Instigating Headship/Submission?

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

I'm particularly addressing this to younger, newly married women and men here, but I appreciate everyone's input.

How did you instigate the Biblical form of headship and submission in your marriage? How do you view headship and submission?

For you 'more independant' women, particularly those who had a long time of singleness before you wed, how did you go about instigating submission to your husband? How tricky was it? How did your husbands respond to headship?

It's been a wonderment of mine for some time. I believe in the biblical view (I shared what I think is the best form of this in the 'naive question' thread), however don't quite know how to instigate this before marriage - especially with a boyfriend who is scared of turning into a 'bully' with it.

It's been hard trying to give my boyfriend the ability to take leadership in our relationship. He's made a mess of that when he's tried it in the past, so he's rather reticent of instigating it now - his old behaviour scares him, and there's a fear in him that he could turn into the bad examples he's seen of it in his family.

Has anyone else dealt with this? I have no problem having this covenant in our marriage (provided it links with the Biblical viewpoint, and not this whole subculture of 'domination' I've seen in conservative Christian circles sometimes), but I'm finding it hard to show my boyfriend how it can be a GOOD thing, when all he's seen is bad examples.

Any advice? Testimonials?

Sasch

 

[Jenna]

Hi Sascha,

I guess that some could say that I am somewhat 'newly married'. lol My husband and I will embark on our fourth year of marriage at the end of this month.

When I was growing into adulthood, I was a very forceful woman. I was raised in a family where it was commonly joked about that a woman could do anything that a man could, and better. It was common to hear the women of my family talk about their husbands and refer to them as another "child" or to see them openly scold them at social functions, etc. So, being the strong willed person that I am, and the upbringing that I had, it was no wonder that Michael and I had some pretty strong power struggles throughout the beginning of our marriage.

With Michael, he was intimidated by the idea of having a position of authority. I don't think that he was so worried that he would be some kind of bully, but that he honestly had no idea how to be the head of a house and make decisions. His family was also run by the women, and any time that he voiced an opinion, he was promptly shot down. So, when the topic came up, he was very reluctant to step outside of the 'box' that he was used to, and take up the reins. lol

I think that the biggest thing that I did to instigate the change in our relationship was to pray. I would pray again and again that the Lord would change my heart, make me more humble, help me to trust my husband enough to let him make decisions, etc. As I prayed in this fashion, our arguements were dramatically reduced, and I was less stressed than I had previously been. After all, I do have a heart of submission, but it's hard for me to always convince my mind. lol I had seen power abused too many times to want to make myself vulnerable.

The next step to instigating submission was for me to make serving my husband one of my top priorities. In so many areas, I was giving him the scraps of what was left. I was making decision and plans for us, thinking that I would talk to him later. Of course, then he felt pressured and felt as though he never had a say in who we visited and what we did with our days. There were other ways that I dominated the relatioship, but this is just one example. It wasn't that I was trying to be inconsiderate. I just wasn't seeing things from every angle. So, I started putting my husband first, regardless of how other people would view me. I began telling people that I would have to talk with my husband before I made any decisions, and always referred them to him. There were many times when I got nasty looks and comments because I would keep my husband involved at all times. Some women can be very antagonistic and hateful to a woman that they feel is "under the thumb" of her husband. Of course, that isn't how it is.

I've found that as I give up the power struggle and take my place within our relationship, my husband is naturally falling into his. What began with small decision making on his end has grown into a confidence to really lead his family. We've seen many blessings as we've each slid into our own appointed places in marriage. We don't argue nearly as much as we did. Our disagreements are kept to calm discussions and are hashed out as best as we can manage scripturally. Untimately though, if we cannot reach a compromise, then I will try to gracefully bow out and accept Michael's judgement. I think that one of the biggest part of "teaching" a man that he can take his role of authority is to not push his hand and make him feel like he has to dominate you. Many men have a problem putting their wife in her place, and he shouldn't have to. I think that if a woman really values her husband, his role, and the peace of their home, then she needs to adopt submission on her own and not wait until her husband is at his wit's end.

