Indwelling of the Spirit?

Major1

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Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond!



Thanks com7fy8. Is the ' quiet spirit' in 1 Peter referring to the Holy Spirit? I'm not arguing. I can understand how God finds a gentle and quiet spirit precious, I'm just not sure if the gentle spirit in this verse is more a description of our disposition.

Thanks I do see Romans 8:9 does expressly state the Spirit of God does indwell the believer, insofar as 'lives in you' is in the physical sense.
Reminds me of 1 Cor 6:19 " Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?"

You're right that I listen to too many evangelists. I drive a lot for work and have xms Sat radio so get to hear 5 sermons a day plus a lot of praise music. Too many sermons can be the opposite of uplifting when the messages are intended to reprove. A lot of times you end up feeling guilty.




This is more readily understandable to me. Is it me or is your message a little different. to paraphrase, have a Christ like outlook as revealed in the Word and you'll be 'walking in the Spirit. '


Thanks again everyone.

My dear brother. It is a blessing to speak with you and please know that There is nothing wrong with listening to radio sermons.

There is something wrong however if they are not teaching Bible doctrine but instead teaching "Denominational Theology".

I would suggest that you do a little background study on who you listen to and then narrow that list down to those who are Biblically sound and ignore the others.
 
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Major1

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Someone once formed a phrase out of the word Bible - Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

In this, one of the various assertions put forth by Romans 5 is the eternal security given the Believer by the Grace of God in His Son's full payment for sin at the Cross.

Because the Believer now has peace with God - as far as God is concerned.

Why?

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The Believer now has at-one-ment with God. He or she is now one with Him in His Son.

He or she is now saved from the wrath of God - not through the Believer's life, but through the Son's!

Amazing Grace, indeed!

Romans 6-8 then address various issues centured around the core issue of living under Grace as a son of God in His Son.

It starts that off with the issue of seeing how that given the fact that while you were yet a sinner Christ died for you, and how that upon your having trusted in His death for your sin; you were right then identified by the Spirit as one who has died Christ's death with Him; as one who was buried with Him; and as one who has risen in His newness of life with Him, and are now saved by His life - does this mean that now that you have eternal life, you can live anyway you want?

Its answer?

An emphatic "No!"

The clear implication of Romans 6-8 being that the Spirit's leading and or control in such matters is not automatic.

The clear implication being that the new Believer begins a life-long mind renewal process that obviously, the written Word has a chief role in.

The result being that those three chapters are written towards instruction in said righteousness as to how to Live under Grace.

Romans 12-16 then go into instruction in righteousness centered on the issue of how said mind renewal works through the written Word where learning how to Serve under Grace is concerned.

Obvious throughout is the need to keep one's nose in the written Word, the Spirit inspired those men to write.

Obvious throughout is that the Spirit works in the Believer through His Word resident in the Believer (through the Believer's having invested time in His Word).

Obvious throughout is that the Spirit renews the Believer's mind through His Word.

And that as and when, the Believer walks in said written Word by faith, he or she is walking in the Spirit.

He or she is walking in (an understanding through His Word...of what) the Spirit (would have him or her properly understand and walk in).

That is what walking in the Spirit refers to - to walking in an understanding of His written Word.

It refers to the Believer's having been INSTRUCTED in righteousness and how that works this side of the Cross.

Anything else is vain, or devoid of any real understanding of how God actually works in the Believer and is no better off then the lost praying on Sunday during a half-time that "God help" their "team to win" some sporting event.

Anything else is pagan; is basically idolatry.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Being renewed in the spirit of your mind is the issue.

The spirit of your mind refers to your overall outlook - to where you look at things from in general.

And having been raised in this fallen body in this fallen world; our minds and emotions and all the rest are apt to one thing only - to following the course of this world.

Which is why Believer's confuse "good" with the written Words view of "righteousness."

The issue then, is the issue of the need to constantly be after being just a bit more renewed in one's overall perspective to where the Believer's perspective is that of the Spirit's, as revealed by Him in His written Word.

