In Modern Times How God Tells People How Evolution Is Not True

[TLK Valentine]

Exactly!

And that raises the issue with those who checked God and found nothing -- Either they were doing it wrong, or God, having autonomy, can choose to remain hidden, in which case, continuing to try would be a waste of time.

 

[Halbhh]

And that raises the issue with those who checked God and found nothing -- Either they were doing it wrong, or God, having autonomy, can choose to remain hidden, in which case, continuing to try would be a waste of time.

...unless He told us a way (another part in addition to the seeking I pointed out earlier).

Is another part given?

Yes.

There are some bits to come right to mind for me. Here's one:
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Notice that last: "does what is right." (the 'fear' is akin, meaning to fear to do wrong, because there is Justice in the end).

So, here we see (and you can read the proceeding passage and get more detail) that doing what is right is a key step.

Let's look for what was done that is right in the proceeding verses. Here:
"God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. "
Notice that when he prayed (which is a seeking), that he had already made gifts to the poor, a good example of doing what is right. What is the general example? You can read the parable of the Good Samaritan. You could and should consider Matthew 7:12. When you do consider Matthew 7:12, consider in time the verses that lead up to it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

...unless He told us a way (another part in addition to the seeking I pointed out earlier).

Is another part given?

Yes.

There are some bits to come right to mind for me. Here's one:
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Notice that last: "does what is right." (the 'fear' is akin, meaning to fear to do wrong, because there is Justice in the end).

So, here we see (and you can read the proceeding passage and get more detail) that doing what is right is a key step.

Let's look for what was done that is right in the proceeding verses. Here:
"God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. "
Notice that when he prayed (which is a seeking), that he had already made gifts to the poor, a good example of doing what is right. What is the general example? You can read the parable of the Good Samaritan. You could and should consider Matthew 7:12. When you do consider Matthew 7:12, consider in time the verses that lead up to it.

Fine -- we can try it the way Peter says, and see if it works.

Nevertheless, if God 's determined to stay hidden form a certain person, it's not going to matter whose advice they take.

 

[Colter]

This post has to do with how God tells the majority of His followers that they did not Evolve from apes.

How simple but most effective of a work within His followers.

It is based on the Holy Spirit teaching Truth.

View attachment 220029

Again, how simple it is!

When a follower is presented that they are an evolutionary descendent of apes, within them the Holy Spirit states "That is not true, it is false".

Such conviction of Truth aligns them to Truth and Reality.

This happens in many cases with followers not knowing consciously that it was the Holy Spirit they heard and agree with.

It does not take any academic investigation and much science of Earth's past to make this conclusion of Reality.

It often and repeatedly happens the same way. The Holy Spirit within them says "That is false."

They hear and act on the Word made near. They are Creationists by the Holy Spirits doing. They produce the fruit of Truth how evolution is a lie that easily.

Very plain and simple.

As mentioned in another thread: which should a person turn to foremost for attaining Reality about Earth's origin and history, God or geologic science? The answer is very simple

That’s not the Holy Spirit, that’s the spirit of a religious bias.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'd want instead to learn about (this was my approach) the God Who said "Love your neighbor as yourself"

How appealing a deity is has 0 impact on my interest in knowing if they exist or not. One can certainly be interested in the stories based on claimed traits, but to be extraordinarily blunt, Yahweh isn't a particularly interesting deity in terms of story telling. It comes off as a mishmash of other deities resulting in activities and views that conflict, and the being described in the OT comes off as being an entirely different entity than the NT... with no character progression bridging the gap.

Try to actually make Yahweh sound like an interesting character in 1 sentence without showing the worst the deity has done. And only as god the father, because Jesus has an entirely different personality.

In contrast, I can easily make most Hindu gods sound interesting enough to learn more about in one sentence. Example: Ganesha, the elephant-headed god, doesn't start out with an elephant head in most stories.

The one showing both righteous justice -- Who decided to put to an end cities that sacrificed children for instance -- but Who also shows forgiveness and mercy, over and over (including that the innocent children dying would gain the life to come). These -- this is the God you find in the Bible.

You know that Yahweh makes a guy sacrifice his beloved daughter in Judges, right? Some people try to explain it away as the guy being overly prideful, but plenty of other people in the text supposedly rely on the deity for victory, so why does this guy get the "evil genie granting wishes that backfire" treatment? Or how about Job? Yahweh allows satan to screw up his life OVER A BET, and when Job dares question it, berates him for daring to question the will of Yahweh. Kinda understandable that you interpret the deity you believe in as utterly benign when the theology doesn't allow you to interpret its actions as malignant in any context.