For the time being, I think that I've said all that I can think of to share. lol I know that this can be such a touchy subject, and many people won't agree with me. That's fine. We're all entitled to our own opinions. We'll reap the benefits or consequences whichever way we choose to live. But, this is for you Sasch. I hope that you and Brad figure things out and find a way to be comfortable with each other until you're very old and wrinkley. lol

 

[Katydid]

I was in the military before I got married. As a matter of fact, I met my husband at my first duty station. Anyway, I guess you could say that the way I knew how to be submissive in a healthy way was by watching my parents. My mother would argue with my father about things, but in the end, she would smile about his final decision, even if she didn't completely agree. Now this was only one of the ways, there were many others, but watching them, (They have been married for 34 almost 35 years), is the best way that I learned. Now teaching my husband to be the leader, I refused the position of leader and in essence, he had no choice. He had struggles at first, but he has gotten the hang of it. He is actually an amazing husband and everyone who sees us together constantly reminds me how lucky I am (hey now, is that really a compliment?????). OK but in all honesty, step away from the role, and he will step up.
Just make sure you tell him that if he steps out of line, submission does not mean that you have to stay quiet, you can tell him that he has stepped over the line. You can ask him to correct it. You can bring him to the pastor and tell the pastor the problem. Submission does not mean subjugation.

 

[LiberatedChick]

I've had no one to look up to with regards to submission and my husband isn't Christian either...thus it's been a challenge stepping into my role. My parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles....everyone in my family are not Christian. Even so I learnt a lot from my parents...mainly the ways NOT to do things lol. My mum will walk all over my dad and he doesn't seem to care half the time. So long as it keeps her quiet and stops her moaning. Oh I'm sure she loves him but I don't really feel that she respects him, at least not all of the time. So, not wanting to subject my husband to such a relationship I'm determined to do the opposite to my mother lol. He has seen for himself they way she goes on at my dad and made me promise long ago not to turn out like her. I intend on keeping that promise

Anyway, with no one to look up to I've just had the Bible to guide me. Though with the added complication that my husband is not Christian. So I could potentially find myself having similar difficulties to you, though whilst your husband is unsure about being a leader in the relationship my husband doesn't even know what that entails. However, I think our relationship is, most of the time, as biblical as possible. There are times when I slip up but I find that simply by changing the way I act has changed the way my husband acts. I used to be a dominant person, wanting to do everything and decide everything because I thought that if I did it all then I'd know the who, what, when, where and why of every situation I'd been involved in. I think it was my mothers controlling tendancies creeping through and whilst it felt good to be in control (because then I could be sure everything had gone how it should and if it hadn't I could sort it out) it wasn't right. It certainly wasn't trusting and respectful. So I realised that it wasn't my husband that needed to step forward and take up a leadership role within our relationship but it was me who had to step back. I had to tell myself "No, hold on a minute, let him have his say, let him decide". I found that through changing myself I changed our relationship. Through stopping myself beinging the dominant, controlling person which I didn't want to be at all my husband took the lead. He's not Christian either, he doesn't know about submission etc, he's never read that bit of the Bible. Yet he's leading and I'm submitting. So I guess I instigated it by simply changing the parts of me (or more likely the way I'd learned to be from watching my parents relationship) and then everything else fell into place.

 

[okiemommy26]

Well in my marriage God is the head or we try to let Him be the head of our marriage. Mike and I both do the things together. He is the one that is bringing in the income right now but that is because im going to school fulltime and taking care of the kids when im home and the house but he aslo helps out in doing that he also is going to school but online so its easier to fit to a work schedule. We figure out the bills together and we both take care of the children mainly. Im am strong willed and i know it but so is my hubby, but we work it out.

 

[bliz]

Been married 28 years... and it's been working really well!

I believe that the Bible teaches that husbands and wives are to mutually submit to each other. The head of the marriage is Christ.

 

[mghalpern]

Been married 28 years... and it's been working really well!

I believe that the Bible teaches that husbands and wives are to mutually submit to each other. The head of the marriage is Christ.

Bliz... That sounds great, but can you please give some practical detail on how a husband and wife "mutually submit to each other. Every book on marriage and every minister I hear who speak on the subject seem to agree about discussing everything, take each other's thoughts into account, but in the end, the husband is to make any final decisions. In other words, two people can't steer the vehicle. I've also heard many people sat that unless you come to an agreement, no decision should be made. I'm interested in hearing your practical wisdom...Michael

 

[alaskamolly]

Sascha,

A really really really good book for your boyfriend would be "Reforming Marraige" by Douglas Wilson. It's an incredible book, written to men, on how to lead their families--starting with WHY, and then getting practical.

