In Rebirth, what does Water and Spirit symbolizes?

[Jether]

Based on Jn.3:1-21, some says it is literal water as of ‘‘water baptism’’ and the “Spirit” was the Holy Ghost.

 

[W2L]

What does faith tell you?

 

[Jether]

What does faith tell you?

Base on the scripture, "water" is a symbol of the “Holy Ghost” to be given.
Jn. 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 -
The Lord with the Samaritan woman, asked for a drink from her, and she says, that a Samaritan has no dealing with the Jews, and the Lord says unto her, “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him and he would have given thee “Living Water’’. Here the Lord offers the gift of God as the “Living Water”, v.14. The “Living Water” becomes a “well of water springing into everlasting Life”; this Living Water will give an Everlasting Life. The water, shall be in Him a ‘‘Well’’ of water for Eternal life, on Jn. 7:37-39, the “Well'' became ‘‘Rivers of Living Water’’ out of His belly (heart) and on v. 39, the Lord identifies the “Living water” as the “Spirit” which is the Holy Ghost.

The “Spirit” was mistaken as the Holy Ghost.
Jn. 6:63,68 “It is the spirit that quickeneth (giveth life); the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are “spirit” and they are “life”, v. 68, Peter says, “thou hast the words of Eternal Life”.
The Lord said that His ‘‘words’’ are ‘‘spirit’’ and are ‘‘life’’, means that, the spirit is the “Word of Life” (I Jn.1:1). The Lord says that His words are spirit and they are life, here Peter is saying that to be born again is by the incorruptible seed which is the Word of God and the Word of God is the Gospel, so the Word, Seed and the Gospel are one. In Jn. 1:1-13, the Lord was the ‘‘Word’’, as He was called by name as the “Word of God”, the White Horse Rider in Rev. 19:13, and to become the child of God, He was the one to be received and to believe and the receiver is ''Born of God'', and in Jn. 3:14-18, the Lord Himself is the Gospel, v.14, as the crucified Christ and v. 16, as the given, “gave His only begotten Son”, that whosoever believed on Him shall not perish (go to hell, lost) but have eternal life. Therefore, the “Spirit” is the Lord Jesus. God bless.

 

[W2L]

Base on the scripture, "water" is a symbol of the “Holy Ghost” to be given.
Jn. 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 -
The Lord with the Samaritan woman, asked for a drink from her, and she says, that a Samaritan has no dealing with the Jews, and the Lord says unto her, “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him and he would have given thee “Living Water’’. Here the Lord offers the gift of God as the “Living Water”, v.14. The “Living Water” becomes a “well of water springing into everlasting Life”; this Living Water will give an Everlasting Life. The water, shall be in Him a ‘‘Well’’ of water for Eternal life, on Jn. 7:37-39, the “Well'' became ‘‘Rivers of Living Water’’ out of His belly (heart) and on v. 39, the Lord identifies the “Living water” as the “Spirit” which is the Holy Ghost.

The “Spirit” was mistaken as the Holy Ghost.
Jn. 6:63,68 “It is the spirit that quickeneth (giveth life); the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are “spirit” and they are “life”, v. 68, Peter says, “thou hast the words of Eternal Life”.
The Lord said that His ‘‘words’’ are ‘‘spirit’’ and are ‘‘life’’, means that, the spirit is the “Word of Life” (I Jn.1:1). The Lord says that His words are spirit and they are life, here Peter is saying that to be born again is by the incorruptible seed which is the Word of God and the Word of God is the Gospel, so the Word, Seed and the Gospel are one. In Jn. 1:1-13, the Lord was the ‘‘Word’’, as He was called by name as the “Word of God”, the White Horse Rider in Rev. 19:13, and to become the child of God, He was the one to be received and to believe and the receiver is ''Born of God'', and in Jn. 3:14-18, the Lord Himself is the Gospel, v.14, as the crucified Christ and v. 16, as the given, “gave His only begotten Son”, that whosoever believed on Him shall not perish (go to hell, lost) but have eternal life. Therefore, the “Spirit” is the Lord Jesus. God bless.

