Incest: culture and socialization

[amie]

Hi everyone
I was curious to your views on Incest. And when I ask for your perspectives, I am asking whether or not you believe the act of incest is immoral (I certainly do) and if so, do you think that belief stems from your socialization or do you think it is possible that humans are instictively opposed to incestual acts? Aside from birth defects do you believe there may be emotional problems involved?

The view sociologically is that our behaviors are due to our socialization and this is one of the taboos of our culture. However in some cultures it is socially acceptable, and at one time was even required. The ancient Egyptians as well as the Incas actually required brother/sister marriages for their nobility in blood lines. Some groups also allow sex between father and daughters. The Thonga tribe in Africa permit a hunter to have sex with his daughter before going on a lion hunt and another African tribe, the Azande permits nobles to marry their own daughters (noble blood) Coincidentally a similar tribe in Africa believes when a son is impotent, it is vital for his birth mother to have sexual intercourse with him to cure him of his "ailment"

Now follow along the history of the Ptolemies who ruled Egypt during the Hellinistic Age. It all came down to "noble blood"

The first siblings to marry were ArsinoeII to her half brother Ptolemy. They had a bad start, he murdered his new wife's(half sister) two sons by her previous marriage the day of the wedding. He was killed in battle shortly after that and she fled to Egypt where she partcipated in a full sibling marriage and married her younger brother PtolemyII. This marriage gave them the heir PtolemyIII who defied custom and married a half cousin instead of a sibling thus producing PtolemyIV who married his full sister ArsinoeIII. Their child PtolemyV had to "marry out" since he had no sister. However his two sons each married their sister KleopatraII in succession...The next heir PtolemyVI died after marrying his sister so her brother PtolemyVII was brought in to take his place, thus producing another offspring...PtolemyVIII married his niece(stepdaughter) KleopatraIII. One of their sons, PtolemyIX married not one, but two of his sisters in succession which was sort of greedy considering his brother PtolemyX had to settle for a niece. After the death of PtolemyX, his son PtolemyXI married the same woman who was wed to his father(his cousin and STEPMOM) Their heir, PtolemyXII, the father of the famous Kleopatra(KleopatraVII) was married to either a full or half sister(no one knows for sure whether it was Kleopatras birth mother) Kleopatra herself most likely married both of her brothers in succession, but each died early before gaining any dominance over her. None of her children were fathered by a brother.

Now thats a hell of a lot of incest! Did any of these people really love each other? who knows, however it was "normal" for them. They were raised for this particular lifestyle, not wanting to "go outside their kind" This was the only life they knew...

So while I think incest is an immoral act, I do acknowledge the societal implications on the subject to play a big part, along with family upbringing, culture, code of ethics, and what not. I could not imagine myself ever becoming sexually attracted to one of my brothers. EVER.
So does it come down to social acceptance to conform to our cultures? I think yes.
Any thoughts?
Amie~

 

[Marcel]

There was also a time and place, where gladiator fights were "socially" acceptable. "Everybody else is doing it" isn't much of a basis for morality though.

I'm curious to see what others will say. Tricky topic lieverd.

 

[amie]

Marcel
There are many things that shape our morality so yes the "everyone is doing it" does not make a basis...

and whats pray tell is wrong with the gladiator fights??

 

[Marcel]

Marcel
There are many things that shape our morality so yes the "everyone is doing it" does not make a basis...

and whats pray tell is wrong with the gladiator fights??

Yeah, it's just good wholesome bloody fun right

To me morality is a matter of not carelessly undermining the quality of life of others, and empathy. Those examples of people being obliged to have sex with such and so within the family definately don't make the cut. And that's just because depriving someone of the freedom to decide for themself who they do/don't have sex with, is the undermining of the quality of someone's life... that's without mentioning the blatant disregard of potential mental harm.

 

[amie]

...but to them that was the norm, all they ever knew...

but still I wonder what life was like for them. It is unfortunate that they were not able to make their own choices, marry who they wanted and so on and so forth...

 

[Jet Black]

To me morality is a matter of not carelessly undermining the quality of life of others, and empathy.

because that is what everybody else thinks

 

[amie]

Touche

 

[Marcel]

Indeed

 

[brie]

Hi everyone
I was curious to your views on Incest. And when I ask for your perspectives, I am asking whether or not you believe the act of incest is immoral (I certainly do) and if so, do you think that belief stems from your socialization or do you think it is possible that humans are instictively opposed to incestual acts? Aside from birth defects do you believe there may be emotional problems involved?

