Inquiries into God's state before creation

[Kameaux]

Having read many different theological works about a wide variety of subjects, i've never come across a specific outlining of God's state prior to the creation of the universe. My main question relates to what the traditional perspective is on the degree to which God knew that He was going to create, and what He was going to create. Was the plan for creation with all it's events always there? And if yes, are there any councils that affirm this and/or any specific (early) theologians that deal with this topic?

 

[eleos1954]

Having read many different theological works about a wide variety of subjects, i've never come across a specific outlining of God's state prior to the creation of the universe. My main question relates to what the traditional perspective is on the degree to which God knew that He was going to create, and what He was going to create. Was the plan for creation with all it's events always there? And if yes, are there any councils that affirm this and/or any specific (early) theologians that deal with this topic?

God speaks of making plans both before the beginning and after the beginning.

Before creation there was communication, planning, and love within the members of the Trinity. After creation that communication and love was directed toward humanity.

so simply ... the 3 were delighting in one another's company (a family unit) and decided to extend that relationship to created beings. Only the 3 were involved in creation.

My main question relates to what the traditional perspective is on the degree to which God knew that He was going to create, and what He was going to create

Unknown. Beyond our understanding .... God pretty well goes over that in the book of Job
Job 38:4-7

Using His divine sarcasm ... but basically letting Job (and us know) regarding creation that it is beyond his/our understanding.

 

[Jonaitis]

Having read many different theological works about a wide variety of subjects, i've never come across a specific outlining of God's state prior to the creation of the universe. My main question relates to what the traditional perspective is on the degree to which God knew that He was going to create, and what He was going to create. Was the plan for creation with all it's events always there? And if yes, are there any councils that affirm this and/or any specific (early) theologians that deal with this topic?

How about the 'Covenant of Redemption'?

 

[David's Harp]

How about the 'Covenant of Redemption'?

I read this article on the Covenant of Redemption by RC Sproul: What Is the Covenant of Redemption?
I liked the first two paragraphs straight off:

A persistent tradition claims that upon being mocked by a skeptic with regard to his doctrine of creation, Saint Augustine was cynically asked, "What was God doing before He created the world? Augustine's alleged reply was: "Creating hell for curious souls."

The reply was, of course, tongue-in-cheek. The Bible doesn't speak of such a special work of divine creation before creation itself. But Augustine's bon mot had a serious point that warned against idle speculation of God's activity in eternity.

 

[SimonPeter111]

unless God tells us

 

[The Liturgist]

Having read many different theological works about a wide variety of subjects, i've never come across a specific outlining of God's state prior to the creation of the universe. My main question relates to what the traditional perspective is on the degree to which God knew that He was going to create, and what He was going to create. Was the plan for creation with all it's events always there? And if yes, are there any councils that affirm this and/or any specific (early) theologians that deal with this topic?

Welcome to traditional theology!

The basic perspective of the early church on this question I think is best understood that God is immutable, and does not change, and thus His plan has always been His plan. This is the consensus patrum of the Early Church.

 

[The Liturgist]

God speaks of making plans both before the beginning and after the beginning.

Before creation there was communication, planning, and love within the members of the Trinity. After creation that communication and love was directed toward humanity.

so simply ... the 3 were delighting in one another's company (a family unit) and decided to extend that relationship to created beings. Only the 3 were involved in creation.



Unknown. Beyond our understanding .... God pretty well goes over that in the book of Job
Job 38:4-7

Using His divine sarcasm ... but basically letting Job (and us know) regarding creation that it is beyond his/our understanding.

Welcome back to Traditional Theology! You raise a valid point in that the traditional churches do generally assert the Trinity to be a union of perpetual love.

There are two aspects of God we must consider, however: firstly, the Scriptural and Patristic doctrine of Divine Immutability. Thus, your post is correct in a sense, except one could argue that since God is eternal and created time, and since He was omniscient, whatever happened was not measurable according to time “before Creation.”

I read this article on the Covenant of Redemption by RC Sproul: What Is the Covenant of Redemption?
I liked the first two paragraphs straight off:

Indeed, it is amusing to think of an annoyed St. Augustine saying that. Welcome to Traditional Theology!

 

[eleos1954]

Welcome back to Traditional Theology! You raise a valid point in that the traditional churches do generally assert the Trinity to be a union of perpetual love.