The spirit is the Lord, the Lord is the Word, i agree. I dont get into semantics over defining the truth, the spirit, and the holy Ghost. They are all the same. John 14 teaches us that the spirit is the spirit of truth. Yes the living water represents the Spirit. I believe that the flesh and blood, and the bread from heaven, these also represent the Spirit, which is the truth, the spoken word, and the Lord Himself. . In my opinion.

 

[Grandpa2390]

It is really simple once you see it :

Water and spirit are referring to spiritual renewal and cleansing.

Baptized of the water is not referring to baptism because Nicodemus would not have understood Christian Baptism (which did not exist) or John the Baptist's Baptism. And yet Jesus ridicules him for not understanding this already.

It is not speaking of a first birth and a second birth. Telling someone that in order to be saved they needed to have been born doesn't make sense, even if they used that kind of language to describe physical birth (and there is no evidence that they did). Unless the unborn children are not saved (even though the Bible says that they are...). Or there are people alive who had not been born.

After telling Nicodemus that he needs to be born again
and that the way to be born again is to be born of the water and spirit, Jesus tells him a few more things about it and says in John 3:10 that he should know this. And the reason he should know this is because Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament.
Ezekial 36:24-27

The Parallel is obvious. If you study the New Testament, you find that the scriptures people use to justify Baptism as a requirement for salvation is actually a call to repentance. Baptism is important, but it comes after. Our Spirits are cleansed, not by the baptism that washes dirt off of our flesh, but the baptism that washes the heart.
1 Peter 3:21

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

is a pretty direct example/explanation. that the baptism that saves us, is repentance. It is the appeal to God for a good conscience.

So based on that, the scripture is referring to water and spirit as the spiritual cleansing and renewal. Baptized in the water and the spirit, our heart are washed clean (from the sin, etc) and we are given a new spirit that causes us to walk in the statutes of God.

Baptized in water is what follows that appeal to God for a good conscience, and the spirit is what follows. The granting of that appeal. Forgiveness of the sin, and the giving of a good conscience.
We are forgiven of our sins, and then receive the circumcision of the heart. The Law of God written on our hearts. where we are able/desire to walk in God's law as opposed to the sinner that we were before.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Based on Jn.3:1-21, some says it is literal water as of ‘‘water baptism’’ and the “Spirit” was the Holy Ghost.

for me it's literal also enjoyed reading all the views though interesting takes on it.

 

[Jether]

It is really simple once you see it :

Water and spirit are referring to spiritual renewal and cleansing.

Baptized of the water is not referring to baptism because Nicodemus would not have understood Christian Baptism (which did not exist) or John the Baptist's Baptism. And yet Jesus ridicules him for not understanding this already.

It is not speaking of a first birth and a second birth. Telling someone that in order to be saved they needed to have been born doesn't make sense, even if they used that kind of language to describe physical birth (and there is no evidence that they did). Unless the unborn children are not saved (even though the Bible says that they are...). Or there are people alive who had not been born.

After telling Nicodemus that he needs to be born again
and that the way to be born again is to be born of the water and spirit, Jesus tells him a few more things about it and says in John 3:10 that he should know this. And the reason he should know this is because Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament.
Ezekial 36:24-27

The Parallel is obvious. If you study the New Testament, you find that the scriptures people use to justify Baptism as a requirement for salvation is actually a call to repentance. Baptism is important, but it comes after. Our Spirits are cleansed, not by the baptism that washes dirt off of our flesh, but the baptism that washes the heart.
1 Peter 3:21

is a pretty direct example/explanation. that the baptism that saves us, is repentance. It is the appeal to God for a good conscience.

So based on that, the scripture is referring to water and spirit as the spiritual cleansing and renewal. Baptized in the water and the spirit, our heart are washed clean (from the sin, etc) and we are given a new spirit that causes us to walk in the statutes of God.

Baptized in water is what follows that appeal to God for a good conscience, and the spirit is what follows. The granting of that appeal. Forgiveness of the sin, and the giving of a good conscience.
We are forgiven of our sins, and then receive the circumcision of the heart. The Law of God written on our hearts. where we are able/desire to walk in God's law as opposed to the sinner that we were before.

While it is true that “Baptism’’ is one of the ordinances given by Lord Jesus, it is a symbol of identification. Water and Spirit are both necessary for a person's spiritual Rebirth. You will never be saved without being Rebirth.

