Incel commits murder and shares pictures on social media

[Radagast]

While I agree, he is very focussed on addressing the behaviour of the girl.

I think the issue raised by @Ana the Ist is why relevant facts are apparently being excluded from media reports.

 

[rambot]

I think the issue raised by @Ana the Ist is why relevant facts are apparently being excluded from media reports.

How are those facts relevant?...outside of the context of victim culpability?

 

[Ironhold]

How are those facts relevant?...outside of the context of victim culpability?

Many left-wing groups nowadays refuse to accept the prospect that victims of an offense may have engaged in actions that put themselves in danger of having it happen to them; this is especially the case in male - on - female sexual assault and murder, as the prospect that the woman may have had anything to do with what happened to her blows too many narratives about victimization and the progressive stack.

As we've seen in this thread the left-wing narrative is "innocent teen girl killed by incel" when the facts in the case are shaping up to be "girl who engaged in risky and possibly even illegal behavior pushed her luck too far and found herself in the middle of a violent love triangle".

 

[Radagast]

How are those facts relevant?...outside of the context of victim culpability?

Because there are two responses to crime, both important.

1. Justice -- putting the criminal away for a long time.

2. Prevention -- reducing the chance that similar things happen in the future.

Both responses require an accurate description of what actually happened.

 

[Radagast]

As we've seen in this thread the left-wing narrative is "innocent teen girl killed by incel"

What's particularly disturbing is that the whole "incel" thing is increasingly looking like it was made up, purely to to demonise a specific group of people.

 

[Ironhold]

What's particularly disturbing is that the whole "incel" thing is increasingly looking like it was made up, purely to to demonise a specific group of people.

That's... what the left-wing is good at, unfortunately. Anyone who doesn't fit their narrative or is too vocal in complaining about something that's going on must be labeled so that they can be marginalized and dismissed.

 

[SummerMadness]

How are those facts relevant?...outside of the context of victim culpability?

Because the killer is an incel and implicates a wider subculture of individuals, the tactic is to deflect and imply she brought it on herself. Someone did that earlier in the thread, it's about smearing the victim to make it seem like her death is somehow her fault. It's a disgusting attitude.

 

[rambot]

Many left-wing groups nowadays refuse to accept the prospect that victims of an offense may have engaged in actions that put themselves in danger of having it happen to them; this is especially the case in male - on - female sexual assault and murder, as the prospect that the woman may have had anything to do with what happened to her blows too many narratives about victimization and the progressive stack.

As we've seen in this thread the left-wing narrative is "innocent teen girl killed by incel" when the facts in the case are shaping up to be "girl who engaged in risky and possibly even illegal behavior pushed her luck too far and found herself in the middle of a violent love triangle".

How is this different from the rape victim wearing a miniskirt?

I'm sorry. Asking this dude for a ride in a car with someone described as a friend is NOT a high risk activity. There are many other things that this dude could have done but he killed her. Making out with someone in front of him is ALSO not a high risk activity.

I'm curious what is now considered to be high risk.

And yet AGAIN the female victims lifestyle choices are a focus for investigation. Whatever it takes to mitigate the extreme reaction of this idiot who felt righteous in his murdering of this girl.
Why?

 

[rambot]

What's particularly disturbing is that the whole "incel" thing is increasingly looking like it was made up, purely to to demonise a specific group of people.

it's not made up. Whether the particular label for this guy fits the bill, to call the whole concept made up is really about you not acknowledging their ugly poisonous attitude that gets exposed to vulnerable individuals (the few males who would actually be willing to partake in that themed violence).

 

[SummerMadness]

it's not made up. Whether the particular label for this guy fits the bill, to call the whole concept made up is really about you not acknowledging their ugly poisonous attitude that gets exposed to vulnerable individuals (the few males who would actually be willing to partake in that themed violence).

I think what's there was an attempt to deflect from the language used by incels like "orbit." And now we're seeing all these attacks on her character as a way to minimize responsibility for her death. Rather focus on the ideas and attitudes that would give rise to actions like punching a woman that rejects you at a club, bringing up a woman's alleged sexual behavior as a way to shame them, and going as far as to imply she got herself killed, it is all designed to take the focus away from how toxic masculinity, loneliness and social media have coalesced into a community that is very dangerous (What Bianca Devins' Brutal Murder Tells Us About Male Entitlement And Misogyny). What we're seeing is a bunch of men degrading the victim due to their pent up angst over past rejections. It's the very essence of why notions of rape culture ring true. There is a big problem with men and accepting rejection because no one should be murdered because they didn't get what they wanted. And it's nonsense when people imply she is promiscuous, leading men on, or "playing a dangerous game."