There are two aspects of God we must consider, however: firstly, the Scriptural and Patristic doctrine of Divine Immutability. Thus, your post is correct in a sense, except one could argue that since God is eternal and created time, and since He was omniscient, whatever happened was not measurable according to time “before Creation.”

Indeed, it is amusing to think of an annoyed St. Augustine saying that. Welcome to Traditional Theology!

My understanding is that God is in no way constrained by time ... the very definition of eternity is ... no time.

so time was created for mankind by God with a purpose and that purpose was NOT to be applied to the universal as a whole .... just planet earth .... so with that .... anything outside of planet represents eternity .... with that also then makes the young earth a reality (of which I believe). Time began for us when God created it.

We will spend time in eternity (no time) yet in revelation there is a reference to time ... but once again that time has a purpose.

Revelation 2:7

New International Version
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 22

The River of Life - vision in heaven

1Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

yet ... will not be based on planet earth

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.

also a sabbath will be kept

Isaiah 66:23

22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

so ... once again .... time with a purpose

basically it seems it is back to Eden ultimately but for eternity .... Jesus being the tree of life ... but also then tree's that will be food for us .... God providing our spiritual needs as well as for our physical needs. Once again we will have access to the Tree(s) of Life and for eternity.

It makes sense to me anyways ;o)

 

[The Liturgist]

My understanding is that God is in no way constrained by time ... the very definition of eternity is ... no time.

Indeed, I think this is the Patristic doctrine.

so time was created for mankind by God with a purpose and that purpose was NOT to be applied to the universal as a whole .... just planet earth .... so with that .... anything outside of planet represents eternity .... with that also then makes the young earth a reality (of which I believe). Time began for us when God created it.

We will spend time in eternity (no time) yet in revelation there is a reference to time ... but once again that time has a purpose.

Revelation 2:7

New International Version
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 22

The River of Life - vision in heaven

1Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

yet ... will not be based on planet earth

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.

also a sabbath will be kept

Isaiah 66:23

22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

so ... once again .... time with a purpose

basically it seems it is back to Eden ultimately but for eternity .... Jesus being the tree of life ... but also then tree's that will be food for us .... God providing our spiritual needs as well as for our physical needs. Once again we will have access to the Tree(s) of Life and for eternity.

It makes sense to me anyways ;o)

I get where you are coming from, but it seems to me extremely problematic to say that time stops at the Earth’s atmosphere, since via telescopes we have seen objects hit the Earth, and if we pan out to the Milky Way we have detected supernovae, the collision of neutron stars producing gravitational waves, pulsars, which are extremely reliable timekeeping signals of the sort God promised to provide within the Heavens (indeed pulsars are pretty much the gold standard in terms of reliability; humans could not build a clock with such accuracy), and also we have objects which have left the solar system and they are still functional…just barely, and probably not for much longer, but for the moment at least the Voyager probes are still just barely ticking: Voyager - Mission Status

 

[eleos1954]

Indeed, I think this is the Patristic doctrine.



I get where you are coming from, but it seems to me extremely problematic to say that time stops at the Earth’s atmosphere, since via telescopes we have seen objects hit the Earth, and if we pan out to the Milky Way we have detected supernovae, the collision of neutron stars producing gravitational waves, pulsars, which are extremely reliable timekeeping signals of the sort God promised to provide within the Heavens (indeed pulsars are pretty much the gold standard in terms of reliability; humans could not build a clock with such accuracy), and also we have objects which have left the solar system and they are still functional…just barely, and probably not for much longer, but for the moment at least the Voyager probes are still just barely ticking: Voyager - Mission Status

well , my understanding from science is that the universe is continuously expanding ... so don't that represent eternity? (has no end).

We measure time (any kind) according to the earth ... why should those ways of calculating time be applied to the universe? How would time (if it exists) be calculated without planet earth?

How does the pulsar timing method work? (earth is still in the mix)
It's still taking in to account planet earth.

As they rotate, pulsars emit intense electromagnetic radiation that is detected on Earth as regular and precisely timed pulses, which are so regular they are more accurate than an atomic clock. Known pulsars have rates ranging from a few miliseconds to several seconds, depending on the speed of the star's rotation.

If there isn't a mind .... does time exist?

It is pretty mind boggling when you think about it ... lol

 

[The Liturgist]

well , my understanding from science is that the universe is continuously expanding ... so don't that represent eternity? (has no end).