Talk about a tough subject (and touchy!), my husband and I both were so impressed with this book and how the topic is handled... My husband, who is a full-time minister, went out and bought 10 copies and handed them to all his close married friends (and he's read MANY marraige books and never recommended ONE of them to ANYONE!)...

Throughout the book, the roles of men and woman are discussed WITHOUT it ever getting into this "men are better" spirit, and with a VERY heavy hand on the fact that a good leader will be found loving and respecting his wife. Discussed too are both the errors of over-domineering leaders and those who want to abdicate their leadership role altogether, and a discussion on the problems inherant in both... and the ways both hurt the family.


***Obviously, those who disagree with husbands being leaders won't care to read this book...harharhar ...but for those of you who believe that Ephesians 5 talks about mutual submission among believers AND then goes on to show how Christ wants a marraige relationship to work (husbands leading, wives in support), you will probably really find this book a big blessing!

Warm Regards,
Molly

PS...See, I believe there can be mutual submission between two married Believers AND a leader/helper role going on between them, ALL AT THE SAME TIME...which I think 1 Peter 3 supports as well, first discussing women's submission, but then reminding men of their equality to their wives in the spirit--See, equality in spirit, but roles of authority taken--not because one sex is better than the other, but IN ORDER to show forth a heavenly reality, that of Christ and His relationship to His Bride as described in Eph.5...but I digress!!!!!...

 

[Johnnz]

This is quite a common question.

I am a male. I do not accept the NT teaches that the man has authority over his wife, that her role is to be submissive, as he is the 'boss', the head, the leader. I have done considerable study on all the NT texts. A summary of my position is:

1.The meaning of 'head' in NT times seldom implied 'boss' as it does today. It was the heart, not the head that was the centre of being in NT times.

2. We are to be mutually submitted. The following verses in Ephesians teach how this is to be worked out. Pual was radical in what he wrote. He carefully limited male dominance, which was the standard then, by requiring of men sacrificial love as Christ, God's servant showed to us.

3. Jesus specifically ruled out Christians having "authority over" as the paradigm for leadership in His kingdom. The NT writers used only terms from the lowest class, servants, for leadership. There were many other words available from government, the military and religious groups if a boss/leadership role was intended. The deliberate non-use of any such words is highly significant.

4 There is ample textual evidence for women having significant roles in the NT church, including the two most important ones of apostle and prophet.

5 The standard 'proof texts' for female subordination have been given sound biblical re-evaluation by several comitted Christian scholars. The traditional arguements based on those verses cannot be claimed as authoritative.

We have one leader in our family - Jesus

John
NZ

 

[Svt4Him]

This is a great article, hope it helps.

http://www.themarriagebed.com/submission.shtml

 

[mghalpern]

This is quite a common question.

I am a male. I do not accept the NT teaches that the man has authority over his wife, that her role is to be submissive, as he is the 'boss', the head, the leader. I have done considerable study on all the NT texts.

Johnnz...

I hope you don't feel that I am challenging you in a hostle way. I would love for you to comment directly on the Scriptures and Greek meanings for the words used in the New Testement please...

Ephesians 5:21-24

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.



Submit - G5293

ὑποτάσσω

hupotassō

hoop-ot-as'-so

From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey:—be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.



G2776

κεφαλή

kephalē

kef-al-ay'

Probably from the primary word κάπτωkaptō (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively:—head.