Note how that even the Lord's earthly parents had had to be brought up to speed by that wonderously precious twelve year old...

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Note also, however, how that even that Wondrous Child had had to continue His Own intake and growing in an understanding of the things of the Father...

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

It is in His written Word that the Believer who invests time in His written Word learns "from Jesus" what it is the Believer is to put off, and what it is the Believer is to put on.

The Believer being a New Creature in Christ, it is the written Word that now instructs the Believer in the knowledge of Him that created him in His Son, the moment the Believer believed that Christ died for his or her sin.

Note how that these passages are all INSTRUCTION IN righteousness...and its source - the written Word.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

The acting on of which becomes "a cake walk" for the Believer who decides - in any moment - to look at all such issues through the lens of - "in memory of Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead!"

Try looking, say, at someone's having offended you - try looking at it and or them - "in memory of Romans 5: 6-8 - in EACH our STEAD..."

Try looking at all issues in light of that understanding there, in Romans 5: 6-8.

God's viewpoint.

Do that...

And you'll be walking - in Him.

You'll be walking in - the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

Very long response, but a very good response.
 
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com7fy8

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Thanks com7fy8. Is the ' quiet spirit' in 1 Peter referring to the Holy Spirit? I'm not arguing. I can understand how God finds a gentle and quiet spirit precious, I'm just not sure if the gentle spirit in this verse is more a description of our disposition.
The Holy Spirit changes our nature so we become gentle and quiet in spirit, in sharing with the Holy Spirit who in us is in union with us.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

It is the work of God's almighty power which joins someone to the Lord, then changes us to become gentle and quiet in His gentle and quiet love. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of this love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) doing this. Therefore, the Holy Spirit needs to be living in us, in order to share God's own love with us > right "in our hearts" > again, Romans 5:5. And we need how the Holy Spirit stays in union with our spirit, which is in us, in order to maintain us being gentle and quiet in God's own love.

So, yes the Holy Spirit does live in us and does have this effect, more and more as we grow in Jesus.
 
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Chris V++

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My dear brother. It is a blessing to speak with you
No, thank you.
It is the work of God's almighty power which joins someone to the Lord, then changes us to become gentle and quiet in His gentle and quiet love. And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of this love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) doing this. Therefore, the Holy Spirit needs to be living in us, in order to share God's own love with us > right "in our hearts" > again, Romans 5:5. And we need how the Holy Spirit stays in union with our spirit, which is in us, in order to maintain us being gentle and quiet in God's own love.

This does make sense and describes my experience. I think I m getting hung up on semantics. I know when Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit descended upon him which was described as if a Dove. The apostles received the spirit and started performing miracles. The early Christians apparently started bickering over the gifts of miracles, which generated this message in 1 Cor which seems was written specifically to them and maybe not to us?

'1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing........
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'

So what was done away?? The seemingly regular access to the miraculous gifts? Since that pastor planted that seed had me questioning indwelling, or at least a perpetual indwelling, I wondered if the indwelling Spirit was what was 'done away' and the 'that which is perfect is come' is in fact the Bible, which is perfect.

In my own experience in worship with other believers I can actually feel and discern the overpowering presence of what I assume to be the Holy Spirit in the room more so than when worshipping alone. Like all believers I do have those awesome 'mountain top' experiences as well.


Thank you Major com7ft8 and everyone who responded. This feels like real fellowship. I think I have a better handle on this subject. Thanks again!

Today's pastor's radio broadcast preached about how anxiety is really sinful. We shouldn't have anxiety. Oh great, here we go again. Anxiety is my middle name :) Now I'm going to be anxious about having anxiety. Just kidding. Thanks again. Blessings!!
 
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I know at times I can 'feel' the Spirit and especially in worship service. I also know the conscience convicts. I've heard pastors say that conviction of conscience is evidence of the indwelling spirit.
There are various views. In cases like this, I prefer to think people are overthinking it all.

