "horse" in this case is the Bush administration, not "Bush" himself. Not only is it disingenous to try and separate Bush from the Admin but it is outright dishonest to put words into someone else's mouth.

Finally, considering the fact the administration has done exactly what they said they wanted to do in Iraq (a whole YEAR before 9/11 happened), it doesn't matter if Bush is a charter member of the PNAC or not.

 

[k]

Okay, let's not invade Canada and go back on topic. The insurgents want us to not fight with them(so they can build up strength), because we know the US has taken a bunch of weapon caches, and release prisoners, and leave in two years. So the demand is basically give us our troops back, let us have war supplies, and leave. What do you think they plan to do.

I'm not sure this makes much sense considering the US has 14 permanent bases in Iraq. The people of Iraq know the US plans on never leaving so the hypothesis of a bait n switch does not jive with reality on the ground. Now, if the US planned on leaving I would agree with the reasoning here.

 

[Sleeker]

I suppose you were referring to the Bush administration, but I don't think that having just anyone from the Bush administration say before Bush was elected that he/she wanted to invade Iraq means anything. Bush is the final authority, and he never said anything about it.

Unless you're one of those who believes he's a puppet.

I'm not sure this makes much sense considering the US has 14 permanent bases in Iraq. The people of Iraq know the US plans on never leaving so the hypothesis of a bait n switch does not jive with reality on the ground. Now, if the US planned on leaving I would agree with the reasoning here.

Isn't it normal to establish bases in countries that we have occupied? I seem to remember a number of bases that we still have in Japan, Italy, and Germany. I don't know how many we establish there immediately after the war though.

 

[k]

I suppose you were referring to the Bush administration, but I don't think that having just anyone from the Bush administration say before Bush was elected that he/she wanted to invade Iraq means anything. Bush is the final authority, and he never said anything about it.

Unless you're one of those who believes he's a puppet.

It is not just "anyone" from the Bush admin....it's the Vice President....Secretary of Defense, people like Perle, Tenet, Wolfowitz.......even Jeb Bush has signed some PNAC letters. I'm not saying if Bush is a puppet or not but it's way, way, way, way too much of a coincidence that Bush has done virtually everything the PNAC Manifesto called for regarding Iraq...heck...even the internet and other issues.

Isn't it normal to establish bases in countries that we have occupied? I seem to remember a number of bases that we still have in Japan, Italy, and Germany. I don't know how many we establish there immediately after the war though.

We cannot compare WWII to Iraq for myriad reasons and another reason why the permanent bases there do not make sense is because of the "Mission" that has changed several times. If we are there to install Democracy how can we expect a nation of people to feel "Free" when a foreign military has guns permanently planted and pointed in all directions? It was the same thing in Vietnam....the voter turn out was high because people were afraid they would be considered the "enemy" if they did not go to vote.

 

[dignitized]

I guess the "free" people of Germany have never really been free cause we still have military bases in THAT country as well . . . . OR could it be that in both cases the bases are there to guarantee that foreign influences hostile to democracy and freedoms - in case of Germany the USSR - in case of Iraq the islamofascisist of Iran, syria, Al Queada . . . . .

 

[Sleeker]

It is not just "anyone" from the Bush admin....it's the Vice President....Secretary of Defense, people like Perle, Tenet, Wolfowitz.......even Jeb Bush has signed some PNAC letters. I'm not saying if Bush is a puppet or not but it's way, way, way, way too much of a coincidence that Bush has done virtually everything the PNAC Manifesto called for regarding Iraq...heck...even the internet and other issues.

Jeb Bush is part of the administration?

The bottom line is still that Bush didn't talk about invading Iraq before his presidency. Others in his administration advocated an attack before his presidency, but only in response to Iraq's actions (I seem to remember that even Clinton authorized missile attacks).

We cannot compare WWII to Iraq for myriad reasons and another reason why the permanent bases there do not make sense is because of the "Mission" that has changed several times.

Why not?

If we are there to install Democracy how can we expect a nation of people to feel "Free" when a foreign military has guns permanently planted and pointed in all directions?

Isn't that exactly what we did in Germany, Italy, and Japan?

It was the same thing in Vietnam....the voter turn out was high because people were afraid they would be considered the "enemy" if they did not go to vote.

Huh?

 

[k]

Jeb Bush is part of the administration?

No, obviously I mentioned the fact of his involvement w/ the PNAC to show how close the Bush family is with it.

The bottom line is still that Bush didn't talk about invading Iraq before his presidency. Others in his administration advocated an attack before his presidency, but only in response to Iraq's actions (I seem to remember that even Clinton authorized missile attacks).

There are two bottom lines here.

1. It is absolutely false to say Bush did not say he wanted to invade Iraq before he was President.

“He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999,” said author and journalist Mickey Herskowitz. “It was on his mind. He said to me: ‘One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.’ And he said, ‘My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.’ He said, ‘If I have a chance to invade….if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency.”
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=761

2. The fact that Bush has done everything the PNAC wanted to regarding Iraq has still not been addressed.


We also know that right after he took office the admin began planning invading Iraq...a whole 9 months before 9/11.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/

 

[dignitized]

well if Mickey Herskowitz said it, it must be true . . . .

