In Modern Times How God Tells People How Evolution Is Not True

[bhsmte]

Yes, He tells me His identity.
That is perfect and is necessary. What is wrong with that?

The problem is not seeing your personal opinions as credible.

 

[juvenissun]

The problem is not seeing your personal opinions as credible.

It is not my personal opinion. It is written in the Book.

 

[bhsmte]

It is not my personal opinion. It is written in the Book.

Cool. Demonstrate the book is correct, with evidence.

 

[doubtingmerle]

A simple, No, that is not true" is how God keeps many from the snare of Evolution.

A simple, "No, that is not true" is what keeps many from falling for the snare of your creationism.

 

[tas8831]

Often non believers haven't yet noticed that God as Creator would be creating physics, and thus all we can observe via such as biochemistry, genetics, most recent common ancestor, and on and on, and that this would also fit perfectly into Genesis chapter 1.

Some try to assert, as if provable fact, that God doesn't exist (but this is unprovable by a logical nonbeliever's standard), or God if existing could not do some particular thing (sometimes I've seen variations of that one, which is both illogical and an assertion without proof).

Ergo, to be logical, consistent, and scientific, and atheist must become an agnostic (or a believer!) in time, as he/she becomes more informed or thinks more critically or carefully.

Are you familiar with the concept of 'begging the question'?

Because your entire premise seems to rely on it.

 

[Phred]

"The Enlightened" were days to come to pass where natural man idolized science as means to know Reality.

Many are in such quagmire. It is all over them.

But repentance has a Grand Stage for naturalists to follow. I made the turn after being educated in geology which has foundation of Naturalism and Scientism.

It is time for the so called enlightened to toss their idol they placed ahead of God, our Maker. Scientism is to be turned from, not exalted.

That's... meaningless. Science is a method. Do you understand that? It's just a method. It's not a religion, it's not a belief, it's not anything but a METHOD. You come up with an hypothesis. An idea. You propose that idea. You then perform experiments or make observations to see if that idea is correct. You publish your findings. If the idea is proven correct you give others a chance to replicate your findings. If it's not you might not publish at all. Or, if you do, it's because what you found was just as interesting as the original idea. Then others will perform experiments or make observations to either confirm or deny your findings. If you and they all agree your paper is considered peer-reviewed and what you suggest becomes conditionally "proven." That is, until something comes along to disprove it.

Science is a method. It's a method by which we learn about the universe. You're trying to justify believing your interpretation of the Bible above studying God's creation first-hand. Maybe that works for you... it doesn't for me.

There's no such thing as scientism. It's made up by people working to undermine the fact that science has closed the gaps into which a god is necessary. Isn't that right?

 

[Halbhh]

Are you familiar with the concept of 'begging the question'?

Because your entire premise seems to rely on it.

When calculating 12+12 or whatever math, I may along the way sometimes word something in a way that is begging the question. Ask, if you like, that question. Don't presume there is no answer, but try to get what someone is saying accurately, I found is helpful. Many that have looked at physics think that it cannot either prove or disprove God (it can help disprove some mistaken ideas some people have of course, the little versions of God that have human errors). (for disclosure, my background is in physics, and I've kept up with Astrophysics and Cosmology as hobby interests for decades now, so you won't need to review basics)

 

[TLK Valentine]

It is not my personal opinion. It is written in the Book.

That would mean that God didn't tell you anything; you just read it in a book.

 

[Zoii]

This post has to do with how God tells the majority of His followers that they did not Evolve from apes.

How simple but most effective of a work within His followers.

It is based on the Holy Spirit teaching Truth.

View attachment 220029

Again, how simple it is!

When a follower is presented that they are an evolutionary descendent of apes, within them the Holy Spirit states "That is not true, it is false".

Such conviction of Truth aligns them to Truth and Reality.

This happens in many cases with followers not knowing consciously that it was the Holy Spirit they heard and agree with.

It does not take any academic investigation and much science of Earth's past to make this conclusion of Reality.

It often and repeatedly happens the same way. The Holy Spirit within them says "That is false."

They hear and act on the Word made near. They are Creationists by the Holy Spirits doing. They produce the fruit of Truth how evolution is a lie that easily.

Very plain and simple.