The view sociologically is that our behaviors are due to our socialization and this is one of the taboos of our culture. However in some cultures it is socially acceptable, and at one time was even required. The ancient Egyptians as well as the Incas actually required brother/sister marriages for their nobility in blood lines. Some groups also allow sex between father and daughters. The Thonga tribe in Africa permit a hunter to have sex with his daughter before going on a lion hunt and another African tribe, the Azande permits nobles to marry their own daughters (noble blood) Coincidentally a similar tribe in Africa believes when a son is impotent, it is vital for his birth mother to have sexual intercourse with him to cure him of his "ailment"

Now follow along the history of the Ptolemies who ruled Egypt during the Hellinistic Age. It all came down to "noble blood"

The first siblings to marry were ArsinoeII to her half brother Ptolemy. They had a bad start, he murdered his new wife's(half sister) two sons by her previous marriage the day of the wedding. He was killed in battle shortly after that and she fled to Egypt where she partcipated in a full sibling marriage and married her younger brother PtolemyII. This marriage gave them the heir PtolemyIII who defied custom and married a half cousin instead of a sibling thus producing PtolemyIV who married his full sister ArsinoeIII. Their child PtolemyV had to "marry out" since he had no sister. However his two sons each married their sister KleopatraII in succession...The next heir PtolemyVI died after marrying his sister so her brother PtolemyVII was brought in to take his place, thus producing another offspring...PtolemyVIII married his niece(stepdaughter) KleopatraIII. One of their sons, PtolemyIX married not one, but two of his sisters in succession which was sort of greedy considering his brother PtolemyX had to settle for a niece. After the death of PtolemyX, his son PtolemyXI married the same woman who was wed to his father(his cousin and STEPMOM) Their heir, PtolemyXII, the father of the famous Kleopatra(KleopatraVII) was married to either a full or half sister(no one knows for sure whether it was Kleopatras birth mother) Kleopatra herself most likely married both of her brothers in succession, but each died early before gaining any dominance over her. None of her children were fathered by a brother.

Now thats a hell of a lot of incest! Did any of these people really love each other? who knows, however it was "normal" for them. They were raised for this particular lifestyle, not wanting to "go outside their kind" This was the only life they knew...

So while I think incest is an immoral act, I do acknowledge the societal implications on the subject to play a big part, along with family upbringing, culture, code of ethics, and what not. I could not imagine myself ever becoming sexually attracted to one of my brothers. EVER.
So does it come down to social acceptance to conform to our cultures? I think yes.
Any thoughts?
Amie~

I would say that incest is definitely immoral, and my opinions are probably due to my socialization. What I think is wrong with incest doesn't have much to do with the reproductive problems, though. As horribly judgmental as this might sound, I think that familial relationships should not cross the line of intimacy. Example, I have had two stepbrothers since I was 3, and we have been raised together in the same house. IMO, anything beyond a brotherly/sisterly relationship between us would be incest (and disgusting ) , even though we aren't blood related.
So I would have to agree with you Amie, that we conform to our cultures. (Though I really hate the idea that had I been raised differently, I could have possibly been attracted to either of my brothers. )

 

[Magisterium]

For christians, the reason should be that it is strictly forbidden by the old and new testaments. Modern man (and woman) seem to think that everything is subject to his (or her) limited reasoning. Perhaps the most important part of Christianity is obedience. I know, I said the "O" word. However, simply thinking rationally, one must admit that even if a man (or woman) were to spend every waking moment of their life engaged in the observation and discernment of right and wrong, they could not in a lifetime aquire all the necessary knowledge let alone wisdom to make very many decisions based solely upon what they learned. Particularly because the effects of many actions and practices are not evident for generations to come. That said being true, to some extent obedience is absolutely necessary in order to preserve order. In the case of Christianity, we understand that it is God's divine law which we follow. though we cannot always (or even usually) see the reasons for the rules, we follow them and trust in God's guidance (faith). Also for the record, even as late as the fall of Rome, pagan peoples of the world regarded incest as a social and cultural norm. It is almost exclusively a Judeo-Christian understanding that incest is contrary to the divine (and therefore also the natural) order.

 

[LaserCool]

Well, apparently incest was quite common in the Old Testament. I especially like this one:

"And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him.... And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." Gen.19:30-36

I think the incest taboo is a later development in human history, and one that develops out of the recognition of birth defects i.e. genetic instability.

I take this wholly seperate from the issue of having sex with a child, incest being consentual sex with adult close blood-relations.

Interestingly, age-taboos were not the same historically as they were in the past. Most previous cultures looked at the onset of mestruation as being the age of sexual "adulthood" for women, with a similar attitude toward sexul adulthood with young men, of course withot menstuation.