MATTHEW HENRY’S​

COMMENTARY​

ON THE NEW TESTAMENT​

PARSONS CHURCH GROUP​

A DIVISION OF FINDEX.COM, INC.​

Omaha, Nebraska​

An Exposition, with Practical Observations, of​

The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians​

​

Ephesians 5:22-24

I. The duty prescribed to wives is submission to their husbands in the Lord (v. 22), which submission includes the honouring and obeying of them, and that from a principle of love to them. They must do this in compliance with God’s authority, who has commanded it, which is doing it as unto the Lord; or it may be understood by way of similitude and likeness, so that the sense may be, “as, being devoted to God, you submit yourselves unto him.” From the former sense we may learn that by a conscientious discharge of the duties we owe to our fellow-creatures we obey and please God himself; and, from the latter, that God not only requires and insists on those duties which immediately respect himself, but such as respect our neighbours too. The apostle assigns the reason of this submission from wives: For the husband is the head of the wife, v. 23. The metaphor is taken from the head in the natural body, which, being the seat of reason, of wisdom, and of knowledge, and the fountain of sense and motion, is more excellent than the rest of the body. God has given the man the pre-eminence and a right to direct and govern by creation, and in that original law of the relation, Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Whatever there is of uneasiness in this, it is an effect of sin coming into the world. Generally, too, the man has (what he ought to have) a superiority in wisdom and knowledge. He is therefore the head, even as Christ is the head of the church. There is a resemblance of Christ’s authority over the church in that superiority and headship which God has appointed to the husband. The apostle adds, and he is the Saviour of the body. Christ’s authority is exercised over the church for the saving of her from evil, and the supplying of her with every thing good for her. In like manner should the husband be employed for the protection and comfort of his spouse; and therefore she should the more cheerfully submit herself unto him. So it follows, Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ (v. 24), with cheerfulness, with fidelity, with humility, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing—in every thing to which their authority justly extends itself, in every thing lawful and consistent with duty to God.

MATTHEW HENRY’S​

COMMENTARY​

ON THE OLD TESTAMENT​

​

PARSONS CHURCH GROUP​

​

A DIVISION OF FINDEX.COM​

​

Omaha Nebraska​

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An Exposition, with Practical Observations, of​

The First Book of Moses, Called Genesis​

Genesis 3:16



II. She is here put into a state of subjection. The whole sex, which by creation was equal with man, is, for sin, made inferior, and forbidden to usurp authority, 1 Tim. 2:11, 12. The wife particularly is hereby put under the dominion of her husband, and is not sui juris—at her own disposal, of which see an instance in that law, Num. 30:6-8, where the husband is empowered, if he please, to disannul the vows made by the wife. This sentence amounts only to that command, Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; but the entrance of sin has made that duty a punishment, which otherwise it would not have been. If man had not sinned, he would always have ruled with wisdom and love; and, if the woman had not sinned, she would always have obeyed with humility and meekness; and then the dominion would have been no grievance: but our own sin and folly make our yoke heavy. If Eve had not eaten forbidden fruit herself, and tempted her husband to eat it, she would never have complained of her subjection; therefore it ought never to be complained of, though harsh; but sin must be complained of, that made it so. Those wives who not only despise and disobey their husbands, but domineer over them, do not consider that they not only violate a divine law, but thwart a divine sentence.



If you read my other post above, I think that mutual submission is critical; however, in the ultimate order God ordained for families it goes—husband, wife, and children—in that order. I don’t believe that the man is smarter than his wife, nor more valuable than the man. Again, I believe that you can only have one person steer a vehicle and that “job” has been given to the man. I hold also to my point that in the vast majority of decisions that a household must make, you are almost always best served to have mutual agreement between the husband and wife. In many instances, it is usually best not to make a decision where you have disagreement. I also believe that if this subject comes up in a marriage, there may be a problem…Michael

 

[alaskamolly]

Yes, but there is a movement today that would like to believe "kaphale" means, 'head, as in SOURCE,' ie, the source of the river--translating that to mean the source of the woman was the man (she came out of his side), and NOT having anything to do with any authority position whatsoever.


Unfortunately for the egalitarian side, most Greek scholars find their 'translation' of kaphale inaccurate, but hey--as with all things--you believe what you want to believe, and no amount of arguing is going to fix it!


Personally, I think kaphale means what it says, both in context and in the actual Greek--Head, as in 'head' of the body, as in leader, as in one in authority.


I think it fits the nature and structure of God, too. When Jesus was on earth, we see Him clearly operating under the authority of His Father. He did not view authority as a negative thing--He understood the proper place and use of it.

Christ is most certainly the HEAD (as in, "authority") of His bride, is He not?
Eph.5 clearly says that the human marraige relationship is to PICTURE that of Christ and His Bride.

The egalitarian movement is essentially saying that Christ and His Bride are totally equal--that She is just as much in authority as He is.

Unfortunately, Scripture does not back this up. Sure, she is beautiful, she is made spotless, she is royal and majestic...but it's the name of JESUS that every knee shall bow to, not hers.


Blessings,
Molly

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Thanks guys for this discussion - especially getting back to the original greek - LOVE it when people do that...

The link someone placed here - yep that's the one (along with the headship one) I put in the 'naive dating' thread in here - I love that interpretation.

For those who believe in complete equality, and don't agree with this whole headship/submission thing - how do you make decisions in the marriage? I guess you could say it goes mutually, but what if something comes up where you both have different opinions? What do you go with then???

