In Rebirth, what does Water and Spirit symbolizes?

[Grandpa2390]

Of course, Christ wasn't needing to repent. But, even so, He choose, Himself, to be baptized in water. He is our model.

Amen! And be baptized we must.

But the Baptism of John is no longer relevant. Acts 19:3-5 It was the baptism of repentance .
We are baptized in Christ. and the water baptism is not a baptism of repentance.
Bible tells us that.

 

[Albion]

but that's what they believe.

No, its not. And that seems to verify what I thought I'd read in the earlier posts. If one's sins are washed away by Baptism, but the person has 60 more years to live, do you suppose that the people who accept this very standard or conventional view of the sacrament think that they're home free all the way to death? That is what the proposition "Baptism saves" necessarily means.

(keeping in mind that it is one step of three.. the third of which is God's filling with the spirit)

It might not be critical, but this wasn't mentioned in the previous post.

Just making sure you understand that I am not implying a majority --
believe that baptism is a symbol. It is a physical representation, proclamation, what-have-you of what happened on the inside. It is a picture. It is very important. but it is something we do because.

Understood.

 

[Grandpa2390]

No, its not. And that seems to verify what I thought I'd read in the earlier posts. If one's sins are washed away by Baptism, but the person has 60 more years to live, do you suppose that the people who accept this very standard or conventional view of the sacrament think that they're home free all the way to death? That is what the proposition "Baptism saves" necessarily means.

I thought we were past this!!! He said "baptism saves" but I know, and you know that he doesn't mean that is the sole requirement. At least he hasn't corrected me on this assumption. Why do we have to keep rehashing this. It is what thef believe. I know because I used to believe what he believes. I know what he is talking about. Until he corrects me.

and no they don't think they are home free all the way to death. People with these views tend to believe that you have to remain sinless, and will often be rebaptized.

And by sinless, I am not saying that anyone believes you can go out and commit sin freely, I mean sinless in the sense of, if you accidently hammer your thumb and swear... then you die of a heart attack without repenting of cursing... then you are not saved. I don't know if he believes that. but the church I used to attend did.

Once again, why do we have to keep rehashing this? He said Baptism saves, and I am going to say it, but that doesn't mean that he is saying, or I am saying that he is saying that Baptism is the only requirement and it is guaranteed, etc.

It might not be critical, but this wasn't mentioned in the previous post.

I know I didn't say it before. When I was talking to the other guy, it didn't need to be said. we both understand what are talking about.

And I don't feel the need to hash out everything I think is understood.
We are not writing a Bible study. We are discussing a specific point(s)

 

[Albion]

And I don't feel the need to hash out everything I think is understood.
We are not writing a Bible study. We are discussing a specific point(s)

All right. I agree with you that enough has been said.

 

[Grandpa2390]

All right. I agree with you that enough has been said.

Thankyou

 

[sdowney717]

Peter in Acts said God purifies the heart by faith, either gentile or jew it is the same, as God did for the apostles. the warning was not to add on anything else...
as a yoke to test God.

Acts 15:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

 

[TheSeabass]

So you see now you are putting words and ideas into my mouth. Things that I never said. I never said that he said that water baptism alone saves and is guaranteed to save. I have only ever said what I have been saying. that he is saying that water baptism is a requirement for salvation.

even when he said water baptism saves, I still didn't assume that he meant water baptism ALONE saves. Because that wouldn't make any sense.
Until he corrects me, I know what he believes because I used to believe what he believes.

I think we know what each other is saying. Even if we disagree or don't understand.

Interesting that you say "I still didn't assume that he meant water baptism ALONE saves". Yet when some people see the word "believe" in a verse as John 3:16 they are quick to ADD the word ALONE to it.

When Peter said "baptism saves" he did not say baptism alone saves but was using baptism as a synecdoche were "baptism" includes belief, repentance and confession. Therefore verses that teach belief saves then we know that "believeth" includes repentance, confession and baptism.

 

[TheSeabass]

because he letting them know that he is not talking about water. Otherwise he would not have needed to say that. Or he would have said the opposite.

Because baptism have multiple meanings. and it is easy to think he would be talking about water baptism. So he clarifies. and he explains. not the baptism of water. but the baptism of repentance.
Water washes our flesh. It is a picture of what God does to our hearts when we repent. and turn ourselves over to him. Peter is making sure they understand that. it is not the physical act that saves us. It is the spiritual act when we repent and our hearts are washed clean and circumcised.

The same way that the Ark saved Noah and his family through the "baptism of the earth "
Repentance saves us from the coming judgment.

the OT has a physical act because the earth is physical
the NT has a spiritual act cleansing the spiritual.

The OT was a picture of what was to come. and we preserve that picture in water baptism.

In 1 Peter 3:20-21 Peter makes and OT type to NT anti-type connection. The KJV uses the word "lie figure" which is from the Greek "antitypos" and means a mirror reflection. A die would be the type and the impring the die makes is the anti-type. Looking in a mirror you would be the try, your reflection is the anti-type.

The OT type-------saved by water (flood)
The NT antitype---saved by water (baptism)

Obviously the world was not flooded with Spirit and men at Noah's time did not drown in spirit but in water.