All of this is irrelevant to why I don't believe in the deity, though. Plenty of terrible things exist, as do plenty of wonderful things. That type of quality has no impact on my beliefs whatsoever. Of course I want good things to be real and bad things to be fantasy, but reality is not contingent upon my personal desires.

To learn math, I'd not look long at whatever local math classes I'd experienced with indifferent students making mistakes, some of whom are not even slightly interested in math and just misbehaving, or to a poor teacher. Instead, I'd look in the textbook.

Lol, I read the bible very early on in my quest as a seeker. I view it as one of the defining reasons why I am still an atheist. What you fail to realize is that context is everything when it comes to your religion; no one is going to just pick up a bible on their own, read it, and suddenly become a Christian all on their own. Especially not if they are older than 10 and read it in order. Your comparison with math is apples-to-oranges, because the consistency of mathematics is demonstrable and actually provable. 2 plus 2 equals 4 and always equals 4. Note how religion is variable between different regions of the world, but math is not.

I'd not try to argue about math abstractly or about one textbook vs another, but I'd look in the main textbook often used and read closely at some length to see for myself. The part to begin with would be a gospel, an account of the sayings and deeds of Christ. I'd suggest Luke in the NIV translation. But that's up to you, whether you want to hear from the one who said "forgive your brother from your heart." I definitely wanted to hear more of what Jesus said.

That's a weird book in the bible to suggest. Most would recommend reading John first. Also, I am mildly miffed that you seem to have assumed I haven't read the bible before.

 

[Halbhh]

You know that Yahweh makes a guy sacrifice his beloved daughter in Judges, right?

Where? Not in Bible Gateway passage: Judges 11:30-40 - New International Version

In this passage, we see Jephthah is the one doing this, not anyone else.

Now, to an atheist though, I remember, even just any death of a young person (or middle aged too), any death of any kind really, is tragic. All of them.

Not merely from a war, but also from a famine, or a hurricane, or cancer.

All. All death of the young (or also of the middle aged too) is tragic.

Right? How do you feel?

But to those knowing that next comes the afterlife, we know that death is only the inevitable end of these temporary bodies we are in.

And that we (all!) simply pass through 'death', like a doorway, to what comes next.

Death is not the end.

Christians can know, if they learn it, that all people will be judged fairly in that day of judgement to come after this temporary mortal life. Romans 2:6-16.

So, for Christians the most truly tragic death is the death of those without redemption, without forgiveness.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Where? Not in Bible Gateway passage: Judges 11:30-40 - New International Version

In this passage, we see Jephthah is the one doing this, not anyone else.

What would have happened to Jephthah if he chose to go back on his promise? Generally, good things do not happen to those that defy Yahweh. After all, was it not Yahweh that stated what Jephthah had to offer in order for his wish to be fulfilled? And the text states that Yahweh KNEW his daughter would end up being the sacrifice if Jephthah accepted the deal. In ended up being "kill your daughter or face the wrath of a god".

Now, to an atheist though, I remember, even just any death of a young person (or middle aged too), any death of any kind really, is tragic. All of them.

Irrelevant to beliefs; for all either of us know, deities just like being worshiped and any afterlife they offer is a lie. For all either of us know, there is an afterlife, but deities don't exist. Again, what I believe has nothing to do with what I want, so do not make appeals to emotion in your posts.

Not merely from a war, but also from a famine, or a hurricane, or cancer.

All. All death of the young (or also of the middle aged too) is tragic.

Right? How do you feel?

-_- bored with your emotionally tied rambling. Personally, I'd love for there to be an afterlife. But, even though I'd really love to convince myself that there is one if just to make it so I don't worry about death, I can't force myself to believe something just because I want it to be true. However, no afterlife can undo the pain and suffering of life without undoing what in part makes us who we are, so dying via months of starvation would be a tragic experience regardless. But, the most tragic thing about it is that it could be prevented. Rather than assume people will experience a great afterlife following their horrible life, why not aim to make the life we know we have great? It's not like you believe people have to starve to death to go to heaven, so there's no reason not to try to help with this problem.

But to those knowing that next comes the afterlife, we know that death is only the inevitable end of these temporary bodies we are in.

And that we (all!) simply pass through 'death', like a doorway, to what comes next.

Death is not the end.

