In Rebirth, what does Water and Spirit symbolizes?

[TheSeabass]

No, the ones God gives to Christ are those who COME TO CHRIST, so then they are those God has chosen by His foreknowing them beforehand, those God has predestined to come to Christ.

John 6:35-37 the ones God gives to Christ are the ones that come to Christ and believe on Christ. With both verbs "cometh" and "believeth" be present tense shows the coming and believing is ongoing and continuous. Therefore God chose those that conditionally choose of their own volition to come and believe on Christ. The bible speaks nothing about God arbitrarily and unconditionally choosing certain individuals and then those individual only are able to come to Christ and believe on Him. Such an idea has God acting capriciously, showing respect of persons and putting culpability upon o for the lost.

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

As all should be able to see, being foreknown means you are predestined to be of those called, and all He calls are justified, so then this calling precedes their being justified. So the calling comes prior to their confession of belief.

Verse 29 begins with "for" that is an explanatory preposition given explanation to verse 28 that says "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." So the plural "whom" of v29 refers to the group Christian, the ones "that love God".

The "them" refers to the GROUP Christian that God foreknew that would be saved and not certain individuals chose unconditionally or randomly. Therefore God put salvation in the GROUP not the individual. From Eph 4:1-5 it is the GROUP that God foreknew would be "in Christ", be "holy and without blame" and be called "sons" and before ordained that the GROUP would do good works EPh 2:10 and NOT the individual apart from the group. Since no salvation is found outside the GROUP then we can know God never arbitrarily chose certain individuals to be saved apart from the GROUP, God never foreknew certain individual to be in Christ, holy and without blame and called 'son'. These things are all true only of the GROUP never the individual apart from the GROUP.

 

[sdowney717]

John 6:35-37 the ones God gives to Christ are the ones that come to Christ and believe on Christ. With both verbs "cometh" and "believeth" be present tense shows the coming and believing is ongoing and continuous. Therefore God chose those that conditionally choose of their own volition to come and believe on Christ. The bible speaks nothing about God arbitrarily and unconditionally choosing certain individuals and then those individual only are able to come to Christ and believe on Him. Such an idea has God acting capriciously, showing respect of persons and putting culpability upon o for the lost.




Verse 29 begins with "for" that is an explanatory preposition given explanation to verse 28 that says "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." So the plural "whom" of v29 refers to the group Christian, the ones "that love God".

The "them" refers to the GROUP Christian that God foreknew that would be saved and not certain individuals chose unconditionally or randomly. Therefore God put salvation in the GROUP not the individual. From Eph 4:1-5 it is the GROUP that God foreknew would be "in Christ", be "holy and without blame" and be called "sons" and before ordained that the GROUP would do good works EPh 2:10 and NOT the individual apart from the group. Since no salvation is found outside the GROUP then we can know God never arbitrarily chose certain individuals to be saved apart from the GROUP, God never foreknew certain individual to be in Christ, holy and without blame and called 'son'. These things are all true only of the GROUP never the individual apart from the GROUP.

Salvation is an individual matter, not a corporate one. Arguing your way makes no sense . your logic would have these verses to be speaking of a group which is obviously goofy..
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

 

[EmSw]

Salvation is an individual matter, not a corporate one. Arguing your way makes no sense . your logic would have these verses to be speaking of a group which is obviously goofy..
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Those words to Moses were taken out of context. Does that matter to you, sdowney?

 

[sdowney717]

Those words to Moses were taken out of context. Does that matter to you, sdowney?

Do you think Acts is accurate when speaking about Paul?

 

[EmSw]

Do you think Acts is accurate when speaking about Paul?

I guess we can tell by Paul's own words. According to Paul, did the men with him on the road to Damascus hear a voice or did they not hear a voice?

Besides, if Paul can liberally take passages out of context, why can't anyone else?

 

[TheSeabass]

Salvation is an individual matter, not a corporate one. Arguing your way makes no sense . your logic would have these verses to be speaking of a group which is obviously goofy..
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

The individual chooses to be in the foreknown group for salvation is in the group and not in the individual apart from the group.

God chose to have mercy upon the group called Christian and Jew and Gentile can be in that group. In Eph 1:1-5 God foreknew that the GROUP would have the blessings of being "in Christ", being "holy and without blame" and called "sons". These are the blessings that belong to the group and not to any individual apart from the group. Romans 9:15 does not give a basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others. Yet other verses show that obedience is the basis as Hebrews 5:9. Christians are those that obey God, hence God shows this group mercy,.