 

[Grandpa2390]

While it is true that “Baptism’’ is one of the ordinances given by Lord Jesus, it is a symbol of identification. Water and Spirit are both necessary for a person's spiritual Rebirth. You will never be saved without being Rebirth.

Amen! I agree. but rebirth doesn't include water baptism. Rebirth is about

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
(see 1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Water Baptism is a profession of faith, not a work of salvation.

If you study it out, you find that nowhere is water baptism is required for salvation. That is why those who want to teach a salvation by works (baptism) cling so desperately to this scripture.

But in context it is so obvious that Jesus is referring to the passage in Ezekiel. Nicodemus was a great teacher in Isreal, he would have been familiar (or should have been) with this passage. and he should have known what Jesus was saying right off.

 

[TheSeabass]

Based on Jn.3:1-21, some says it is literal water as of ‘‘water baptism’’ and the “Spirit” was the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5--------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13----Spirit++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5--------Holy Spirit+++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26------the word++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>cleansed

Since the bible is its own best commentary and since there is just one way to be saved (born again) and since all verses of God's word are in perfect harmony then all four verses above must say the same thing. It become obvious that 'water' of John 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 and 'laver of water' of Titus 3:5 and Eph 5:27.

Therefore the role 'water' has in the new birth is water baptism as water was used a few verses later in John 3:22-23.

The role the Spirit plays in the new birth is the Spirit is the author of the Bible that instructs man on how to be saved. It is through the Spirit's word men are born again:

1 Cor 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

James 1:18 "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

So the Spirit through His word "begats" men who obey it. The Spirit's word operates upon the heart of men who hear it as those in Acts 2 who heard the inspired word preached by Peter and had their hearts pricked by it and when they obeyed verse 38 they were born again by the Spirit through His inspired word spoken by Peter and water baptism.


EDIT:

John 3:5-------------Spirit++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Matthew 7:21-------do the will of my Father>>>>>>>>>>>enters the kingdom


Since water baptism has been commanded and John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism then one is doing the will of the Father when he obediently submits to water baptism and thereby can enter the kingdom.

 

[bling]

Based on Jn.3:1-21, some says it is literal water as of ‘‘water baptism’’ and the “Spirit” was the Holy Ghost.

Being “born again” is what Jesus told Nicodemus he need to do. This requires some thinking, because Jesus does not address the questions or comments that are verbalized, but directs his comments to the persons next step in their personal spiritual development (what is on their heart spiritually). Jesus is not making some general philosophical statement (like Buddha might make) but is always addressing the audience He is talking to. We have to get into the context.

What did Nicodemus need to do next in his spiritual development?

What does Nicodemus need to be doing next? (study the Old Testament, become one of the followers of Jesus right then and there, Confess, repent, etc.)

The first thing Nicodemus might do at least is what he already knows he should do? Is that not where you would start? So what is that?

Since Nicodemus is still part of the Sanhedrin, he would not have been immersed baptized by John’s baptism. That would have got him thrown out of the Sanhedrin, but being smart Nicodemus would know he should be baptized.

John’s baptism would have been a hot topic among the religious scholars, yet the answer was obvious and they all know it (remember Jesus using it against them and causing them to quit asking him questions?)

Jesus is not going to hand out the answer to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus knows the answer, but he will make Nicodemus think about it hard, since it would already be on his mind.

 

[Grandpa2390]

John 3:5--------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13----Spirit++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5--------Holy Spirit+++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26------the word++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>cleansed

Since the bible is its own best commentary and since there is just one way to be saved (born again) and since all verses of God's word are in perfect harmony then all four verses above must say the same thing. It become obvious that 'water' of John 3:5 is equivalent to "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13 and 'laver of water' of Titus 3:5 and Eph 5:27.

I don't know where you are getting "laver of water" from Titus and Eph, I see in Titus that we are washing of regeneration (1 Peter 3:21... that's Repentance), and in Eph the washing is done by the word.

The role the Spirit plays in the new birth is the Spirit is the author of the Bible that instructs man on how to be saved. It is through the Spirit's word men are born again:

1 Cor 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

James 1:18 "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Amen!