As mentioned in another thread: which should a person turn to foremost for attaining Reality about Earth's origin and history, God or geologic science? The answer is very simple

I saw a documentary about a CIA agent who tried to blow the whistle on President George Bush's assertion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. A line in that movie was "Instead of gathering evidence and building possible theories and deductions, we are given the deduction and scramble to find patchy evidence that attempts to match it"

- Is there a parallel here?

 

[tas8831]

So... You do NOT know what the fallacy of begging the question is. It is this:

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. In other words, you assume without proof the stand/position, or a significant part of the stand, that is in question. Begging the question is also called arguing in a circle.

Examples:

1. Erica: "How do you know that the bible is divinely inspired?" Pedro: "Because is says right in the third chapter of II Timothy that 'all scripture is given by divine inspiration of God.'"
​

I especially liked their example.

When calculating 12+12 or whatever math, I may along the way sometimes word something in a way that is begging the question. Ask, if you like, that question. Don't presume there is no answer, but try to get what someone is saying accurately, I found is helpful. Many that have looked at physics think that it cannot either prove or disprove God (it can help disprove some mistaken ideas some people have of course, the little versions of God that have human errors). (for disclosure, my background is in physics, and I've kept up with Astrophysics and Cosmology as hobby interests for decades now, so you won't need to review basics)

Gibberish.

I was specifically replying to your question begging:

"Often non believers haven't yet noticed that God as Creator would be creating physics, and thus all we can observe via such as biochemistry, genetics, most recent common ancestor, and on and on, and that this would also fit perfectly into Genesis chapter 1."

 

[Halbhh]

So... You do NOT know what the fallacy of begging the question is. It is this:

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. In other words, you assume without proof the stand/position, or a significant part of the stand, that is in question. Begging the question is also called arguing in a circle.

Examples:

1. Erica: "How do you know that the bible is divinely inspired?" Pedro: "Because is says right in the third chapter of II Timothy that 'all scripture is given by divine inspiration of God.'"
​

I especially liked their example.



Gibberish.

I was specifically replying to your question begging:

"Often non believers haven't yet noticed that God as Creator would be creating physics, and thus all we can observe via such as biochemistry, genetics, most recent common ancestor, and on and on, and that this would also fit perfectly into Genesis chapter 1."

As above, we simply cannot conclude either way about God from knowing physics, geology, etc. That's the point made above. Just read more sympathetically in order to get what a person is trying to say.

Our expectations heavily influence our perception.

If you already feel you know what someone will say, it's very hard to hear them accurately.

The natural function of the brain tries to avoid extra effort (for the sake of rapid response fight or flight needs for survival in nature). In other words, you have to search effortfully often in order to find something, where you don't expect to find it. In other words, you will find what you are trying to find. Our expectations heavily influence our perception.

 

[PsychoSarah]

As above, we simply cannot conclude either way about God from knowing physics, geology, etc. That's the point made above. Just read more sympathetically in order to get what a person is trying to say.

Our expectations heavily influence our perception.

If you already feel you know what someone will say, it's very hard to hear them accurately.

The natural function of the brain tries to avoid extra effort (for the sake of rapid response fight or flight needs for survival in nature). In other words, you have to search effortfully often in order to find something, where you don't expect to find it. In other words, you will find what you are trying to find. Our expectations heavily influence our perception.

Dude, atheists lack faith, we don't believe absolutely that deities don't exist. Or rather, gnostic atheists are a very small minority. If we end up with an expectation of not perceiving any deities, it is a consequence of years and years of seeing no deities rather than expecting not to observe any from the start, like how I don't expect to wake up in the morning and see 2 suns in the sky.

 

[Halbhh]

Dude, atheists lack faith, we don't believe absolutely that deities don't exist. Or rather, gnostic atheists are a very small minority. If we end up with an expectation of not perceiving any deities, it is a consequence of years and years of seeing no deities rather than expecting not to observe any from the start, like how I don't expect to wake up in the morning and see 2 suns in the sky.

Suppose you lived in a village where the weather was clouds 24/7/365, and never had seen anything but a clouded day. Having never seen the light source causing daylight you could reasonably say quite correctly you'd never seen the sun.

Let's try an even more interesting metaphor possibly --

Currently in physics, we believe that we observe only parts of 1/5th of the mass that we are guessing exists, the remaining 4/5ths being an unknown mysterious stuff we currently label 'dark matter'.

You could quite reasonably assert that you've never seen dark matter. I have not either. I don't expect to wake up and see dark matter tomorrow either. Yet...it may exist, anyway.