Calvinistic election has God choosing individuals to be saved thereby putting culpability on God for the non-chosen lost.

Yet the bibles' corporate election puts the accountability, responsibility on each person to be in the group. If one fails to be in the group then that is that persons' own fault and not the culpability of God.

There is an obvious nite and day difference between Calvinistic individual election and Biblical group election as far as accountability and culpability goes.

 

[sdowney717]

The individual chooses to be in the foreknown group for salvation is in the group and not in the individual apart from the group.

God chose to have mercy upon the group called Christian and Jew and Gentile can be in that group. In Eph 1:1-5 God foreknew that the GROUP would have the blessings of being "in Christ", being "holy and without blame" and called "sons". These are the blessings that belong to the group and not to any individual apart from the group. Romans 9:15 does not give a basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others. Yet other verses show that obedience is the basis as Hebrews 5:9. Christians are those that obey God, hence God shows this group mercy,.



Calvinistic election has God choosing individuals to be saved thereby putting culpability on God for the non-chosen lost.

Yet the bibles' corporate election puts the accountability, responsibility on each person to be in the group. If one fails to be in the group then that is that persons' own fault and not the culpability of God.

There is an obvious nite and day difference between Calvinistic individual election and Biblical group election as far as accountability and culpability goes.

People go to hell for the sins they do, but they go to heaven because of God's mercy on them.

1 Peter 2. salvation is individual for those God has show mercy to be saved.
For those who disobey God's command, to that they were destined=appointed, to stumble and disobey the message, v8.
but for the CHOSEN of GOD, v9, they have received mercy from God and so are saved.

4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]
8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

 

[TheSeabass]

People go to hell for the sins they do, but they go to heaven because of God's mercy on them.

1 Peter 2. salvation is individual for those God has show mercy to be saved.
For those who disobey God's command, to that they were destined=appointed, to stumble and disobey the message, v8.
but for the CHOSEN of GOD, v9, they have received mercy from God and so are saved.

4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]
8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Peter is writing to Christians, the group that is a "chosen people", a "royal priesthood", a "holy nation".

There is no such individual in the bible who is chosen of God, a royal priest yet not part of the group Christian. Therefore one must be in the GROUP to be God's chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession

 

[shakewell]

Based on Jn.3:1-21, some says it is literal water as of ‘‘water baptism’’ and the “Spirit” was the Holy Ghost.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I think "born of water" a reference to physical birth. That seems to best fit Nicodemus' question (enter the second time) and the contrast between flesh & Spirit in the next verse.

 

[Ron Gurley]

John 3 (NASB) ...Jesus' meeting with the priest Nicodemus in CONTEXT (ANNOTATED!)

4 Nicodemus said to Him, (Jesus)
"How can a man be born (AGAIN) when he is old?
He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb (with birth WATER) and be born (AGAIN), can he?"

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, (HERE COMES THE TRUTH!)
unless one is:
A. born of water (FIRST natural birth in birth WATER)
and
B. (born of) (God) the (Holy) Spirit (spiritually baptized!)
he cannot enter into the "kingdom of God". (a SPIRITUAL realm!)
6 That which is born of the
A. flesh is flesh (first WATER birth)
and
B.that which is "born of the Spirit" (spiritually CHANGED) is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I said to you,
‘You must be "born again." (SPIRITUALLY FROM ABOVE)
8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, (spirit=~WIND)
but do not know where it comes from and where it is going;
so is everyone who is "born of (God) the (Holy) Spirit"." (SPIRITUALLY FROM ABOVE)



John the Baptizer has the final John 3 WORDS:

31 "He who COMES FROM above is above all, (DEITY!)
he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth.
He who comes from heaven is above all. (DEITY!)
32 What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies;
and no one receives His testimony. (UNBELIEVERS!)
33 He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true.
34 For He whom God has SENT speaks the "words of God"; (DEITY!)
for He gives (God) the (Holy) Spirit without measure.
35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
==> (the CHOICE of Man's Spirit when DRAWN / CALLED)
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
BUT he who does not obey the Son (TO BELIEVE) will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."