But ultimately, I see nothing inherently wrong with related peoples of legal age having sex for its own sake. Rather unpleasant, distasteful, but as long as no one's being harmed, nothing the government should restrict.

 

[Blindfaith]

As far as the whole Lot experience goes, where does it say that God condones it again?

And was Lot's life blessed because of the act of incest? I don't think so..................

I'm sorry, but the whole idea of incest is just wrong.

 

[feral]

I do not find incest acceptable. I believe that incest is almost always adults partnered with non-consenting children, and I support the purity and innocence of children. I cannot see where this type of union would be beneficial for anyone, and I have never heard an incest *victim* talk about how supportive and wonderful their experience was. It seems to be a form of sexual abuse, and the victims are almost always children.

 

[LaserCool]

As far as the whole Lot experience goes, where does it say that God condones it again?

And was Lot's life blessed because of the act of incest? I don't think so...................

Neither did I, but the point is that Lot's story is only one of several cases of incest in the Bible. This is one of the more lurid ones.

In Gen 20:12, Abraham has an incestuous relationship with his half-sister Sarah. Reaffirmed in Gen 17:16 as well. Tell me Abaraham wasn't "blessed".

In Exodus 6:20, Amram married his aunt (his father's sister) and had two kids by her: Aaron and Moses. God saw fit to reward Amram with a lifespan of 137 years.

I'm sorry, but the whole idea of incest is just wrong.

Ok, but why do you find it wrong? Explain your reasoning.

 

[Caedmon]

Well, if you accept a completely literal view of the Genesis creation account, then where did Adam and Eve's grandchildren come from? Just something to think about...

 

[Blindfaith]

Explain why I think incest is really wrong? Do I really need to?
I am completely with ferel on this one - I've never spoken to an incest victim that said it was a great experience

 

[Caedmon]

Wait, I think we need to clarify some things before we move farther. Are we discussing consensual or nonconsensual incest? And which cultural definitions of incest are we using?

 

[amie]

I think incest is wrong because it is a taboo in my culture. Had I grown up in a culture where it is acceptable I am sure my answers would be very different. I recognize that many times our opinions of things often stem from familial teachings, society, culture, etc...

I think it would be along the same lines as possibly choosing a denomination. For example, my friend Matt (an atheist) wrote his disertation on "The psychological reasons people choose religions and denominations that they choose"
I explained to him that most people are products of their environments when it comes to this, not all, but many are. I was telling him that being raised catholic I was catholic. Had I been raised by a tribe in some remote, far away place I highly doubt I would have been catholic. I'd probably be worshipping an elephant right now...
I think this may also apply to cultural taboos. If we are raised to think incest is morally repugnant then we most likely will say "Its just wrong"
If we are raised to think it is acceptable then we would most likely say "no harm no foul"...

 

[Marcel]

I think incest is wrong because it is a taboo in my culture. Had I grown up in a culture where it is acceptable I am sure my answers would be very different. I recognize that many times our opinions of things often stem from familial teachings, society, culture, etc...

I think it would be along the same lines as possibly choosing a denomination. For example, my friend Matt (an atheist) wrote his disertation on "The psychological reasons people choose religions and denominations that they choose"
I explained to him that most people are products of their environments when it comes to this, not all, but many are. I was telling him that being raised catholic I was catholic. Had I been raised by a tribe in some remote, far away place I highly doubt I would have been catholic. I'd probably be worshipping an elephant right now...
I think this may also apply to cultural taboos. If we are raised to think incest is morally repugnant then we most likely will say "Its just wrong"
If we are raised to think it is acceptable then we would most likely say "no harm no foul"...

Hallo lieverd,

I can't help but wonder about one thing though... would the emotional harm caused by incest then also depend on one's cultural background. Or to put it differently; would such possible emotional harm purely consist of shame, due to how they feel they're preceived by society, or how they've been tought according to which norms they should preceive themselves? And there's no inherrant harmfullness apart from that?

 

[amie]

Hallo lieverd,

I can't help but wonder about one thing though... would the emotional harm caused by incest then also depend on one's cultural background. Or to put it differently; would such possible emotional harm purely consist of shame, due to how they feel they're preceived by society, or how they've been tought according to which norms they should preceive themselves? And there's no inherrant harmfullness apart from that?

Well if one perceived incest as an ok thing I am not sure what emotional harm they would feel if any (provided it was mutual consented) however if they perceived it as being "wrong" even despite the mutual consent they may run the risk of feeling guilty.