The Holy Spirit is God. He indwells us, sometimes more and sometimes less. Sometimes we "feel" his presence; sometimes he works his divine "magic" unknown to us. As we call out to God we should expect he hears and responds.
 
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Major1

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No, thank you.


This does make sense and describes my experience. I think I m getting hung up on semantics. I know when Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit descended upon him which was described as if a Dove. The apostles received the spirit and started performing miracles. The early Christians apparently started bickering over the gifts of miracles, which generated this message in 1 Cor which seems was written specifically to them and maybe not to us?

'1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing........
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'

So what was done away?? The seemingly regular access to the miraculous gifts? Since that pastor planted that seed had me questioning indwelling, or at least a perpetual indwelling, I wondered if the indwelling Spirit was what was 'done away' and the 'that which is perfect is come' is in fact the Bible, which is perfect.

In my own experience in worship with other believers I can actually feel and discern the overpowering presence of what I assume to be the Holy Spirit in the room more so than when worshipping alone. Like all believers I do have those awesome 'mountain top' experiences as well.


Thank you Major com7ft8 and everyone who responded. This feels like real fellowship. I think I have a better handle on this subject. Thanks again!

Today's pastor's radio broadcast preached about how anxiety is really sinful. We shouldn't have anxiety. Oh great, here we go again. Anxiety is my middle name :) Now I'm going to be anxious about having anxiety. Just kidding. Thanks again. Blessings!!

It is my honor to speak with you and to be so well received by you.
 
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com7fy8

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The early Christians apparently started bickering over the gifts of miracles, which generated this message in 1 Cor which seems was written specifically to them and maybe not to us?

'1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing........
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'

So what was done away??
Before we get into what is done away or was done away, we might evaluate what it is which is "perfect".

Yes, God's word is perfect. And His word will perfectly "accomplish" all which God perfectly desires > Isaiah 55:11. Without the Holy Spirit in us, by the way, we can not share with God in this, of our own ability; so we need the Holy Spirit indwelling, all the time, to change us to fulfill all which God means by His word . . . especially His love meaning, in us.

God's love is perfect. And you might consider how the attention with this scripture is especially to how love is, and love is perfect. And makes us perfect > 1 John 4:17-18.

This includes how Jesus being formed in us as our new inner Person is perfect > Galatians 4:19.

And Jesus is the Word of God. He is perfect, and He is coming.

Also, perfect can be the whole Bride of Jesus, at His coming.

Gifts can still help us to become more mature and perfected in love and in Jesus. 1 Peter 4:9-10 says we can use our gifts to minister God's own grace to one another. I personally understand that grace includes how God acts in us to make us more like Jesus, more and more growing in His love. This is in us, by the way, and this is what the Holy Spirit keeps doing in us, therefore continually indwelling us in order to keep changing us, by grace, to become more like Jesus. So, gifts are still needed, not only to help us get knowledge and outward miracles, but deeper to effect our nature with God's own grace.

A part, by the way, can be done away by becoming included in a perfect whole . . . like a puzzle piece being done away by being fitted into a puzzle, or an egg being done away by being blended in cake batter. As we grow in God's love and His creativity, our parts of knowledge and other things become included in how love has us knowing and doing things. The parts are no longer isolated, like toys here and there on the rug, but love brings them into the perfect whole with love meaning so better than how we as children were able to understand and do things.

I wondered if the indwelling Spirit was what was 'done away' and the 'that which is perfect is come' is in fact the Bible, which is perfect.
I think my explanation above can offer something to help us with this question.
 