So the Spirit through His word "begats" men who obey it. The Spirit's word operates upon the heart of men who hear it as those in Acts 2 who heard the inspired word preached by Peter and had their hearts pricked by it and when they obeyed verse 38 they were born again by the Spirit through His inspired word spoken by Peter and

Repentance (1 Peter 3:21) not

water baptism.

Understand me that Water Baptism is important. It is the outward public declaration of your faith. If you have been changed on the inside, you are going to want to be baptized.
You are going to want to follow every law in the Gospel written on the page and on the heart.. But it is not the law that saves us.

But if you happen to die of some tragic accident before you could be baptized, that doesn't mean you weren't saved.

EDIT:

John 3:5-------------Spirit++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Matthew 7:21-------do the will of my Father>>>>>>>>>>>enters the kingdom


Since water baptism has been commanded and John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism then one is doing the will of the Father when he obediently submits to water baptism and thereby can enter the kingdom.

Water Baptism was not commanded in John 3:5, but it was commanded in Acts 2:38. But it is not the Water Baptism that saves us. It is, as you said, an act of obedience that we submit ourselves to the Father. and we proclaim our conversion. It doesn't mean as much to us today, but a public proclamation in the 1st century and after would have gotten you killed or worse. tortured, shunned, etc.
It was a serious deal. And it still is, even if it doesn't carry the same penalties from the world.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus speaking in Acts says John, who was the last of the OT prophets and the end of the Old Covenant, baptized with water the people, but for YOU, the believer in Christ shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit, and that baptism is the one that matters for you to be saved in the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. And that is a baptism which HE Christ does, not of any man.

Acts 1
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

1 Corinthians 12:12-14New King James Version (NKJV)
Unity and Diversity in One Body
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Based on Jn.3:1-21, some says it is literal water as of ‘‘water baptism’’ and the “Spirit” was the Holy Ghost.

"Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:4-7

Nicodemus' take on the concept was one of natural birth. Jesus corrected him by comparing natural birth (by water) to spiritual birth (by the spirit).

Water is the symbol of natural physical birth and the spirit is the symbol of a 2nd type of birth which was like it in some way - but different in others.

There are many parallels in the two kinds of birth. That is why Jesus used the example.

As natural birth from water is the natural consequence of the physical life that was imparted in the inmost parts due to the activity of one's earthly father ---- so the new birth (by hearing and understanding the Word of God) is the natural eventual consequence of having been generated spiritually by our Heavenly Father.

In due time one who has been generated naturally is born of water from their mother's womb and begin his new life in this earthly kingdom.

Likewise, in due time one who has been generated spiritually by God will be born again and begin his new life in the Kingdom of God. That due time varies from person to person. Some seem to hear the message and believe almost immediately while for others there is a "kicking against the goads" which may be prolonged and rather violent (as with Paul and myself).

But in due time all of God's elect will believe with the heart and confess with the mouth Jesus as Lord. That's the cry of the new born babe who is fit only for the milk of the Word. In time that babe will ideally be fit for more meaty doctrine. But I suppose that time depends on how well he yields to the Spirit of God.

 

[TheSeabass]

I don't know where you are getting "laver of water" from Titus and Eph, I see in Titus that we are washing of regeneration (1 Peter 3:21... that's Repentance), and in Eph the washing is done by the word.


Amen!

The Greek word "loutron" means a laver, a bath. It is found only 2 times in the NT in Tts 3:5 and Ephesians 5:27 and refers to water baptism:

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown) (Eph 5:27-loutron) rather as Greek, “with,” or “by the laver of the water,” namely, the baptismal water. So it ought to be translated in Titus 3:5, the only other passage in the New Testament where it occurs.

AT Robertson- (loutron) "The only other N.T. example of loutron is in Titus 3:5. The reference here seems to be to the baptismal bath (immersion) of water, "in the bath of water."

William Hendrickson Commentary - "This 'washing of (or: 'with') water' here in Eph.5:26 can hardly have reference to anything else than to baptism. So much should be clear."

Vincent's Word Studies - (loutron) - With the washing of water ( τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος )--Λουτρόν washing is properly laver. Note the article, the laver, as something well known. There is no satisfactory evidence for the meaning washing. The allusion is to baptism...