I'm not trying to put you down here, I believe we each take what we want from the Bible and apply that to our lives and have to stick firm to our decisions, but how does it work when there is no one person 'steering' the marriage?

Just interested to hear your side...

With my boyfriend and I, most of the time we find that deep down, we believe the same things, or slightly similar, so there hasn't been many times I've found something we're completely opposite in beliefs in. However, if we have to make a decision, and we each have good but differing opinions, I give the decision making over to him, and prevent myself from sulking over it, if he doesn't choose how I would have. He has the responsibility of leading this relationship (after God, of course), so his decision has to be one he will comfortable with. I know he'd never do anything deliberately to hurt me with that, so I can trust him when I give him the responsibility, IYKWIM....

Anyway, like to hear from the 'other' side of the fence now...

Sasch

 

[Leanna]

Sascha, what kinds of decisions do you not agree on and let him make?

I believe with several POV's from earlier about having a marriage where both decide things together. It actually works really well for my husband and I, and we never argue about decisions. The only things we argue about are communication and expectations issues! Never decisions. Both of us find it is best if we operate in our strengths. One of my strengths is leadership, no matter where I go or what I do. I get promoted at work because people automatically follow me. If I am with a group of friends they ask me where we are going. It is a little odd. At home, I am not the leader. But I am not the submitting wife either. We decide together and find that is the most loving relationship for us. It works, thats all I can say. And maybe it would work for you two also. Some people work better in the more traditional roles, like my in laws. You have to decide what is right for you.

 

[mghalpern]

Yes, but there is a movement today that would like to believe "kaphale" means, 'head, as in SOURCE,' ie, the source of the river--translating that to mean the source of the woman was the man (she came out of his side), and NOT having anything to do with any authority position whatsoever.


Unfortunately for the egalitarian side, most Greek scholars find their 'translation' of kaphale inaccurate, but hey--as with all things--you believe what you want to believe, and no amount of arguing is going to fix it!


Personally, I think kaphale means what it says, both in context and in the actual Greek--Head, as in 'head' of the body, as in leader, as in one in authority.


I think it fits the nature and structure of God, too. When Jesus was on earth, we see Him clearly operating under the authority of His Father. He did not view authority as a negative thing--He understood the proper place and use of it.

Christ is most certainly the HEAD (as in, "authority") of His bride, is He not?
Eph.5 clearly says that the human marraige relationship is to PICTURE that of Christ and His Bride.

The egalitarian movement is essentially saying that Christ and His Bride are totally equal--that She is just as much in authority as He is.

Unfortunately, Scripture does not back this up. Sure, she is beautiful, she is made spotless, she is royal and majestic...but it's the name of JESUS that every knee shall bow to, not hers.


Blessings,
Molly

Amen! Sister...Michael

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

So far, it's been really shallow ones, like buying a fridge (he went with mine at the end), or what to do with our day.

I guess what happens in 'normal' decision making is we'll have to make a decision about something, and we both say, well I think we should go with this, because yada yada yada. At the end though, I give him the final decision as it is, but usually it is a mutually decided on thing, that he ends up going, 'yep, I agree, let's go with that'.

There hasn't been anything yet that we've had a major disagreement on how something should be done...

So yeah, it's mutual decision making, but him making the final decision - if that makes any sense. As I said, anything that we've had differing opinions on that needs a final decision made, has been pretty shallow - like what particular type of item we should buy, etc...

When it's come down to serious 'marriage-related' discussions (ie finances, birth control forms, housing, etc), it's been completely mutual - a general bouncing-off of ideas with the final decision being made by him, that incorporates both my ideas and his.

Sasch

 

[mghalpern]

Sascha, what kinds of decisions do you not agree on and let him make?

I believe with several POV's from earlier about having a marriage where both decide things together. It actually works really well for my husband and I, and we never argue about decisions. The only things we argue about are communication and expectations issues! Never decisions. Both of us find it is best if we operate in our strengths. One of my strengths is leadership, no matter where I go or what I do. I get promoted at work because people automatically follow me. If I am with a group of friends they ask me where we are going. It is a little odd. At home, I am not the leader. But I am not the submitting wife either. We decide together and find that is the most loving relationship for us. It works, thats all I can say. And maybe it would work for you two also. Some people work better in the more traditional roles, like my in laws. You have to decide what is right for you.

