In Defense of God

Par5

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If a house is burning down and killing everyone inside, and a Rescuer arrives (yes, One with a capital "R", that kind!).....

What if He, that Rescuer, chooses to....simply resurrect all the dead people, later?

It's one way of handling the situation, that does indeed amount to a rescue.

This isn't a complete analogy, but it has some parallel.

We do have a Rescuer, and we will live again, see.

Here's a key fact to consider in that analogy -- this house we are all in, now, today, is burning down!

Now, you're going to point out that the Rescuer started the fire, and that's fair. He did. But He planned all along, from the start, that we would live again, forever. These bodies were only meant to be a training ground, temporary. Sorry if you love this life and think it will end forever...but then please consider -- it's like a taste, in the good moments, of what is possible, what is to come.
Your analogy makes no sense. Your house may be burning down, mine is most certainly not.
You say you are sorry if I love this life. What is wrong with you? I have plenty to love about this life. Granted I have lived most of my life, a life that has been enriched by the wonderful woman I have been married to for 48 years, our wonderful children and grandchildren who bring us joy each and every day, and no shortage of really good friends. So you don't need to be sorry for me for enjoying my life, something I intend to keep doing while I still have breath in my body, and not something a self-righteous remark from you will stop me from doing.
You are still avoiding answering the questions I put to you. I won't repeat them, but I have asked these questions of Christians several times before regarding biblical infanticide and I have never received an answer. Maybe you will be the first, but I won't hold my breath!
 
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Halbhh

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Your analogy makes no sense. Your house may be burning down, mine is most certainly not.
You say you are sorry if I love this life. What is wrong with you? I have plenty to love about this life. Granted I have lived most of my life, a life that has been enriched by the wonderful woman I have been married to for 48 years, our wonderful children and grandchildren who bring us joy each and every day, and no shortage of really good friends. So you don't need to be sorry for me for enjoying my life, something I intend to keep doing while I still have breath in my body, and not something a self-righteous remark from you will stop me from doing.
You are still avoiding answering the questions I put to you. I won't repeat them, but I have asked these questions of Christians several times before regarding biblical infanticide and I have never received an answer. Maybe you will be the first, but I won't hold my breath!

Sorry! I was referring to how our bodies are temporary. Each of these bodies we are in will be gone in 5, 10, 30 years or whatever span. That's the "house burning down" analogy I was using. Sorry that it wasn't more clear!

In a way, that's a crucial piece of the answer about small children, infants, dying in all sorts of ways under God's eyes, in the world He made --

Famines
Malnutrition
Epidemics
Disease
Cancer
Random fatal events, like --
.. Hurricanes
.. Earthquakes
etc.
And, especially, at the hands of men in --
.. Wars
.. Murders
.. Genocides
.. Wholesale Slaughter
(including as just a few days ago in a little church in Texas)

All of it -- really every instance is disturbing. And all of it would be under the eyes of God then too, Him existing, then, right?

Do you agree?

To me, at least, they really do seem very similar in the only meaningful way -- the end of this life.

Is it really worse for the one that dies to die in an earthquake? A war? By cancer? Yes, sometimes it could be worse, but in the end, it's so much only about 1 thing alone -- the end of life here.

If that were it -- a real final death -- then it'd be just pure unmitigated tragedy.

Do you feel as if your question is being answered?

Here's the heart of the answer I have -- God resurrects them, in their essence -- the real who they are -- to eternal life, forever, in bliss.

That's it. That's the answer I have to offer, but please do ask questions if you have more on this, or about other things if you like.
 
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bhsmte

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As a Christian who is not afraid to confront the accusations of non-believers and even CINO's (Christians in Name Only) I want to share two things that I found on the Internet concerning accusations against God. One is a video, the other is a blog. Both are about God on trial. I think we as believers should be willing and able to tackle the most ardent attacks on our God and speak in defense of Him and His Word. I offer the two selections below.

http://www.thegodmurders.com/


Your comments are welcome.

How does one accuse something, they dont believe exists?
 
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Par5

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Sorry! I was referring to how our bodies are temporary. Each of these bodies we are in will be gone in 5, 10, 30 years or whatever span. That's the "house burning down" analogy I was using. Sorry that it wasn't more clear!