Wuest - in order that He might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the bath of water in the sphere of the Word, (Eerdmans)

Matthew Henry - "The instrumental means whereby this is affected are the instituted sacraments, particularly the washing of baptism and the preaching and reception of the gospel."

Schaff's Popular Commentary - With the laver of the water. The reference to baptism is unmistakable; probably there is also an allusion to the bride’s oath before marriage. ‘Laver,’ or, ‘font’ is a more correct rendering than ‘washing.’ ‘The water’ points to the well-known use of water in baptism.

Dummelow commentary - "Christian baptism, with perhaps a reference to the bride's bath before marriage."

So washing of water of Eph 5:27 and washing of regeneration both refer to water baptism. There would be no need for laver of water, baptismal font if it were about some kind of 'spirit baptism'.


Again, the bible is its own best commentary:

John 3:5--------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13----Spirit++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5--------Holy Spirit+++++++laver of water>>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26------the word++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>cleansed

Clearly 'water' of Jn 3:5 is equated to 'baptized' of 1 Cor 12:13 and baptismal font/laver of water of Tts 3:5 and Eph 5:27.

Repentance (1 Peter 3:21) not

I do not know what you mean by this, but the bible does teach that the Spirit's role in the new birth is through his word where men are born again by the word 1 Peter 1:23. The role of water is baptism.

Understand me that Water Baptism is important. It is the outward public declaration of your faith. If you have been changed on the inside, you are going to want to be baptized.
You are going to want to follow every law in the Gospel written on the page and on the heart.. But it is not the law that saves us.

The bible does not define water baptism as you do. Nowhere ever does the bible define water baptism as an "outward declaration of our faith" due to a change inside.

The bible does teach:
Water baptism is when God removes the body of sins, sins remitted Col 2:11-12; Acts 2:38
Water baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21
Water baptism is how one gets in Christ Gal 3:27
Water baptism is how one becomes 'dead' and justified Rom 6
Water baptism is accepting the gospel Acts 2
Water baptism is the new birth John 3:5

It becomes very evident salvation is not possible with out obediently submitting to the Lord's will in baptism.

But if you happen to die of some tragic accident before you could be baptized, that doesn't mean you weren't saved.

Loopholes do not get one around the word of God. If a tragic accident can be used as a 'loophole' to get one around the necessity of water baptism then what about this tragic accident: An atheist is on a plane that is about to tragically crash into the ground at several hundreds miles an hour due to engine failure. The atheist begins to think there is life after death and there is a 'higher power' but tragically dies in the crash not know who or what to believe. If he only had just a little more time he would have come to have faith in Christ. If your loophole gets one around the necessity of being water baptized due to lack of time to be water baptized, then my loopholes gets one around having faith to be saved. We then no longer need the truth of the bible to guide us for we can develop all the loopholes we want to be our 'guiding truth"

Water Baptism was not commanded in John 3:5, but it was commanded in Acts 2:38. But it is not the Water Baptism that saves us. It is, as you said, an act of obedience that we submit ourselves to the Father. and we proclaim our conversion. It doesn't mean as much to us today, but a public proclamation in the 1st century and after would have gotten you killed or worse. tortured, shunned, etc.
It was a serious deal. And it still is, even if it doesn't carry the same penalties from the world.

The new birth is when one is water baptized and Jesus used the words "must" and "except" John 3:3-7 in referencing the new birth making it a command, a necessity.

Now you admit that water baptism is commanded. The fact it is commanded, if for no other reason, makes water baptism essential to salvation for not be baptized is direct disobedience to that command which is sin, unrighteousness. Hence one is in sin/unrighteousness and remains in that lost state until he does obediently submit to the command to be water baptized. If one need not obey the Lord's command to be baptized, then we can just ignore the Lord's command to believe and repent too and still be saved.

 

[Grandpa2390]

The Greek word "loutron" means a laver, a bath. It is found only 2 times in the NT in Tts 3:5 and Ephesians 5:27 and refers to water baptism:

and yet in neither one of those places is it translated that way, or would that way make any sense.