The universe is believed to be accelerating at an increasing rate since the Big Bang about 13.8 million years ago, although the rate of acceleration has varied over time (see cosmic inflation, dark energy). Presently, the three possible end states for the universe recognized by most physicists entail either the universe stops expanding and falls back in on itself (the Big Crunch), it continues expanding at such a fast rate that in a quadrillion years, give or take a hundred trillion or so, it will be ripped apart (the Big Rip) or else it will continue to expand after the end of the Stelliferous Era in 100 trillion years, for another decillion years or so, until such time as all stellar remnants are consumed by black holes and all black holes then evaporate away into the void due to Hawking Radiation, leading to an undifferentiated realm of photons randomly whizzing about in a state of thermal equilibrium due to entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (the Heat Death of the Universe).*

Mind you, it is not unreasonable to expect God will have taken some action before that time, but at the same time, we don’t know for sure the mechanics of how He will accomplish the eschaton, and my faith is not threatened by a knowledge of either a possible end of the universe or the less ambiguous circumstances of its beginning (which I believe, and I recently read an Eastern Orthodox and an Anglican writer with the same opinion, that Genesis uniquely and miraculously among all the scriptures and sacred texts of the world provides a creation story in alignment with reality).

We measure time (any kind) according to the earth ... why should those ways of calculating time be applied to the universe? How would time (if it exists) be calculated without planet earth?

Well we do have a minimum unit of time, the Planck time, used in Quantum Mechanics, as well as a maximum velocity, the speed of light. So when you take these into consideration, and also factor in Doppler shifts, time can be measured. One thing to be aware of however is time dilation. Because of the Earth’s gravity, time moves slightly slower for us than it does for orbiting spacecraft (this is because gravity represents curves in the geometry of spacetime, and so wherever this curvature exists due to a massive object, time slows down).

How does the pulsar timing method work? (earth is still in the mix)
It's still taking in to account planet earth.

As they rotate, pulsars emit intense electromagnetic radiation that is detected on Earth as regular and precisely timed pulses, which are so regular they are more accurate than an atomic clock. Known pulsars have rates ranging from a few miliseconds to several seconds, depending on the speed of the star's rotation.

Well pulsars are also detectable from spacecraft, indeed, they are easier to detect in space than on the surface of the earth due to all of the natural and artificial interference from the geomagnetosphere, man made sources of electromagnetic radiation, etc.

If there isn't a mind .... does time exist?

It is pretty mind boggling when you think about it ... lol

* The end of the universe is of course speculative but is an extrapolation based on current observations, in contrast to the beginning, which is made known through the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation etc.

 

[eleos1954]

The universe is believed to be accelerating at an increasing rate since the Big Bang about 13.8 million years ago, although the rate of acceleration has varied over time (see cosmic inflation, dark energy). Presently, the three possible end states for the universe recognized by most physicists entail either the universe stops expanding and falls back in on itself (the Big Crunch), it continues expanding at such a fast rate that in a quadrillion years, give or take a hundred trillion or so, it will be ripped apart (the Big Rip) or else it will continue to expand after the end of the Stelliferous Era in 100 trillion years, for another decillion years or so, until such time as all stellar remnants are consumed by black holes and all black holes then evaporate away into the void due to Hawking Radiation, leading to an undifferentiated realm of photons randomly whizzing about in a state of thermal equilibrium due to entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (the Heat Death of the Universe).*

Mind you, it is not unreasonable to expect God will have taken some action before that time, but at the same time, we don’t know for sure the mechanics of how He will accomplish the eschaton, and my faith is not threatened by a knowledge of either a possible end of the universe or the less ambiguous circumstances of its beginning (which I believe, and I recently read an Eastern Orthodox and an Anglican writer with the same opinion, that Genesis uniquely and miraculously among all the scriptures and sacred texts of the world provides a creation story in alignment with reality).



Well we do have a minimum unit of time, the Planck time, used in Quantum Mechanics, as well as a maximum velocity, the speed of light. So when you take these into consideration, and also factor in Doppler shifts, time can be measured. One thing to be aware of however is time dilation. Because of the Earth’s gravity, time moves slightly slower for us than it does for orbiting spacecraft (this is because gravity represents curves in the geometry of spacetime, and so wherever this curvature exists due to a massive object, time slows down).