Another metaphor --

Some pilots were claiming they had seen lightning go upwards from the highest thunderheads, as if up into empty space.

Sounds like an illusion.

There was not much evidence, only obscure related stuff not really connected, and one could not just go and observe it on demand. Other pilots, the big majority, did not report this....

On the basis of this claim, seemingly pretty dicey a claim, some scientists decided to try to find this claimed upwards lightning. After some considerable expense, they finally took an long flight, instruments at the ready, in conditions thought to allow for such if it exists.

Result: nothing. One really long flight, but zero evidence.

They didn't give up. Now you can read about sprites. Sprite (lightning) - Wikipedia

But, unlike sprites, God is experienced by millions, not a tiny handful, and unlike sprites, God is not a mere object or energy discharge, with no agency, no autonomy.

Instead, God is a being. He has autonomy, and can choose whether you can meet Him. To find Him, you'd have to be willing to meet His basic requirements. (like you'd not likely open the door to a stranger acting in a way you didn't like) Such as His requirement we be humble (that is open hearted instead of arrogant, seeking instead of dismissive). He did say how though for those that are humble. Such as in Jer 29:13, or even in Matthew chapter 7, no less.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Instead, God is a being. He has autonomy, and can choose whether you can meet Him.

Contrawise, He can choose to hide Himself, and should he do so, you're pretty much out of luck, agreed?

Such as His requirement we be humble (that is open hearted instead of arrogant, seeking instead of dismissive). He did say how though for those that are humble. Such as in Jer 29:13, or even in Matthew chapter 7, no less.

How do we know this comes from God?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Suppose you lived in a village where the weather was clouds 24/7/365, and never had seen anything but a clouded day. Having never seen the light source causing daylight you could reasonably say quite correctly you'd never seen the sun.

-_- even if I lived in such a place, I could see the sun via images other have posted, and I would recognize that it was lighter during the day than at night, necessitating a light source. No such inferences apply to deities, because no processes in the universe demand the need for such beings.

Let's try an even more interesting metaphor possibly --

Currently in physics, we believe that we observe only parts of 1/5th of the mass that we are guessing exists, the remaining 4/5ths being an unknown mysterious stuff we currently label 'dark matter'.

You could quite reasonably assert that you've never seen dark matter. I have not either. I don't expect to wake up and see dark matter tomorrow either. Yet...it may exist, anyway.

-_- dark matter can be observed because it bends light. How are you in physics and yet unaware of that? I'm a Biomedical Sciences major and I am aware of that just because of my own curiosity about the subject.

How about I test your claim of being in a physics field? Tell me, what is the most common mistake about the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy you were taught in high school that had to be corrected at the university level? I ask for this and not an explanation of any of the laws because that would be a little too easy to look up.

Another metaphor --

Some pilots were claiming they had seen lightning go upwards from the highest thunderheads, as if up into empty space.


Sounds like an illusion.

There was not much evidence, only obscure related stuff not really connected, and one could not just go and observe it on demand. Other pilots, the big majority, did not report this....

On the basis of this claim, seemingly pretty dicey a claim, some scientists decided to try to find this claimed upwards lightning. After some considerable expense, they finally took an long flight, instruments at the ready, in conditions thought to allow for such if it exists.

Result: nothing. One really long flight, but zero evidence.

They didn't give up. Now you can read about sprites. Sprite (lightning) - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(lightning)
Those aren't a form of lightning, but rather are a product of it. Thus, while that may have been what those pilots witnessed, their account of it was not accurate to what they actually were.

But, unlike sprites, God is experienced by millions, not a tiny handful, and unlike sprites, God is not a mere object or energy discharge, with no agency, no autonomy.

-_- sprites are physically measurable, there's even footage of them and "sprite hunting" where people go out of their way to see them.
Here's a video

Plus, are you just going to ignore all of the claims people have made about interacting with deities that aren't the one you believe in? Unlike the sprites you mentioned, people never have gotten deities on video. Faith healers consistently are frauds and brain scans of people "speaking with god" while praying show the same firing patterns as a person thinking to themselves, minus some activity in the brain associated with the sense of self. They are talking to themselves, but repeated prayer sessions have made them lose some of the ability to tell that.

Instead, God is a being. He has autonomy, and can choose whether you can meet Him.