So washing of water of Eph 5:27 and washing of regeneration both refer to water baptism. There would be no need for laver of water, baptismal font if it were about some kind of 'spirit baptism'.

and neither one of those scriptures translated it that way... Spirit produces spirit and flesh produces flesh. You are arguing that the physical world cleans the spiritual... Sorry, but no.

I do not know what you mean by this, but the bible does teach that the Spirit's role in the new birth is through his word where men are born again by the word 1 Peter 1:23. The role of water is baptism.

Peter outright says that water baptism is not what saves you. It is the baptism of repentance. He says it directly. It is not (as you put it) the laver that erases your sins and saves you. It is repentance.

I don't know how he could say it anymore clearly. And with that, and others, you realize that when talking about baptism in the New Testament, we have to be mindful of which baptism.

The bible does not define water baptism as you do. Nowhere ever does the bible define water baptism as an "outward declaration of our faith" due to a change inside.

The bible does teach:
Water baptism is when God removes the body of sins, sins remitted Col 2:11-12; Acts 2:38
Water baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21

oh my goodness. And with your attempt to use 1 Peter 3:21 to say that water baptism saves us... you are just being willingly ignorant. lol.
Nevermind. Good luck to you.

 

[Albion]

Peter outright says that water baptism is not what saves you. It is the baptism of repentance. He says it directly. It is not (as you put it) the laver that erases your sins and saves you. It is repentance.

I don't find "it saves you" in any of the quotes you are replying to.

oh my goodness. And with your attempt to use 1 Peter 3:21 to say that water baptism saves us

More of the same.

 

[Grandpa2390]

Loopholes do not get one around the word of God. If a tragic accident can be used as a 'loophole' to get one around the necessity of water baptism then what about this tragic accident: An atheist is on a plane that is about to tragically crash into the ground at several hundreds miles an hour due to engine failure. The atheist begins to think there is life after death and there is a 'higher power' but tragically dies in the crash not know who or what to believe. If he only had just a little more time he would have come to have faith in Christ. If your loophole gets one around the necessity of being water baptized due to lack of time to be water baptized, then my loopholes gets one around having faith to be saved. We then no longer need the truth of the bible to guide us for we can develop all the loopholes we want to be our 'guiding truth"



The new birth is when one is water baptized and Jesus used the words "must" and "except" John 3:3-7 in referencing the new birth making it a command, a necessity.

Now you admit that water baptism is commanded. The fact it is commanded, if for no other reason, makes water baptism essential to salvation for not be baptized is direct disobedience to that command which is sin, unrighteousness. Hence one is in sin/unrighteousness and remains in that lost state until he does obediently submit to the command to be water baptized. If one need not obey the Lord's command to be baptized, then we can just ignore the Lord's command to believe and repent too and still be saved.

except that it is not a loophole. The Bible commands us to flee fornication. But if you didn't get the opportunity to flee fornication before you died, does that mean you weren't saved.

You are confusing the things we do because we are saved with the things we do to be saved.
We are commanded to live holy and righteous, but we are not saved because we lived holy and righteous. We lived holy and righteous because we were saved. The mode of living is an evidence of our salvation, not a prerequisite.
Likewise with baptism.

There are even people the Bible says were saved before they were baptized.

 

[Grandpa2390]

I don't find "it saves you" in any of the quotes you are replying to.


More of the same.

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism saves you. The Baptism that is an appeal to god for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not that Baptism that washes your flesh.

Appealing to god for a clean and good conscience, I (and most theologians) call that repentance, but perhaps you call it something else?

 

[Albion]

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism saves you. The Baptism that is an appeal to god for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Not that Baptism that washes your flesh.

Appealing to god for a clean and good conscience, I call that repentance, but perhaps you call it something else?

All I did was call attention to the fact that you insisted to TheSeabass that he's said that baptism saves (you), but he apparently never did say that.

 

[Grandpa2390]

All I did was call attention to the fact that you insisted to TheSeabass that he's said that baptism saves (you), but he apparently never did say that.

He said it is required for salvation. That if you don't do it, you aren't saved. That means the same thing.
If it doesn't, then we would be having this discussion. After all, he began this debate with me. So if we agree, then... And he could certainly correct any misinterpretation I have of what he believes. But he hasn't.