In a way, that's a crucial piece of the answer about small children, infants, dying in all sorts of ways under God's eyes, in the world He made --

Famines
Malnutrition
Epidemics
Disease
Cancer
Random fatal events, like --
.. Hurricanes
.. Earthquakes
etc.
And, especially, at the hands of men in --
.. Wars
.. Murders
.. Genocides
.. Wholesale Slaughter
(including as just a few days ago in a little church in Texas)

All of it -- really every instance is disturbing. And all of it would be under the eyes of God then too, Him existing, then, right?

Do you agree?

To me, at least, they really do seem very similar in the only meaningful way -- the end of this life.

Is it really worse for the one that dies to die in an earthquake? A war? By cancer? Yes, sometimes it could be worse, but in the end, it's so much only about 1 thing alone -- the end of life here.

If that were it -- a real final death -- then it'd be just pure unmitigated tragedy.

Do you feel as if your question is being answered?

Here's the heart of the answer I have -- God resurrects them, in their essence -- the real who they are -- to eternal life, forever, in bliss.

That's it. That's the answer I have to offer, but please do ask questions if you have more on this, or about other things if you like.
I am well aware that that the world has problems such as war, famine, disease and natural disasters, but that is not what I have been asking you about. Why is it that you can't give a straight answer to questions that anyone with a modicum of humanity would have no difficulty in answering?
What would you call someone who is capable of deliberately killing a helpless infant?
Could you do such a thing?
If not, why not?
I will give my answers to these questions in order of asking. A psychopathic murderer, no and because it would be as totally evil as evil can be.
Now perhaps you might want to have a go?
As a Christian who is not afraid to confront the accusations of non-believers and even CINO's (Christians in Name Only) I want to share two things that I found on the Internet concerning accusations against God. One is a video, the other is a blog. Both are about God on trial. I think we as believers should be willing and able to tackle the most ardent attacks on our God and speak in defense of Him and His Word. I offer the two selections below.

http://www.thegodmurders.com/


Your comments are welcome.
As a Christian who is not afraid to confront the accusations of non-believers and even CINO's (Christians in Name Only) I want to share two things that I found on the Internet concerning accusations against God. One is a video, the other is a blog. Both are about God on trial. I think we as believers should be willing and able to tackle the most ardent attacks on our God and speak in defense of Him and His Word. I offer the two selections below.

http://www.thegodmurders.com/


Your comments are welcome.
As you have stated that you are not afraid to confront the accusations of non-believers I will take you at your word and put some questions to you. I don't believe your god exists, but I have difficulty in understanding why anyone would want to believe and worship a being that the bible depicts as an egotistical monster that slaughters men women and children because they don't worship it, or if they do worship it, because they do something to displease it.
I find it more than disturbing that Christians can defend the mass slaughter of people as ordered by their god, and even more harrowing when they defend the slaughter of infants.
To date, Halbhh has not answered a couple of questions that I believe are relevant to this thread, perhaps you will be more forthcoming.
What kind of person do you think would be capable of deliberately killing a helpless infant? Could you do such a thing, and if not, why not?
 
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zephcom

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As a Christian who is not afraid to confront the accusations of non-believers and even CINO's (Christians in Name Only) I want to share two things that I found on the Internet concerning accusations against God. One is a video, the other is a blog. Both are about God on trial. I think we as believers should be willing and able to tackle the most ardent attacks on our God and speak in defense of Him and His Word. I offer the two selections below.

http://www.thegodmurders.com/


Your comments are welcome.

I would never presume to be capable of defending God. God is a big boy and should He feel it is necessary to be defended, He certainly has all the capability to do that on His own.

I suspect that what you are actually trying to do is defend ancient human perceptions of God from modern criticisms. The God found in the Christian Old Testament is, quite frankly, a monster which deserves no support at all.

But one should be able to recognize that the God depicted in the OT is how God was understood by ancient people in a culture far different than cultures in modern times. It is how people then -perceived- God. It is NOT how God actually behaved.

If God is truly unchanging, then we can realistically assume that God's behavior then is like His behavior now...non-interfering. Today we have HUMANS who declare that natural disasters are God's wrath, but few agree with them. Today we have people who are willing to declare to the media that 'God' saved them because they survived some disaster but people really understand they were just lucky.

Today if soldiers bashed babies heads in and raped women because their commander told them that was what 'God' wanted, we would still hold them accountable for war crimes because we all know God wouldn't tell the commander that. That the OT says that God told them to do those heinous things is no more an attempt to shed responsibility then as it would be today.