Christians can know, if they learn it, that all people will be judged fairly in that day of judgement to come after this temporary mortal life. Romans 2:6-16.

So, for Christians the most truly tragic death is the death of those without redemption, without forgiveness.

The implications of the Christian afterlife dynamics are 100% irrelevant to why I am not a Christian. I am now getting very miffed, because you are acting as if I don't know the basic details of the Christian afterlife.

But, those implications can make for some very dark situations. You, a Christian, have loved ones that are not Christians. There are people you care about that are going to hell, based on your beliefs. If you are like me, and the majority of your family members are not Christians, you'd be separated from the most important people to you forever just because they didn't believe the same thing you did. They could have been saintlike in their actions, and it wouldn't matter, because they'll burn forever anyways. Not only this, but you'd be stuck in heaven, knowing for all eternity that the majority of humanity was burning just on this belief basis. If you believe heaven cannot have sorrow, etc., then you'd also lose your humanity, becoming a perpetually happy shell of what you once were, making going to heaven almost a worse fate than going to hell. This is the afterlife you are parading around as if it is so great and so relaxing to believe in.

Again, my revulsion towards an afterlife that punishes people based on beliefs has nothing to do with why I don't believe in it. I don't believe in it because of the lack of evidence supporting its existence, no more and no less. Honestly, from my perspective, no afterlife can be as terrifying as the absence of any afterlife, so my emotional biases already skew heavily in favor of believing in an afterlife. It just so happens that my beliefs aren't based on emotional appeal.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This post has to do with how God tells the majority of His followers that they did not Evolve from apes.

How simple but most effective of a work within His followers.

It is based on the Holy Spirit teaching Truth.

View attachment 220029

Again, how simple it is!

When a follower is presented that they are an evolutionary descendent of apes, within them the Holy Spirit states "That is not true, it is false".

Such conviction of Truth aligns them to Truth and Reality.

This happens in many cases with followers not knowing consciously that it was the Holy Spirit they heard and agree with.

It does not take any academic investigation and much science of Earth's past to make this conclusion of Reality.

It often and repeatedly happens the same way. The Holy Spirit within them says "That is false."

They hear and act on the Word made near. They are Creationists by the Holy Spirits doing. They produce the fruit of Truth how evolution is a lie that easily.

Very plain and simple.

As mentioned in another thread: which should a person turn to foremost for attaining Reality about Earth's origin and history, God or geologic science? The answer is very simple

Amen .
Whenever a child is raised in the way he should go, he will not depart far from it even when he is older.
Finding anyone raised as they should be is rare today, as in the days of Noah,
and just like in the cities of sodom and gomorrah. (like maybe 3%?? or less)

 

[Halbhh]

What would have happened to Jephthah if he chose to go back on his promise?

You are asking what I'd guess? We can only guess, since we are not God, nor are we able to know all of His thoughts.

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So we could only guess. I'd guess if Jephthah begged God for forgiveness for his arrogance and desire to manipulate God and set terms -- trying to control God -- if he'd truly repented in real remorse about the entire idea of setting terms to God...

...then my guess is that God would have forgiven him.

It's only guessing also, but maybe he could have made it much better odds to save his own soul. (we can only guess at his ultimate fate; for instance, he might later have repented well enough generally or have gained mercy in other ways)

And, then guessing about what Jephthah might have done if he'd repented profoundly at that moment, I'd guess he'd feel relief then and happily abandon his own very poor idea, and thus not kill his daughter, and so she wouldn't have died (her temporary mortal body) as soon, by decades. But we can guess she has simply gone on to eternal life in bliss, as we can think likely she will obtain by her character shown in the text.

(additional note: regarding the Book of Job, I earlier saw a common mistaken idea we hear often, but I don't discuss 5 or 10 points at once, because that becomes mere contentious arguing which I think has no gain for any person. But you can ask that elsewhere as a distinct question, or simply read through that book which can fix that misperception. Feel free though to ask me about any one thing or even 2 things though in discussions.)

 

[doubtingmerle]

You are asking what I'd guess? We can only guess, since we are not God, nor are we able to know all of His thoughts.

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So we could only guess. I'd guess if Jephthah begged God for forgiveness for his arrogance and desire to manipulate God and set terms -- trying to control God -- if he'd truly repented in real remorse about the entire idea of setting terms to God...

...then my guess is that God would have forgiven him.