And yet, all Christians assert said deity doesn't want anyone to go to hell. Most Christians also believe that belief in this deity is needed to avoid hell. Logically, this deity should then appear before everyone unambiguously, so that everyone believes in it and no one goes to hell. Anyone claiming that's a violation of free will conflicts with the people that claim to see the deity and thus convert as a result.

To find Him, you'd have to be willing to meet His basic requirements. (like you'd not likely open the door to a stranger acting in a way you didn't like) Such as His requirement we be humble (that is open hearted instead of arrogant, seeking instead of dismissive). He did say how though for those that are humble. Such as in Jer 29:13, or even in Matthew chapter 7, no less.

-_- I hate myself and would eat feces on a daily basis for a positive afterlife. I've also been a seeker for 9 years, and I am still on hold apparently.

Plus, there are plenty of obviously arrogant believers, and even outright evil believers in the same deity as yourself, so your association with belief and specific actions or personality traits is unfounded.

 

[Halbhh]

dark matter can be observed

I have an appointment for now, but factually dark matter has not been observed. Ever. We only have a computational map of where it would be by inferring mathematically as if it is a kind of matter with mass. Inference.

Zero observational evidence. You don't know what quantity of it is right in the room where you are at, for instance.

 

[Halbhh]

-_- even if I lived in such a place, I could see the sun via images other have posted, and I would recognize that it was lighter during the day than at night, necessitating a light source. No such inferences apply to deities, because no processes in the universe demand the need for such beings.


-_- dark matter can be observed because it bends light. How are you in physics and yet unaware of that? I'm a Biomedical Sciences major and I am aware of that just because of my own curiosity about the subject.

How about I test your claim of being in a physics field? Tell me, what is the most common mistake about the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy you were taught in high school that had to be corrected at the university level? I ask for this and not an explanation of any of the laws because that would be a little too easy to look up.

Those aren't a form of lightning, but rather are a product of it. Thus, while that may have been what those pilots witnessed, their account of it was not accurate to what they actually were.


-_- sprites are physically measurable, there's even footage of them and "sprite hunting" where people go out of their way to see them.
Here's a video

Plus, are you just going to ignore all of the claims people have made about interacting with deities that aren't the one you believe in? Unlike the sprites you mentioned, people never have gotten deities on video. Faith healers consistently are frauds and brain scans of people "speaking with god" while praying show the same firing patterns as a person thinking to themselves, minus some activity in the brain associated with the sense of self. They are talking to themselves, but repeated prayer sessions have made them lose some of the ability to tell that.



And yet, all Christians assert said deity doesn't want anyone to go to hell. Most Christians also believe that belief in this deity is needed to avoid hell. Logically, this deity should then appear before everyone unambiguously, so that everyone believes in it and no one goes to hell. Anyone claiming that's a violation of free will conflicts with the people that claim to see the deity and thus convert as a result.


-_- I hate myself and would eat feces on a daily basis for a positive afterlife. I've also been a seeker for 9 years, and I am still on hold apparently.

Plus, there are plenty of obviously arrogant believers, and even outright evil believers in the same deity as yourself, so your association with belief and specific actions or personality traits is unfounded.

I'd want instead to learn about (this was my approach) the God Who said "Love your neighbor as yourself"

The one showing both righteous justice -- Who decided to put to an end cities that sacrificed children for instance -- but Who also shows forgiveness and mercy, over and over (including that the innocent children dying would gain the life to come). These -- this is the God you find in the Bible.

To learn math, I'd not look long at whatever local math classes I'd experienced with indifferent students making mistakes, some of whom are not even slightly interested in math and just misbehaving, or to a poor teacher. Instead, I'd look in the textbook. I'd not try to argue about math abstractly or about one textbook vs another, but I'd look in the main textbook often used and read closely at some length to see for myself. The part to begin with would be a gospel, an account of the sayings and deeds of Christ. I'd suggest Luke in the NIV translation. But that's up to you, whether you want to hear from the one who said "forgive your brother from your heart." I definitely wanted to hear more of what Jesus said.

 

[Halbhh]

Contrawise, He can choose to hide Himself, and should he do so, you're pretty much out of luck, agreed?




How do we know this comes from God?

Well, that's like how did the scientists know whether these upward lightning claims were real? They didn't.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well, that's like how did the scientists know whether these upward lightning claims were real? They didn't.

That's right -- they didn't know... so they went and checked for themselves.

 

[Halbhh]

That's right -- they didn't know... so they went and checked for themselves.

Exactly!