Defending that God is really no more than defending a tribal culture of killing and retribution. Jesus was correct to change those teachings from ancient times to a more enlightened teaching of love and forgiveness.
 
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Halbhh

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Why is it that you can't give a straight answer to questions that anyone with a modicum of humanity would have no difficulty in answering?
What would you call someone who is capable of deliberately killing a helpless infant?
Could you do such a thing?

Wow, forgive me for failing to think you meant to ask me if I would kill children?..... It's just so....vastly far from anything I'd imagine you meant to ask me personally. Myself.

People have to forgive others, else humanity will end in war.

Is it that you really meant to ask me personally if I would kill an infant????

That's so far away from any possible reality that I didn't imagine you were asking me personally.

Of course I would not.

I'm truly surprised you didn't already guess that easily.

Of course, this answer might instantly raise this question to me next: "Are you a pacifist?"

Because of course wars involve inevitably the situation of a lot of innocent people being killed, every time, in every war, without any expectation (I doubt even one in all of history).

Answer: yes, I am, because I'm under then New Covenant established by Christ. I can only take defensive actions, and might have to surrender my mere physical life too, of course!

Now, I'm curious -- what about you? Do you endorse some wars, even though those wars will with complete certainty result in many innocent people, likely also infants too, being killed?

What is your own position?

To understand the idea the rules changed with Christ, consider this very telling passage --

2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?”6They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,”Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
-------

See what happened there?

Capital punishment got ended. No more of it, for His followers.

That's just indicative of how big changes happened.

In all the world, there had not been such a powerful challenge to how things are, such a profound revolution (instead of merely a confused revolution).

Jesus of Nazareth was revolutionary, radical.

He still is, today. It's still a revolution, and isn't ending yet.

He said only "few" would take the "narrow road" He is telling us to take. His own wording.
 
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Par5

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Wow, forgive me for failing to think you meant to ask me if I would kill children?..... It's just so....vastly far from anything I'd imagine you meant to ask me personally. Myself.

People have to forgive others, else humanity will end in war.

Is it that you really meant to ask me personally if I would kill an infant????

That's so far away from any possible reality that I didn't imagine you were asking me personally.

Of course I would not.

I'm truly surprised you didn't already guess that easily.

Of course, this answer might instantly raise this question to me next: "Are you a pacifist?"

Because of course wars involve inevitably the situation of a lot of innocent people being killed, every time, in every war, without any expectation (I doubt even one in all of history).

Answer: yes, I am, because I'm under then New Covenant established by Christ. I can only take defensive actions, and might have to surrender my mere physical life too, of course!

Now, I'm curious -- what about you? Do you endorse some wars, even though those wars will with complete certainty result in many innocent people, likely also infants too, being killed?

What is your own position?

To understand the idea the rules changed with Christ, consider this very telling passage --

2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?”6They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,”Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
-------

See what happened there?

Capital punishment got ended. No more of it, for His followers.

That's just indicative of how big changes happened.

In all the world, there had not been such a powerful challenge to how things are, such a profound revolution (instead of merely a confused revolution).

Jesus of Nazareth was revolutionary, radical.

He still is, today. It's still a revolution, and isn't ending yet.

He said only "few" would take the "narrow road" He is telling us to take. His own wording.
I never for one minute believed that you would be capable of deliberately killing a child, but now that you have actually stated that fact I believe I can safely assume that you would not do such a thing because you would consider it to be a totally wicked and evil act.
Why is it then, that you choose to worship a being that, according to the bible, instructed its followers to commit such a wicked and evil act.
It's all very well saying that Christians are now under a new covenant, but I have heard Christians claim that their god never changes, so if that is what they believe then the nature of this god is still the same as the one that ordered the killing of men women and children. It would be like overlooking what Hitler had done if he had said, "OK, I know I was responsible for the slaughter of over six million Jews, but hey, I don't do that sort of thing anymore, so give me a break will you!
 
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Halbhh

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I never for one minute believed that you would be capable of deliberately killing a child, but now that you have actually stated that fact I believe I can safely assume that you would not do such a thing because you would consider it to be a totally wicked and evil act.
Why is it then, that you choose to worship a being that, according to the bible, instructed its followers to commit such a wicked and evil act.
It's all very well saying that Christians are now under a new covenant, but I have heard Christians claim that their god never changes, so if that is what they believe then the nature of this god is still the same as the one that ordered the killing of men women and children. It would be like overlooking what Hitler had done if he had said, "OK, I know I was responsible for the slaughter of over six million Jews, but hey, I don't do that sort of thing anymore, so give me a break will you!