 

[MehGuy]

If I'm not mistaken, that's what happened the night she died. She used her killer for a ride to a concert....and made out with the guy she was meeting there in front of her killer....and then wanted him to be her ride from the concert.

Curious if this was part of her teasing. In sadomasochistic communities there are (beta type) men who like to have relations with beautiful women who purposely lead them on and make them do chores while the women themselves do things like making out with hotter men in front of them.

 

[Radagast]

Because the killer is an incel

And you know that how?

and implicates a wider subculture of individuals

That's called "guilt by association." One man committed a horrible murder, and you are trying to blame an entire class of people.

That's exactly like saying "a black man raped my sister, let's hang all the Negroes."

it's about smearing the victim to make it seem like her death is somehow her fault

Nobody on this thread has done that, afaik.

 

[Radagast]

it's not made up. Whether the particular label for this guy fits the bill

I didn't say that the concept was made up, I said that there seemed to be no evidence for applying the label in this case.

 

[Radagast]

I think what's there was an attempt to deflect from the language used by incels like "orbit."

The word "orbit" is very, very widely used. Using it shouldn't be used to judge people.

That's like saying "this teenager used a word that gangsters sometimes use, let's lock him up."

 

[Ironhold]

I think what's there was an attempt to deflect from the language used by incels like "orbit."

Let's... go back to what was said earlier in the thread.

She also admittedly used her "orbiters" for various purposes. She'd use them for drugs, free rides, money, etc. This is the type of predatory behavior that people refer to as "gold digging"....and it's been made easier for younger women through social media apps like premium snapchat. She openly admitted to using guys this way (and many young women see nothing wrong with it and encourage it). If I'm not mistaken, that's what happened the night she died. She used her killer for a ride to a concert....and made out with the guy she was meeting there in front of her killer....and then wanted him to be her ride from the concert.

SummerMadness,

Do you, or do you not, feel that behavior such as this could have pushed someone who was already unstable so far as to finally knock them over the edge?

You're arguing that this person just randomly targeted her and went at it, when we're looking at a situation where a good lawyer can make an "insanity" defense stick and get the kid a mental institution instead of the chair.

That's the point of this. The murderer was in an unhealthy relationship with the victim, a relationship where the victim had the power. Reverse the genders, and we'd have folks cheering.

 

[Ironhold]

Also,

Love's a Loaded Gun - Wikipedia

Alice Cooper had a song about a situation like this... back in 1991.

"A guy seeing someone they're in love with blowing them off to be with dude after dude snaps and kills her" isn't a new concept, let alone anything to do with the internet.



(Yes, I have the original album it's on.)

 

[MehGuy]

You're arguing that this person just randomly targeted her and went at it, when we're looking at a situation where a good lawyer can make an "insanity" defense stick and get the kid a mental institution instead of the chair.

I see no reason to think he's insane. Possible a sadomasochist who was attracted to the "incel" community. There is a lot of "woe is me" talk there, and that will always attract certain sadomasochistic folk. A man who possible had inferior genetics who was torn between anger and hating his short comings and finding an attraction to be teased and rejected by his social betters for them.

Mental problems obviously, but not something I'd call insanity.

 

[SummerMadness]

Insanity is a legal term and such a defense would require him to demonstrate he has mental illness and had diminished capacity when he committed the crime. There's a reason why the insanity defense is seldom pursued, mostly because it's obvious they understand it is wrong to kill.

 

[rambot]

The word "orbit" is very, very widely used. Using it shouldn't be used to judge people.

That's like saying "this teenager used a word that gangsters sometimes use, let's lock him up."

Usage of vernaculars can suggest familiarity or relationship with the subculture.

 

[rambot]

Let's... go back to what was said earlier in the thread.



SummerMadness,

Do you, or do you not, feel that behavior such as this could have pushed someone who was already unstable so far as to finally knock them over the edge?

You're arguing that this person just randomly targeted her and went at it, when we're looking at a situation where a good lawyer can make an "insanity" defense stick and get the kid a mental institution instead of the chair.

That's the point of this. The murderer was in an unhealthy relationship with the victim, a relationship where the victim had the power. Reverse the genders, and we'd have folks cheering.

So it's 100% the victims fault or...? What percent?