Well pulsars are also detectable from spacecraft, indeed, they are easier to detect in space than on the surface of the earth due to all of the natural and artificial interference from the geomagnetosphere, man made sources of electromagnetic radiation, etc.


* The end of the universe is of course speculative but is an extrapolation based on current observations, in contrast to the beginning, which is made known through the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation etc.

Thanks for the interesting information.

Even so ... takes a mind to comprehend it ;o)

Time is NOT real: Physicists show everything happens at the same time

 

[The Liturgist]

Thanks for the interesting information.

Even so ... takes a mind to comprehend it ;o)

Time is NOT real: Physicists show everything happens at the same time

Regarding the idea that “Time is not real,” that is really the media overhyping statements made by a few physicists desiring more funding. I mean, you find physicists and science reporters similarly overhyping the “holographic universe” idea, which is actually a simple theory that would bore most people were it not for the nifty title, basically, that one of the three spatial dimensions is a virtual dimension extruding from two spatial dimensions. If proven true, it would not mean that the universe was in any respect a contrivance. Even black holes, as fascinating as they are, caught the media’s attention only when a scientist coined the term “black hole” to refer to them in the late 1960s, but they had been predicted as far back as the 1790s (indeed an Anglican clergyman was the first to theorize that light might have a finite velocity and consequently there could be objects in space so massive that light could not escape from their gravitational pull; I assume he had this flash of insight in between the Litany and Ante-Communion).

 

[eleos1954]

Regarding the idea that “Time is not real,” that is really the media overhyping statements made by a few physicists desiring more funding. I mean, you find physicists and science reporters similarly overhyping the “holographic universe” idea, which is actually a simple theory that would bore most people were it not for the nifty title, basically, that one of the three spatial dimensions is a virtual dimension extruding from two spatial dimensions. If proven true, it would not mean that the universe was in any respect a contrivance. Even black holes, as fascinating as they are, caught the media’s attention only when a scientist coined the term “black hole” to refer to them in the late 1960s, but they had been predicted as far back as the 1790s (indeed an Anglican clergyman was the first to theorize that light might have a finite velocity and consequently there could be objects in space so massive that light could not escape from their gravitational pull; I assume he had this flash of insight in between the Litany and Ante-Communion).

I'm not buying it .... time is indeed an illusion .... if man didn't exist there would not be intelligence (a mind) to comprehend time .... also .... like earlier said .... time as we calculate it from planet earth can't/don't set the "clock" to zero .... unless one is to believe planet earth was the first thing that "evolved" in the universe ... nobody believes that.

God created time for man with a purpose ... and that purpose was not to calculate the age of the universe.

Job 38:4
New Living Translation
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. (ie .... nobody was there)

Lot's of theories about it .... but nobody knows.

 

[TedT]

My understanding is that God is outside of time. He created time itself.

Since time only measures change and the rate of change, there could be be NO Changes in the Trinity, no before or after, no then or next, ie, no conversation, before HE created time...an absurdity.

I know many who need this absurdity to make their theology hold water but then they blind themselves to the theology leaking like a sieve.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm not buying it .... time is indeed an illusion .... if man didn't exist there would not be intelligence (a mind) to comprehend time .... also .... like earlier said .... time as we calculate it from planet earth can't/don't set the "clock" to zero .... unless one is to believe planet earth was the first thing that "evolved" in the universe ... nobody believes that.

God created time for man with a purpose ... and that purpose was not to calculate the age of the universe.

Job 38:4
New Living Translation
“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. (ie .... nobody was there)

Lot's of theories about it .... but nobody knows.

If your view is that time does not pass unless someone observes its passage, I can understand it, although I don’t agree. Also, I don’t see why God would not want us to know the age of the Universe, especially given that study of the Big Bang suggests that the early universe was literally formless, given that it was devoid of matter, which provides scientific proof of the accuracy of Genesis 1:2. It is my personal belief that the accuracy of Genesis in describing what physics has determined about the origins of the universe is nothing short of a holy miracle, proving the veracity of sacred scripture. Indeed I wrote an article on the subject which you may enjoy. The Startling Accuracy Of Genesis

My understanding of the scientific concept of time being an illusion is that it relates to how antimatter can be understood, using Feynman diagrams, as time-reversed matter (and thus relates to CPT symmetry), and the idea is that time is our perception of entropy. Since electrons and positrons exist independent of observers, and radioactive materials decay independently of observation (the world’s helium supply is actually the result of radioactive elements emitting alpha particles, which are Helium nuclei). There are several members of the forum more learned in this area than myself, however.