It's only guessing also, but maybe he could have made it much better odds to save his own soul. (we can only guess at his ultimate fate; for instance, he might later have repented well enough generally or have gained mercy in other ways)

And it is only a guess that he will keep his word in the afterlife? You can only guess what his true intentions are for you?

 

[Halbhh]

And it is only a guess that he will keep his word in the afterlife? You can only guess what his true intentions are for you?

We can trust Him to do as He has said.

 

[Halbhh]

What would have happened to Jephthah if he chose to go back on his promise? Generally, good things do not happen to those that defy Yahweh. After all, was it not Yahweh that stated what Jephthah had to offer in order for his wish to be fulfilled? And the text states that Yahweh KNEW his daughter would end up being the sacrifice if Jephthah accepted the deal. In ended up being "kill your daughter or face the wrath of a god".

Ok.

Let's therefore consider what God said about making sacrifices to Him of people:

You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deuteronomy 12:31

What should we think of Jephthah saying to God something like:

'help me win, and I will (ignore or) directly break one of your most key laws -- I will do a human sacrifice to you (!!???!) -- which You emphasized is an abomination...' (illustrative only -- now including what Jephthah ignored or refused to learn or perhaps chose to forget or chose not to wonder about)

Wow.

What do you think?

I don't claim to know all of God's thought (not even close!), but I can see at least how being silent and allowing Jephthah to suffer the real consequence of his huge drastic evil and wrong makes sense.

Because, as God, He can rescue the daughter into eternal life in bliss.

What will it take to make Jephthah less proud and give him a chance to learn to repent?

What?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Ok.

Let's therefore consider what God said about making sacrifices to Him of people:

You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deuteronomy 12:31

What should we think of Jephthah saying to God something like:

'help me win, and I will (ignore or) directly break one of your most key laws -- I will do a human sacrifice to you (!!???!) -- which You emphasized is an abomination...' (illustrative only -- now including what Jephthah ignored or refused to learn or perhaps chose to forget or chose not to wonder about)

Wow.

What do you think?

That's not what Jephthah offers in any direct sense: "Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

Is your god not powerful enough to make it a goat or other animal that comes out of his house? Is it unreasonable to think in this time period that an animal would have been inside the house? To claim that this is an offer of a human sacrifice is to infer more than you reasonably can from the text. Plus, if Yahweh hates human sacrifices so much, why was the punishment that Jephthah had to kill his daughter, an innocent party? Shouldn't he have faced a mirror, and thus seen his own reflection come out? Or better yet, have him lose his battles as a rejection of the sacrifice offer? There are so many better ways for this to go.

I don't claim to know all of God's thought (not even close!), but I can see at least how being silent and allowing Jephthah to suffer the real consequence of his huge drastic evil and wrong makes sense.

When we convict murderers and the like, do we punish their family members too? His daughter is an innocent party, so even if Jephthah actually had offered a human sacrifice (which he didn't inherently do) and his offer couldn't be rejected, he should have been the one punished, not his daughter.

Because, as God, He can rescue the daughter into eternal life in bliss.

What will it take to make Jephthah less proud and give him a chance to learn to repent?

What?

-_- the only crime he committed was ambiguity; he was ambiguous about his offer, thus making it possible for his sacrifice to end up being a human. So Yahweh, like an evil genie, took advantage of that. I find it very interesting that you seem troubled by the idea of Yahweh doing terrible things. Was not Noah's flood a terrible thing that, in the end, didn't even rid the world of the sin that instigated it?

Furthermore, you seem to be unaware that Heaven isn't in the OT. Rather, the people that wrote the text believed in an afterlife somewhat similar to that of the Greek afterlife; one which is generally not as great as being alive for most people but tolerable, and a hellish existence for non-believers, etc. The dead become shades in Sheol, beings without emotion or strength.

-_- if Jephthah believed he was sending his daughter to heaven, he wouldn't have been so distraught about her being the sacrifice.

 

[Halbhh]

your god not powerful enough to make it a goat or other animal that comes out of his house? Is it unreasonable

See post 149.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You are asking what I'd guess? We can only guess, since we are not God, nor are we able to know all of His thoughts.

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So we could only guess. I'd guess if Jephthah begged God for forgiveness for his arrogance and desire to manipulate God and set terms -- trying to control God -- if he'd truly repented in real remorse about the entire idea of setting terms to God...

...then my guess is that God would have forgiven him.

-_- plenty of people in the bible make similar offers to Yahweh and are not punished for it. Offering a sacrifice in return for a service is not consistently considered a sinful activity in the bible.