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com7fy8

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In my own experience in worship with other believers I can actually feel and discern the overpowering presence of what I assume to be the Holy Spirit in the room more so than when worshipping alone. Like all believers I do have those awesome 'mountain top' experiences as well.
By yourself, you are a part, but in group worship you all are together in what is more and perfect :) But how you are blessed in group worship is a sample-example of how you can be, all the time . . . because of the Holy Spirit continuing in you to keep you so blessed. So, yes it is God's will that we have the Holy Spirit in us, all the time . . . in our character of His love. And then while we are alone, we also can have a time of special blessing during prayer, but this needs to be our standard of how we can keep on being with God all through the day . . . prayerful in the Holy Spirit > Jude 20-21 < God wants us to pray in the Holy Spirit, in His love. So, yes God does want us to have the Holy Spirit in us, all the time.
 
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Major1

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Before we get into what is done away or was done away, we might evaluate what it is which is "perfect".

Yes, God's word is perfect. And His word will perfectly "accomplish" all which God perfectly desires > Isaiah 55:11. Without the Holy Spirit in us, by the way, we can not share with God in this, of our own ability; so we need the Holy Spirit indwelling, all the time, to change us to fulfill all which God means by His word . . . especially His love meaning, in us.

God's love is perfect. And you might consider how the attention with this scripture is especially to how love is, and love is perfect. And makes us perfect > 1 John 4:17-18.

This includes how Jesus being formed in us as our new inner Person is perfect > Galatians 4:19.

And Jesus is the Word of God. He is perfect, and He is coming.

Also, perfect can be the whole Bride of Jesus, at His coming.

Gifts can still help us to become more mature and perfected in love and in Jesus. 1 Peter 4:9-10 says we can use our gifts to minister God's own grace to one another. I personally understand that grace includes how God acts in us to make us more like Jesus, more and more growing in His love. This is in us, by the way, and this is what the Holy Spirit keeps doing in us, therefore continually indwelling us in order to keep changing us, by grace, to become more like Jesus. So, gifts are still needed, not only to help us get knowledge and outward miracles, but deeper to effect our nature with God's own grace.

A part, by the way, can be done away by becoming included in a perfect whole . . . like a puzzle piece being done away by being fitted into a puzzle, or an egg being done away by being blended in cake batter. As we grow in God's love and His creativity, our parts of knowledge and other things become included in how love has us knowing and doing things. The parts are no longer isolated, like toys here and there on the rug, but love brings them into the perfect whole with love meaning so better than how we as children were able to understand and do things.

I think my explanation above can offer something to help us with this question.

I am afraid that this is a subject which we will not know for sure its meaning until Jesus comes.

IMO, 1 Cor. 13:8-13 argues strongly that the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have ended, for the church now has the mature and perfect revelation of God, the completed Bible. No other knowledge about God and our Savior is gained apart from that perfect Word.

If we believe Paul’s teaching and predictions about the gifts, (that they are by nature childish, incomplete, and passing away), and we believe that the completed revelation of God is the Bible, we must conclude that the early revelatory gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have ceased. The fact that this was indeed the testimony of the early and historic church — that those gifts ceased to be part of the church’s experience very soon after the age of the apostles ended — seals the deal.

When Paul later wrote, “Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues” (1 Cor. 14:39), the application of the verse is mitigated by the prediction Paul had just made that the spiritual gifts of prophecy and tongues “will be done away…will cease” (1 Cor. 13:8).

As long as the spiritual gifts of prophecy and tongues (and knowledge) continued to operate, they were not to be forbidden. But when the “complete” thing comes, the Corinthians understood that those gifts would discontinue, since they were by nature incomplete and childish, and superceded by what is complete and mature (the canon). This is exactly what happened in the post-apostolic church.

The church — indeed, the Holy Spirit — “put away” the “childish” revelatory gifts of tongues, knowledge, and prophecy in favor of the completed canon (the perfect and inspired words of the Holy Spirit), and the clear, mature, and comprehensive knowledge of God it provides. The church’s knowledge of God is not perfect in the sense that it is perfectly apprehended. It is perfect in the sense that it is complete.
What Is the “Perfect” Thing in 1 Corinthians 13:10?
 