Why would Peter say "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" is he was not talking about water?

It's a fact that Peter has water baptism under consideration in the text.

1 Pet 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Peter tells us what baptism is not for and what it is for. Baptism is NOT for the putting away the filth of the flesh. Baptism is the answer of good conscience towards God. When the bible talks about conscience it is talking about being conscience of sin. Water baptism is the answer to how one gets a good conscience towards God.

In Acts 2, Peter convicted his hearers of crucifying the Messiah v23. Their hearts become pricked by what Peter said, Peter made them aware of their sin which then bothered their conscience so much so they asked Peter what shall we do. Peter's ANSWER for them to have a good conscience was to be baptized for remission of sins. Those that obeyed had all their sins remitted where then they could stand before God with a good conscience. This is why Peter says baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. Nowhere is it ever said 'belief only' is the answer of a good conscience towards God because belief only cannot, does not remit sins.

 

[TheSeabass]

No, its not. And that seems to verify what I thought I'd read in the earlier posts. If one's sins are washed away by Baptism, but the person has 60 more years to live, do you suppose that the people who accept this very standard or conventional view of the sacrament think that they're home free all the way to death? That is what the proposition "Baptism saves" necessarily means.

From my position, water baptism is just the beginning point of Christ's blood washing away all sins. From this beginning point the Christian, if he lives another 60 years, then must continue to walk in the light those 60 years where Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins, 1 John 1:7. This continued walking and washing of 1 Jn 1:7 is why a Christian does not have to continue to be water baptized over and over every times he commits a sin. Yet water baptism is just the starting point of Christ's blood washing away sins.

 

[sdowney717]

From my position, water baptism is just the beginning point of Christ's blood washing away all sins. From this beginning point the Christian, if he lives another 60 years, then must continue to walk in the light those 60 years where Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins, 1 John 1:7. This continued walking and washing of 1 Jn 1:7 is why a Christian does not have to continue to be water baptized over and over every times he commits a sin. Yet water baptism is just the starting point of Christ's blood washing away sins.

When Christ said he that believes and is baptised shall be saved, dont insert in your mind
'he that believes and is WATER baptised shall be saved'

Look at the context, Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire, not with water as in John's baptism.
And for confirmation that this is a spiritual Holy Spirit baptism, the one Christ does, Christ describes some supernatural sign events will follow those so baptised.

Mark 16:15-18King James Version (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[sdowney717]

The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit is that same truth spoken by Christ in John 3 describing how we are saved, born of water and of the Spirit of God.
Paul would not go against Christ's teaching, Paul simply explains that we are saved by God's actions, not by any of our own actions. The washing of water by the WORD, (God's spoken word, man shall not live by bread alone, ) is what makes men clean. His WORD that proceeds from His mouth is how we live.

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”


Ephesians 5:25-27New King James Version (NKJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Titus 3:3-8New King James Version (NKJV)
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Good works profit men, not God.

 

[Albion]

When Christ said he that believes and is baptised shall be saved, dont insert in your mind
'he that believes and is WATER baptised shall be saved'

We don't.

It's only the people who don't think that baptism is practiced in the manner of Christ's own baptism who insist upon calling that "Water Baptism." For everyone else, Christ said to baptize, so we baptize.

 

[sdowney717]

We don't.

It's only the people who don't think that baptism is practiced in the manner of Christ's own baptism who insist upon calling that "Water Baptism." For everyone else, Christ said to baptize, so we baptize.

Christ being water baptized by John saved no one.
John was the end of the OT, and Christ the new and living way to God.

Whatever you do, don't preach you must be water baptised to have eternal life.

Acts 1

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Prior to Christ was the baptism by water of John, BUT you shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit, which is how we become sealed by the Holy Spirit into the New Covenant relationship.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Albion]

Christ being water baptized by John saved no one.

That's not inconsistent with the nature of an example. Besides, baptism is baptism, regardless of whether or not it saves you (it doesn't. not by itself).

John was the end of the OT, and Christ the new and living way to God.

We all agree to that, I think.

Whatever you do, don't preach you must be water baptised to have eternal life.

I didn't. But I'd love it if you addressed what wrote in my post instead of all these things I did NOT say.

 

[TheSeabass]

When Christ said he that believes and is baptised shall be saved, dont insert in your mind
'he that believes and is WATER baptised shall be saved'

1) F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106). There is nothing in Mk 16:16 that shows baptized is being used figuratively, it therefore is a literal burial in water.

2) Comparing Mark's account of the great commission with Matthew 28:19-20 we find disciples (humans) commanded to go and baptize. Humans administer water baptism as Phillip in Acts 8.

Contrasting baptisms

Water baptism per the NT:
commanded
administered by humans
saves/remits sins
to be taught/observed
lasts till the end of the world

Holy Spirit baptism:
never commanded, only promised to the Apostles
Administered by God without intervention of mans' hands
does not save/remits sins
not the baptism to be taught/observed per Mt 28:19,20
was a prophecy of Joel that was fulfilled and ended in the 1st century

Look at the context, Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire, not with water as in John's baptism.
And for confirmation that this is a spiritual Holy Spirit baptism, the one Christ does, Christ describes some supernatural sign events will follow those so baptised.