I should stress by the way that we have segued into a topical area which is not per se Traditional Theology, and I greatly appreciate your respectful presence here in the Traditional Theology forum, so I just want to make sure you understand that what I am saying is not a required doctrinal belief of any of the traditional churches but rather my personal opinion on this area where science and theology converge. And usually, I take a Job-like approach of preferring not to mix theology and science; I do not regard the Bible as a science textbook. This particular subject matter happens to be something of an exception.

 

[TedT]

If your view is that time does not pass unless someone observes its passage, I can understand it, although I don’t agree.

No...

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Mount Sion is the location of the Angel's promised new heaven. God, the Holy Spirit, Christ and the 4 Beasts from the Re:4 Temple all called that place home before Ge:1:1 was spoken into existence:

Heb:12:18-23:
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched,
and that burned with fire,
nor unto blackness,
and darkness,
and tempest,
And the sound of a trumpet,
and the voice of words;
which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
(For they could not endure that which was commanded,
And if so much as a beast touch the mountain,
it shall be stoned,
or thrust through with a dart:
And so terrible was the sight,
that Moses said,
I exceedingly fear and quake
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[stevevw]

Having read many different theological works about a wide variety of subjects, i've never come across a specific outlining of God's state prior to the creation of the universe. My main question relates to what the traditional perspective is on the degree to which God knew that He was going to create, and what He was going to create. Was the plan for creation with all it's events always there? And if yes, are there any councils that affirm this and/or any specific (early) theologians that deal with this topic?

I don't think God there was a time before creation as in our conception of time. I don't think it was a case of whether God knew or planned creation as there was no time. I think these conceptions are part of our understanding of God and are expressions of who God is and has always been. We get glimpses of God in our experiences of the world but we cannot comprehended the total picture.

John 1-5 says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and that through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it".

So I think the idea of creation and life was part of God all along. It was an expression of God and I don't think we can put a time on it but rather understand or at least in part who God is and has always been. Hebrews 13:8, says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. So in Christ we know God (the Word made flesh) and what we see in Christ has always been who God is and how he thinks if we can even understand how God thinks. But perhaps get some small insight into God.

I don't think these revelations are about an evolving God who had a particular Mind set in the beginning and before creation but rather this is who God is and has always been. But as mortal beings we make these conceptions because that is our limited understanding.

I think just as creation and life was inherent in the birth of our universe and creation it was inherent from the beginning if you can say there was a beginning. So what we see today and have pondered over for millennia was always there and part of God. Maybe it was a natural expression of God.

I think creation and conscious life is an expression of Gods love and love can only be expressed to us as conscious beings. Creation, the universe and everything had to be there for us to happen and as Jeremiah 1:5 says God knew us before the foundations of the earth were made. In other words he knew that before creation itself.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't think God there was a time before creation as in our conception of time. I don't think it was a case of whether God knew or planned creation as there was no time. I think these conceptions are part of our understanding of God and are expressions of who God is and has always been. We get glimpses of God in our experiences of the world but we cannot comprehended the total picture.

John 1-5 says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and that through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it".

So I think the idea of creation and life was part of God all along. It was an expression of God and I don't think we can put a time on it but rather understand or at least in part who God is and has always been. Hebrews 13:8, says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. So in Christ we know God (the Word made flesh) and what we see in Christ has always been who God is and how he thinks if we can even understand how God thinks. But perhaps get some small insight into God.

I don't think these revelations are about an evolving God who had a particular Mind set in the beginning and before creation but rather this is who God is and has always been. But as mortal beings we make these conceptions because that is our limited understanding.

I think just as creation and life was inherent in the birth of our universe and creation it was inherent from the beginning if you can say there was a beginning. So what we see today and have pondered over for millennia was always there and part of God. Maybe it was a natural expression of God.

I think creation and conscious life is an expression of Gods love and love can only be expressed to us as conscious beings. Creation, the universe and everything had to be there for us to happen and as Jeremiah 1:5 says God knew us before the foundations of the earth were made. In other words he knew that before creation itself.

Indeed this is correct. It is traditional Christian faith that God is immutable, so God is the same now, always and forever.