Why are you stuck on this? I already told you, how benign or malevolent a deity is happens to be irrelevant to whether or not I would believe said deity exists. Is that not the case for you? Do you believe in Yahweh because you think it is good, yet not believe in satan because the existence of that being would be bad?

 

[Halbhh]

-_- plenty of people in the bible make similar offers to Yahweh and are not punished for it. Offering a sacrifice in return for a service is not consistently considered a sinful activity in the bible.

Why are you stuck on this? I already told you, how benign or malevolent a deity is happens to be irrelevant to whether or not I would believe said deity exists. Is that not the case for you? Do you believe in Yahweh because you think it is good, yet not believe in satan because the existence of that being would be bad?

To sincerely seek to find God we have to be humble, and wanting the good, trying.

Like this: "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you".

We don't have to be perfect, but we do have be trying to do good, wanting the good.

 

[PsychoSarah]

To sincerely seek to find God we have to be humble, and wanting the good, trying.

Like this: "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you".

We don't have to be perfect, but we do have be trying to do good, wanting the good.

-_- and you assume I don't? Most people don't have ill will towards others and are more than willing to commit acts of kindness. I am an autistic people that hates physical contact with other people, especially strangers. Yet, when a blind man asked me to guide him to the restroom, I noted the crowd of people and decided to grab this stranger's hand and guide him through the crowd. And it made me feel good to help him.

Most people feel good when they do good for others regardless of their personal beliefs relating to deities. My want to do good is independent of my being a seeker.

As for being humble... I don't like myself enough to be proud, as I have already expressed. I cry myself to sleep at night because of my fear of death, and I desperately seek any sign that there is a life after death just so that I can move on from my depressing, pathetic death obsession that keeps me from really living. It's to a point that it's almost insulting to suggest that I may be "too proud" to submit to god, but it reveals more about your perspective of non-believers than anything else. Most of us aren't rebels that hate your system and thus reject it; we don't believe the system exists.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="PsychoSarah, post: 72427689, member: 345531"]-_- and you assume I don't? Most people don't have ill will towards others and are more than willing to commit acts of kindness. I am an autistic people that hates physical contact with other people, especially strangers. Yet, when a blind man asked me to guide him to the restroom, I noted the crowd of people and decided to grab this stranger's hand and guide him through the crowd. And it made me feel good to help him.

Most people feel good when they do good for others regardless of their personal beliefs relating to deities. My want to do good is independent of my being a seeker.

As for being humble... I don't like myself enough to be proud, as I have already expressed. I cry myself to sleep at night because of my fear of death, and I desperately seek any sign that there is a life after death just so that I can move on from my depressing, pathetic death obsession that keeps me from really living. It's to a point that it's almost insulting to suggest that I may be "too proud" to submit to god, but it reveals more about your perspective of non-believers than anything else. Most of us aren't rebels that hate your system and thus reject it; we don't believe the system exists.[/QUOTE

VERY GOOD SARAH ! YHWH'S SHALOM (PEACE< JOY< HEALTH< RIGHTEOUSNESS< FREEDOM FROM SIN AND FROM ALL THE CONSEQUENCES OF SIN ) BE TO YOU AND YOUR HOUSEHOLD TODAY.
Period.

 

[Halbhh]

-_- and you assume I don't? Most people don't have ill will towards others and are more than willing to commit acts of kindness. I am an autistic people that hates physical contact with other people, especially strangers. Yet, when a blind man asked me to guide him to the restroom, I noted the crowd of people and decided to grab this stranger's hand and guide him through the crowd. And it made me feel good to help him.

Most people feel good when they do good for others regardless of their personal beliefs relating to deities. My want to do good is independent of my being a seeker.

As for being humble... I don't like myself enough to be proud, as I have already expressed. I cry myself to sleep at night because of my fear of death, and I desperately seek any sign that there is a life after death just so that I can move on from my depressing, pathetic death obsession that keeps me from really living. It's to a point that it's almost insulting to suggest that I may be "too proud" to submit to god, but it reveals more about your perspective of non-believers than anything else. Most of us aren't rebels that hate your system and thus reject it; we don't believe the system exists.

No, I don't assume against you! More, I'm happy to hear that you do want the good!

 

[Ophiolite]

No, I don't assume against you! More, I'm happy to hear that you do want the good!

As do a large number of atheists and agnostics. However, they want it because it is the "right thing", not because - as seems to be the case with some Christians - because they are fearful for their mortal soul.