We also know that right after he took office the admin began planning invading Iraq...a whole 9 months before 9/11.

I get a kick out of the way people say "he was already panning to invade Iraq" like it's some terrible revelation. Guess what, Clinton would have had plans on how to invade Iraq. I thought it was already covered that there are plans on the books for invading every country in the world - yes even Canada. It's a natural part of national defense. You don't want to have to play catch up if something happens and you find yourself at war with country X.

 

[Sleeker]

No, obviously I mentioned the fact of his involvement w/ the PNAC to show how close the Bush family is with it.

So, a brother of George W. Bush who is in PNAC automatically means that George W. Bush supports its ideals?

There are two bottom lines here.

1. It is absolutely false to say Bush did not say he wanted to invade Iraq before he was President.

No it isn't.

“He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999,” said author and journalist Mickey Herskowitz. “It was on his mind. He said to me: ‘One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.’ And he said, ‘My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.’ He said, ‘If I have a chance to invade….if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency.”
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=761

It looks as if he's talking about ideas he picked up by watching his own father be president. Just because he says, "If I had the chance to invade," that doesn't mean he was inevitably planning on going to war.

2. The fact that Bush has done everything the PNAC wanted to regarding Iraq has still not been addressed.

What exactly is this "everything the PNAC wanted to regarding Iraq," and where did you get the information from?

We also know that right after he took office the admin began planning invading Iraq...a whole 9 months before 9/11.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/

I like this quote: "'Haven't we already given money to rich people... Shouldn't we be giving money to the middle?' Suskind says Bush asked, according to what CBS called a 'nearly verbatim' transcript of an economic team meeting Suskind said he obtained from someone at the meeting."

"Nearly verbatim."

By the way, this is the evidence cited for a pre-planned invasion of Iraq:

"There are memos," Suskind told the network. "One of them marked 'secret' says 'Plan for Post-Saddam Iraq.'"
Suskind cited a Pentagon document titled "Foreign Suitors For Iraqi Oilfield Contracts," which, he said, outlines areas of oil exploration. "It talks about contractors around the world from ... 30, 40 countries and which ones have what intentions on oil in Iraq."

I don't know about you, but I don't see anything about war there.

 

[k]

well if Mickey Herskowitz said it, it must be true . . . .


I get a kick out of the way people say "he was already panning to invade Iraq" like it's some terrible revelation. Guess what, Clinton would have had plans on how to invade Iraq. I thought it was already covered that there are plans on the books for invading every country in the world - yes even Canada. It's a natural part of national defense. You don't want to have to play catch up if something happens and you find yourself at war with country X.

For at least the second time, where are the plans to invade Canada?

Where are the plans Clinton had to invade Iraq?

There is a HUGE diff between a contingency plan and an active plan.

Finally, any evidence to support the implicit claim that Herkowitz is not being truthful?

 

[k]

So, a brother of George W. Bush who is in PNAC automatically means that George W. Bush supports its ideals?

It has already been stated several times the proof exists. Bush has done nearly everything the PNAC stated in its manifesto. newamericancentury.org is the website.

If one were to argue Bush does not support their ideas/plans one must reconcile that claim with the fact he has FOLLOWED those plans.

It looks as if he's talking about ideas he picked up by watching his own father be president. Just because he says, "If I had the chance to invade," that doesn't mean he was inevitably planning on going to war.

mmm...that's a strange claim considering Bush Sr advised AGAINST invading Iraq in 03. Moreover, how in the cold noodles does, "If I had the chance to invade" not mean he planned on it. Of course, barring some other event besides 9/11 he could not have invaded because he needed an emotional reason to justify it on. 9/11 was that gift. That WAS his chance to invade because we all know 9/11 and Iraq are about as related as ethics and drug dealers.

What exactly is this "everything the PNAC wanted to regarding Iraq," and where did you get the information from?

gave the website above

I like this quote: "'Haven't we already given money to rich people... Shouldn't we be giving money to the middle?' Suskind says Bush asked, according to what CBS called a 'nearly verbatim' transcript of an economic team meeting Suskind said he obtained from someone at the meeting."

"Nearly verbatim."

By the way, this is the evidence cited for a pre-planned invasion of Iraq:

I don't know about you, but I don't see anything about war there.

Why? Because the word "war" is not in that one piece?

 

[Sleeker]

It has already been stated several times the proof exists. Bush has done nearly everything the PNAC stated in its manifesto. newamericancentury.org is the website.

Bush is not a member of PNAC. Just because he does what PNAC likes doesn't make him a pseudo-member either. If an athiest follows Christian morals, does it make that person a Christian? No.

mmm...that's a strange claim considering Bush Sr advised AGAINST invading Iraq in 03.

I do not see how this relates to what I've said.

Moreover, how in the cold noodles does, "If I had the chance to invade" not mean he planned on it. Of course, barring some other event besides 9/11 he could not have invaded because he needed an emotional reason to justify it on. 9/11 was that gift. That WAS his chance to invade because we all know 9/11 and Iraq are about as related as ethics and drug dealers.

If I had the chance, I would become President. Do I plan to become the president? Nope.

Why? Because the word "war" is not in that one piece?

I don't see anything about war, battles, military action, or forceful intervention.