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'When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money ' Acts 8: 18
Years ago I heard a radio pastor state that Acts 8:18 should be interpreted that an actual Apostle had to lay on hands to give over the Spirit, and nowhere is it written that the Spirit was transferable. In other words, a recipient of the Spirit received from an Apostle laying on of hands couldn't then transfer the Spirit that to a third party. This pastor stated the apostles (by the indwelt Spirit) were able to perform miracles, speak in different languages etc., and that today there is no actual Spirit indwelling or possessing the believer.

Same pastor also had what seems like an unconventional interpretation of this scripture:
'Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' Acts 2:38

His interpretation was that the 'gift' of the Holy Spirit is 'salvation,' and that the Holy Spirit isn't the 'gift.'
He backed up this position with:
' For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God..." Ephesians 2:8
His point was that the 'salvation' is the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I would like to believe that you had possibly misheard the individual in question. But if you did in fact hear him correctly then he is obviously one very confused and bewildered individual.

Then today I heard a popular radio pastor state there is a difference between being 'filled with the Spirit' and the Spirit dwelling within. You can have the an indwelling of the Holy Spirit but at the same time not be filled with the Spirit.
As I haven't read through this thread, I trust that someone has already pointed out that this is the position of the Assemblies of God, where it reflects the old classic-Pentecostal understanding of the two-stage reception of the Holy Spirit; this is known as the Subsequence viewpoint - of which I disagree with.
 
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Major1

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I would like to believe that you had possibly misheard the individual in question. But if you did in fact hear him correctly then he is obviously one very confused and bewildered individual.


As I haven't read through this thread, I trust that someone has already pointed out that this is the position of the Assemblies of God, where it reflects the old classic-Pentecostal understanding of the two-stage reception of the Holy Spirit; this is known as the Subsequence viewpoint - of which I disagree with.

And of course the answer is that he is both "confused and bewildered".

I am very encouraged to see that you disagree with the "Subsequence viewpoint".
 
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Chris V++

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As I haven't read through this thread, I trust that someone has already pointed out that this is the position of the Assemblies of God, where it reflects the old classic-Pentecostal understanding of the two-stage reception of the Holy Spirit; this is known as the Subsequence viewpoint - of which I disagree with.
Maybe not 'filled with the Spirit' is this context was more a statement about a believer's disposition. e.g. Not thinking or behaving like a vessel of the indwelling Spirit.

By yourself, you are a part, but in group worship you all are together in what is more and perfect :) But how you are blessed in group worship is a sample-example of how you can be, all the time . . . because of the Holy Spirit continuing in you to keep you so blessed. So, yes it is God's will that we have the Holy Spirit in us, all the time . . . in our character of His love
It's illuminating to think of 'perfect' as more 'complete.' That would explain the ramp up of intensity during worship service.
 
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Major1

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Maybe not 'filled with the Spirit' is this context was more a statement about a believer's disposition. e.g. Not thinking or behaving like a vessel of the indwelling Spirit.

It's illuminating to think of 'perfect' as more 'complete.' That would explain the ramp up of intensity during worship service.

The word there in the Greek is "Teleios" and It means ......."mature/complete".

Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary
Result 1- Final, Finally
A. Nouns
B. Adverb
Heb 6:16, RV, "an oath is final for confirmation" (the AV connects the clauses differently). See END.

See also : peras 1 Pet 3:8. See END.

See also : telios

B1. Final, Finally [Adverb] loipon is the neuter of the adjective loipos, remaining (which is used in its different genders as a noun, "the rest"), and is used either with the article or without, to signify "finally," lit., "for the rest." The Apostle Paul uses it frequently in the concluding portion of his epistle.
 
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And of course the answer is that he is both "confused and bewildered".
I am very encouraged to see that you disagree with the "Subsequence viewpoint".

I wasn't familiar with Subsequence Viewpoint so I looked it up:

"According to the Assemblies of God statement of fundamental truths:
All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise ofthe Father, the baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4, 8; I Corinthians 12:1-31). This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth (Acts 8:12-17; 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9)."