Mark 16:15-18King James Version (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Matthew gives more information, Matthew 3:11:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

To whom do both pronouns "you" refer to?
In the context John is speaking to Pharisees that came to his baptism Matt 3:7.

Why would John say to these Pharisees "I baptize YOU with water" when John had not done so! (Luke 7:30). It become apparent that John is using the pronouns "you" in a generic sense where they are not referring to anyone particularly he was talking to. There is an old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink". Both of the pronouns "you" are being used generically and not referring to anyone specifically. So what John is doing is announcing to the people type of baptism he baptized with and the type of baptism Christ will baptize with. John is not promising Christ's baptisms to them or anyone of us today. Therefore it cannot be told who the pronouns "you" refer to from the immediate context of Mt 3:11 so we have to look to the fulfillment of John's words to find out who the 'you' is that will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. In Acts 1:1-5 Christ is with His APOSTLES and Christ refers to John's word in Acts 1:5. Now we know that the "you" that was promised baptism with the Holy Ghost was the Apostles and not anyone today. And it was just the Apostles in Acts 2 that was baptized with the Holy Spirit per Christ's promise to them in Acts 1:1-5.

=====

In Mark 16:17 the nearest plural antecedent of the plural pronoun "them" would be "the eleven" in verse 14. In this context it was the disciples that did not believe Mark 16:11-13 and Jesus upbraided those disciples for their unbelief Mark 16:14. So "them that believe" would be of those disciples that did not believe. The plural pronouns "they" and "them" in Mark 16:17-20 refer to these disciples, especially note verse 20 how "they" and "them" do refer to those disciples.

In 2 Corinthians 12:12 Paul calls these signs "signs of an Apostle" not signs of a believer. Some people's interpretation of Mark 16:15-20 is that each and every believer, even today, will have all these miraculous signs. First, even in the first century when they did possess miraculous signs not all believers had all these signs, some believers had none at all, 1 Corinthians 12:29-30. Secondly, the purpose of signs and miracles was fulfilled and these signs ceased around the end of the 1st century, 1Cor 13; Eph 4.

 

[Grandpa2390]

@sdowney717
Amen!

 

[TheSeabass]

we are saved by God's actions, not by any of our own actions.

Acts 2:40 - save yourselves
1 Timothy 4:16 - save thyself
2 Corinthians 7:1 - cleanse ourselves
James 4:8 - Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded
1 Peter 1:22 - Seeing ye have purified your souls
2 Timothy 2:21 - If a man therefore purge himself


Certainly man has a role in his own salvation and is not 100% passive.

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 2:40 - save yourselves
1 Timothy 4:16 - save thyself
2 Corinthians 7:1 - cleanse ourselves
James 4:8 - Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded
1 Peter 1:22 - Seeing ye have purified your souls
2 Timothy 2:21 - If a man therefore purge himself


Certainly man has a role in his own salvation and is not 100% passive.

Unless you are given to Christ by God before your conversion, you will never believe in Christ since the Holy Spirit will not be teaching you and leading you and arranging the circumstances of your life to bring you to Christ.
All those God the Father has given to Christ WILL come to Christ. Unless God has granted for you to come to Christ, you will not come to Christ.

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

 

[TheSeabass]

Unless you are given to Christ by God before your conversion, you will never believe in Christ since the Holy Spirit will not be teaching you and leading you and arranging the circumstances of your life to bring you to Christ.
All those God the Father has given to Christ WILL come to Christ. Unless God has granted for you to come to Christ, you will not come to Christ.

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

In verse 37, who are the one's God gives to Christ? Just people at random? No, God gives those to Christ who come to Christ and believe on Him, verse 35

How do people come to believe in Christ? By the word authored by the Holy Spirit. John 6:45 men are drawn by that word when men have been "taught" "heard" and "learn" then men come to Christ.



There is nothing supernatural in this, nothing apart form the word or man's volition and accountability.

Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

Note the spirit gives life by His words, the bible He authored. Read for yourself in the verses you cite above where Jesus said "The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

Again, nothing supernatural, no "regeneration" by the Spirit upon the heart of man happens apart from the word and man's volition.

 

[sdowney717]

In verse 37, who are the one's God gives to Christ? Just people at random? No, God gives those to Christ who come to Christ and believe on Him, verse 35

How do people come to believe in Christ? By the word authored by the Holy Spirit. John 6:45 men are drawn by that word when men have been "taught" "heard" and "learn" then men come to Christ.



There is nothing supernatural in this, nothing apart form the word or man's volition and accountability.



Note the spirit gives life by His words, the bible He authored. Read for yourself in the verses you cite above where Jesus said "The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

Again, nothing supernatural, no "regeneration" by the Spirit upon the heart of man happens apart from the word and man's volition.

No, the ones God gives to Christ are those who COME TO CHRIST, so then they are those God has chosen by His foreknowing them beforehand, those God has predestined to come to Christ.

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

As all should be able to see, being foreknown means you are predestined to be of those called, and all He calls are justified, so then this calling precedes their being justified. So the calling comes prior to their confession of belief.