Leanna... I'm not directly challenging your POV. Nothing I say will probably change it anyways. My only thought here is whether you can explain you position with scriptural reference, especially in light of the scriptures that have been quoted in this thread. I really am glad that you and your husband have a lot of peace between you when it comes to decision making, but I think in a Christian forum we should substantiate our views, or state that they are personal opiion and may be contrary to the Word...Michael

 

[bliz]

Bliz... That sounds great, but can you please give some practical detail on how a husband and wife "mutually submit to each other. Every book on marriage and every minister I hear who speak on the subject seem to agree about discussing everything, take each other's thoughts into account, but in the end, the husband is to make any final decisions. In other words, two people can't steer the vehicle. I've also heard many people sat that unless you come to an agreement, no decision should be made. I'm interested in hearing your practical wisdom...Michael

I'm not about to claim that we have always done it right or well, but here is how it has worked out for us. No, two people can't steer the vehicle. But they can take turns steering. Or, perhaps they should both sit in the back seat and let God steer the vehicle.

Mutually submission is messier than male domination; male dominiation is fairly quick and easy. Naturally we talk about things and know how we each feel about issues. There are, of course new issues all the time, and we sometimes change our views so we have to keep talking and go back over familiar territory.

Decisions rarely come down to "Who will decide which house we buy?" If we have together worked up a list of what we require and desire in a house, the choice will become fairly obvious in most cases. We have long ago hammered out our vision for child rearing. As issues come up, it's back to the vision. That way both of us can make decisions when we are not able to contact the other. With young children it has always struck me as slightly absurd that the husband is head of the household but the wife is the one who is home all day on the front lines.

Often, one of us or the other will know more about a particular subject. If I have done the research into cars, or schools or health insurance, (all real life examples from our marriage), he will usually defer to me. If it's an era where he is more knowledgable, it would be foolish for me to make a desicion.

Often decisions impact one of us more than the other. My husband has a garage that he has converted into a shop where he can work on projects. I am wise enough not to have any opinions at all on what he puts in the shop and how it is organized. One of these years we really will redo the kitchen in our house. My husband is a great idea man, but his culinary talents end at reheating leftovers. He may propose and explain the comparative costs of doing things one way over another, but he is wise enough to leave the final decisions to the one who will do most of the work in that room.

Sometimes one of us or the other simply cares more about an issue than the other. I did not feel that our eldest needed a car at age 16. I felt pretty strongly about it. My husband's Dad died long before my husband was old enough to drive, but they had always talked about what his first car would be like and what a responsibility and joy it was to have a car. He wanted to have the experience he'd missed out on with his Dad with our son. His need to do that with our son far outweighed my concerns about energy consumption and our consumer society and even my concerns about safety.

I think mutual submission works best when you really and fully believe that your spouse loves you and wants the best for you. Sometimes that takes years or decades into a marriage to reach that point. Sure, we all have selfish moments, but I know, like I now there is gravity, like I know God is, I know that my husband loves me. That allows me to trust him. So, when we have a minor disagreement over something, it is so much easier for me to let it go and not to question his motives or worry that my concerns will not be reflected in his decision.

Sometimes we are just in disagreement over an issue. Neither one of us has more interest or knowledge or emotional investment and we do not agree on how to proceed. In our marriage, this has not happened often. Less than 10 times in 28 years, I'd say, and right now I can only think of 3. We discuss, and research if applicaple, discuss again and then leave it go for a period of time to pray about it. Every time, one of us or the other has been ready to abandon our position and freely go with the other's wishes. It may take minutes... it has taken weeks. (It always takes longer when one of us is praying "God, change his/her mind!" instead of "Show me what you want us to do, Lord.")

Under mutual submission I am a full partner in the marriage. I am not ballast. I have responsibiliy, just as much responsibility for the marriage as my husband does. I can't sit back and say "It's up to him to be the spiritual leader." "He can decide what to do about the money." Nor can I dump on him and complain to him and leave it to him to find solutions. I think male headship actually encourages a complaining and petty wife. She can vent and leave the decisions up to him which is not really very helpful. As a full partner I cannot cop out and say "I did what my husband told me to do." to God. I will be held accountable for my own life, and obedience to my husband is not an excuse for not doing as God instructed me.

Hope this is helpful. If not, I'm game to take another stab at it!