So if no apparent 'bestowment of gifts' is present in a believer's life is it the AOG view that that beliver is not a true Christian? I 've been told that before by a former colleague who was a pastor but didn't now if it was that just that individual's interpretation or a blanket denominational doctrine.
 
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Major1

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I wasn't familiar with Subsequence Viewpoint so I looked it up:

"According to the Assemblies of God statement of fundamental truths:
All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise ofthe Father, the baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4, 8; I Corinthians 12:1-31). This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth (Acts 8:12-17; 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9)."

So if no apparent 'bestowment of gifts' is present in a believer's life is it the AOG view that that beliver is not a true Christian? I 've been told that before by a former colleague who was a pastor but didn't now if it was that just that individual's interpretation or a blanket denominational doctrine.

I think that If you look a little deeper into this you will find that it is the Spirit baptism, not water baptism, that unites a sinner with Christ. There are a few verses that teach this fact, but unfortunately they often get applied to water baptism, even though water is never mentioned.

It is clear from 1 Corinthians 12:13 and these other verses that the "Spirit baptism" is an essential component of the whole salvation package. Pentecostals would agree with this assertion. Now the question is, Is speaking in tongues the universally expected, initial evidence of this baptism? Pentecostal adherents would say.......... Yes.

An excellent informational site is found at The Gospel According to Oneness Pentecostalism
 
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Major1

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Contrary to what is taught and most Christians believe, the Word, (Grk- Logos)is not your bible.

John1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Read the above, and if you believe that "the word" refers to the scriptures or your bible, then you have made your bible to be the God of all creation who made the planets and Adam etc.
If you think a book has that power............?

Who at creation was with God, and was also God other than Christ himself?

If you read the rest of John1 you will see very clearly that God as Christ, not the scriptures, is the word of God.

Yes, you are correct IMO.

Isn't it funny that Jesus was the WORD of God and everything Jesus said was the "Word of God".

IMO, CONTEXT is the determining factor..

It should be an obvious point that words or phrases can, quite comfortably, have more than one proper use, or an expanded lexical range. For example, the phrase “God’s will” can refer to God’s will of command expressed in his explicit commands, but it can also refer to God’s will of decree by which he governs history.

Both meanings are appropriately designated by that phrase, and context will usually clarify any confusion on that point. It ought to be uncontroversial to say the same thing is true of the phrase “the Word of God.” At the most straightforward level, the phrase “The word of God” just means “a word God has spoken.”

We find hundreds of references to God’s speech (“the word of the Lord came to”) littered throughout the canon, whether in the Law, the prophets, or the wisdom literature. Every time God spoke to Moses, he heard “the word of God.” Every time a prophet prophesied and used the phrase “Thus says the Lord”, they were speaking the “word of God.”

If Jesus is the ‘Word of God’ Can We Call the Bible the Word of God?
 
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Danoh

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Very long response, but a very good response.

Yeah; I do tend to be long winded.

At the same time, where these issues are concerned, there is a lot to be long winded about...

Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

Lol

By the way - that is one beautiful family you have there!

Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each - our stead!
 
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Biblicist

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The early Christians apparently started bickering over the gifts of miracles, which generated this message in 1 Cor which seems was written specifically to them and maybe not to us?
Contrary to much populist opinion, we do not actually find any details regarding how the Corinthian Christians supposedly bickered over the "spiritual gifts", where in fact, from what we can tell from Paul's Epistles to the Corinthians they appeared to understand them quite well, other than with how they would all begin to worship the Father in the Spirit all at once during their congregational meeting times - Paul absolutely forbids this, which is the purpose with much of 1 Cor 14.

What we do find, particularly from 1 Cor 11 is with how those of wealth and prestige were abusing those who were not as influential as they were. This would have produced other unintended problems where the influential would have been jealous of how the Holy Spirit was working mightily through those who were not as influential and wealthy. We see this today not only within Pentecostal congregations but particularly within cessationist assemblies where their members can be easily aroused to jealousy and outrage when the Holy Spirit works through others and not them.