It's a very good question you ask.

My answer to it is above in post #17, but I admit that post was long, and may not have seemed it would have an answer in the early paragraphs.

If you would read more through post #17, carefully, not skipping sentences, and thru to the end, you will see me answering this question. But if you feel I did not ask me question(s) about what I wrote there.
 
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Par5

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It's a very good question you ask.

My answer to it is above in post #17, but I admit that post was long, and may not have seemed it would have an answer in the early paragraphs.

If you would read more through post #17, carefully, not skipping sentences, and thru to the end, you will see me answering this question. But if you feel I did not ask me question(s) about what I wrote there.
Oh, but I did read your number 17 post and I'm afraid to say that it just comes across as so much Christian apologetics gobbledygook. Nothing more than excuses for barbarism carried out in the name of the god you believe in. It beggars belief that you can try and put a positive spin on psychopaths butchering infants. And to think that Christians often accuse atheists of being people with no moral compass.
 
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Halbhh

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Oh, but I did read your number 17 post and I'm afraid to say that it just comes across as so much Christian apologetics gobbledygook. Nothing more than excuses for barbarism carried out in the name of the god you believe in. It beggars belief that you can try and put a positive spin on psychopaths butchering infants. And to think that Christians often accuse atheists of being people with no moral compass.
To risk to over simplify post #17 and leave out some pieces, God can see trends better than we can, can know hearts better than we do, and could sometimes know it's best to remove a whole city, 100%, because He can then give the innocents from that city eternal life before they are destroyed by the evil of the city, but now, Since Christ, even that situation of total evil in a city isn't even possible any longer, because of how Christ has altered humanity and changed the world. Regardless, only Christ alone now has the sole authority to Judge humankind. He alone. No one else.
 
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Par5

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To risk to over simplify and leave out some pieces, God can see trends better than we can, can know hearts better than we do, and could sometimes know it's best to remove a whole city, 100%, because He can then give the innocents from that city eternal life before they are destroyed by the evil of the city, but now, Since Christ, even that situation of total evil in a city isn't even possible any longer, because of how Christ has altered humanity and changed the world. Regardless, only Christ alone now has the sole authority to Judge humankind. He alone. No one else.
Ah, but the children will go on to eternal bliss. That is the most insane excuse for mass slaughter I have ever heard. You said yourself you could never deliberately kill a child. I believe you, but have you ever thought what kind of person could go on a killing spree sparing no one, not even infants. You already know what I would call them. What about you?
 
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Halbhh

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Ah, but the children will go on to eternal bliss. That is the most insane excuse for mass slaughter I have ever heard. You said yourself you could never deliberately kill a child. I believe you, but have you ever thought what kind of person could go on a killing spree sparing no one, not even infants. You already know what I would call them. What about you?

Ok. I'm getting it you presume death is final. (New readers see posts #17,'#30)

We're trying to tell you there is a different situation.

All those kids will live forever, source: same as you are relying on here!
 
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Par5

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Ok. I'm getting it you presume death is final. (New readers see posts #17,'#30)

We're trying to tell you there is a different situation.

All those kids will live forever, source: same as you are relying on here!
Whether or not I believe that death is final or that there is an afterlife is not the point. You keep going on about these children living forever, but according to the biblical story, they achieved that by being slaughtered by someone who entered their land with the sole purpose of exterminating them. Now, you have been tap dancing around this question long enough. What kind of person do you think would be capable of such a thing? Is he the kind of person you would ask to babysit for you?
 
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quatona

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Ok. I'm getting it you presume death is final. (New readers see posts #17,'#30)

We're trying to tell you there is a different situation.

All those kids will live forever, source: same as you are relying on here!
So killing a child isn´t really a problem?
 
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Freodin

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If that were impossible, no one could ever play 'Clue' without believing the characters really existed. ^_^
Have you ever called the 911 when someone started a game of Clue? Have you ever tried to bring charges of murder against Colonel Mustard or Professor Plum?

No?

It seems you don't care about justice and are fine with these serial killers still on large.
 
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