 

[LiberatedChick]

The way I see it is that the husbands should lead but just because they are a leader doesn't mean they can't call on the advice of those more knowledgable. I work in a team at work and each team of people has a leader...it'd be chaos without one. However, the leader doesn't know everything and anything....the leader doesn't do all the experiments and analyse all the results. We do that so it's up to us to give the team leader the information they need to do there job and make the right decisions. I think it should be the same way for submission in a marriage. Submission doesn't mean the wife does everything the husband instructs like a puppy doing tricks..it doesn't mean she has no mind of her own or can't help steer the marriage and decisions. To me it means that she should advise her husband...if she is more knowledgable on a subject then she advises and gives the information that she knows and her opinion. It's still the husbands decision to make but of course he can't possibly be expected to make it without knowing the facts. So just like the team I'm in at work a marriage should be a team imo. There should be a leader who is given information and opinions of those in the team. The leader then forms there own opinion based on the information, checks it through and discusses it with the rest of the team before acting upon it. So to me submission isn't about a woman just blindly following orders or anything like that...it's about her giving her husband any information he needs on matters and then trusting him to form a good decision based upon it.

A recent example from my life when I didn't submit and let my husband make a decision....ended up in me panicking and worried and praying to God that the situation would be resolved quickly. Now I look back and think "What was I thinking?". My husband had already chosen a course of action a month ago and discussed it with me. I ummed and ahhed and dug my heels in thinking he was being hasty. That wasn't the case at all....he'd thought about the situation more than me and he had drawn a conclusion on the wisest option but I didn't submit and let him act on his conclusion. I just caused myself a heck of unnecessary worry over it. Though on the positive side I have been shown how important submission is in our relationship.

This quote, taken from the article post earlier on submission, sums up my view exactly.

God created husbands and wives to be a team. Husbands are the leader, but their input alone is not enough. The team needs your intelligence, your experience and your perspective also. Submission is choosing to step into agreement with God's structure of order and trusting Him to work it for everyone's good.

As a full partner I cannot cop out and say "I did what my husband told me to do." to God. I will be held accountable for my own life, and obedience to my husband is not an excuse for not doing as God instructed me.

A submitting wife can not cop out either. She can't not do what God instructs her to because God is the leader above all. If someone in authority wants her to do something that is against Gods word then she can't just do it and say "Oh but they told me to and as they are in authority I did it". She still has to obey God and if something someone (including her husband) wants her to do goes against Gods word then she can refuse to have any part of it.

 

[Cordy]

When I first got married (and while dating), I had simply accepted the females-submit-while-men-lead concept. I would voice my opinion and we would discuss, but in the end, we did what my husband wanted – he had the “final say”. Man! We made many mistakes because of it. My husband is an incredible guy, but he is still human. So many times my husband misunderstood the situation, or had an uninformed understanding of what do to. Most of the bumps we have experienced in our marriage took place because we were trying to fashion our marriage to the submission/leadership dichotomy relationship we have heard so many times in church.

I believe in the Bible. I believe it is God’s word to us. I want to live pleasing to God, and we pray that He will lead our lives and our marriage. Well, slowly, we began to discover some incredible truths deep in the Word. We have learned that many of the things we believed to be “straight from the Bible” are not actually based solely on the Word, but mixed from Greek and Roman culture, as well as other unbiblical sources. When studying the meaning and the context of the Bible, we have come to the understanding that the leadership/submission in marriage shouldn’t have to be an issue as it has become in the church. When both spouses are truly trying to submit to each other, and treating each other as equals, there is incredible unity and happiness in a marriage. One can easily see why we are all supposed to submit to one other as Ephesians tells us, and marriage is an incredible example of this.

We have since dropped the leadership/submissive concept from our marriage, and replaced it with simply focusing on submitting to one another and encouraging each other as individuals. We don’t fight. There is no need to. We know that we love each other enough that we will talk things through until we come to an understanding that we can both agree to. I think there is a reason why the Bible mentions that two are better than one. As individuals, we are limited in our understanding, in our scope of view etc. But together there are two minds working towards a common goal, and as a team we are able to come to much better solutions that if we simply settled for my husband’s decision. Sometimes our discussions are really short, and sometimes they are a little longer. Sometimes (and really only SOMETIMES) does it take a while for us to decide something. But in the end, our choices have proven to be much better than when we simply gave up working it out and said “ok, you’re the guy – decide”. That is our experience. It works, and we both believe we have a stronger marriage because of it