Anxiety is my middle name :) Now I'm going to be anxious about having anxiety. Just kidding. Thanks again. Blessings!!
Don’t worry . . . as they like to say, “We only have fear itself to fear”, but of course they tend to fail to mention that fear can be a bit scary at times.

On a more positive note, when it comes to fear, this is something that is legitimate even for the Christian to experience; for instance, who exactly feels all that happy when a large hole appears under their feet in a plane when they’re travelling at a 1000 km per hours at 10,000 metres? It’s not always the falling through that can create fear within us, but with the process of how we might have to slowly go through a very jagged hole!

On the other hand, anxiety is a different creature as this reflects more of an irritational fear that is not based on empirical facts. For instance, with the hole suddenly appearing at our feet, we can be justified in thinking “Oh dear, this does not look all that good”, whereas a person who suffers from anxiety will probably repeatedly scream out “We are all going to die – we are all going to die”, where their fellow passengers might be inclined to hope that the person who is suffering from this spell of anxiety falls through the hole just to keep them quiet.

So, fear is not only okay but it can be healthy, whereas anxiety is probably rarely healthy.
 
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Biblicist

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Before we get into what is done away or was done away, we might evaluate what it is which is "perfect".
As to the meaning of to teleion in 1Cor 13:10, since maybe the late 70’s, the view that it refers to the Canon of Scripture, or to the completion of the last Book of the Bible or to the death of the last Apostle-of-Christ, where the Canon perspective is only a recent understanding of the passage, has become primarily the domain of those who reside primarily within the old-school forms of Reformed theology and Calvinism.

The more astute Evangelical cessationist will reject the Canon perspective for one that is more philosophical. In fact, the rather unimaginative Canon position is somewhat of an embarrassment for the more academic cessationist who seems to wish that it would go away as it continues to undermine the cessationist world-view; which in my opinion is a good thing!

Whenever we encounter an Evangelical, especially one that purports to being an Arminian and not an old-school Calvinist, if they state that they believe in the Canon of Scripture perspective, we can then reply to them by saying “You haven’t really thought this through, have you?”
 
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I wasn't familiar with Subsequence Viewpoint so I looked it up:
This has been the position of the AoG since its very foundation (but more so within English speaking countries), in that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is supposed to be received sometime after our initial salvation-experience; which could be hours, days, weeks or years later.

In more recent times, most within the AoG have recognised that the BHS could occur seconds after our initial Salvation (thus, subsequence); this could probably be deemed to be a begrudging acknowledgement on their part that the BHS occurs at the moment of our Salvation without them having to admit to this – well, at least in my opinion!

Historically speaking, the Church has viewed the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as being soteriological which means that it occurs at our moment of Salvation-conversion, where each and every Believer receives the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The problem with the older understanding is that it fail to recognise that every Believer can be empowered to pray in the Spirit (tongues).

Having said this, up until about five years back, as with quite a few million other people, I accepted the subsequence understanding as this is how our reception of the Holy Spirit seemed to occur for us, but this was more an accident of history so to speak.

The Pentecostal movement has always been proud of its Holiness heritage, but from within this heritage, which was proud of its own two-stage reception understanding of the Holy Spirit, the Pentecostals took this on board as well, where some even developed a three-stage understanding, which incorporated the addition of Holiness along with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

What we all failed to realise was that the Scriptures speak of our Salvation experience as being synonymous with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, where our ability to pray In the Spirit (tongues) was to be the normal experience for the new Christian.

As these new fledgling Pentecostals of the early 1900’s began to embrace the fullness of the Holy Spirit along with the evidence of speaking in tongues, as this had been essentially lost for centuries, they simply presumed that it was supposed to be something that occurred sometime after we were first Born Again and sealed with the Spirit.
 
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