In awe of J.Smith ?

[Moodshadow]

Of course. If Joseph's testimony is true and his calling is real, then Christ is the author of the Restoration. If not, then Mormonism is just another man-made religion among many.

Well said.

 

[A New Dawn]

If our scriptures state that Christ is the law and the light, then I would say that Mormonism is indeed a law-based religion. And if Christ is the law, then that is Mormonism. You may rail against it otherwise, but it does not change that fact.

And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. (2 Ne. 25:26-27)
​

Looking to any other law than Christ himself is indeed to seek life from that which is dead. Christ is the law that gives life. He is the source of our salvation. We look to him.

Slaves are the property of others and are such against their own will. Membership in the church is voluntary. Your claim has no basis in fact. And the church's doctrine is that our weakness in keeping the commandments is made strong in and through the grace of Christ as we are humble before him. (Ether 12:27) Again, your claim is short-sighted. We are perfected in Christ by his grace, not by our works. (Moroni 10:32-33) Again, your claim is empty.

People not free in the LDS church. Their salvation is held as ransom. If one doesn't do all that the LDS church requires, they cannot be saved. If one is not free, they are slaves.

On the contrary, I believe that I have represented it well.

Indeed. Christ asks us to keep all his commandments to the best of our ability. That is sufficient for him, and it is an expression of our love for him. (Mosiah 2:22, John 14:15)

As I have already pointed out, the law to which we are subjected is Jesus Christ. And so we do only that which he commands us by virtue of the Holy Ghost. (2 Ne. 32:5-6)

Yes. It is the law of Christ—a living law (word) given by a living Christ, by whom (or by whose word) alone we come to the Father. (D&C 132:12)

Christ fulfilled the law because He knew we couldn't. Christ does give us commandments, which we try our hardest to do out of gratitude for what He has done for us, but our salvation is not held ransom if we fail. That is the difference between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

 

[TasteForTruth]

People not free in the LDS church. Their salvation is held as ransom. If one doesn't do all that the LDS church requires, they cannot be saved. If one is not free, they are slaves.



Christ fulfilled the law because He knew we couldn't. Christ does give us commandments, which we try our hardest to do out of gratitude for what He has done for us, but our salvation is not held ransom if we fail. That is the difference between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

In making your statements you totally dismiss Christ's grace. Why? Are you so desperate to show that the LDS church is salvation by works that you are willing to ignore the obvious fact that it is Christ's grace that perfects and saves us, and that we LDS know it and teach it and believe it? I mean, you're free to believe whatever you want, but here you tell me in your previous post that I misrepresent my own religion, and in your very next post you repeat your already-stated views in total disgregard to evidence that shows them to be in error, or to be only part of the story. There seems to be a real disconnect there, at least I see one. Can you explain why you pick and choose from our doctrines when stating what we believe?

 

[Rescued One]

In making your statements you totally dismiss Christ's grace. Why? Are you so desperate to show that the LDS church is salvation by works that you are willing to ignore the obvious fact that it is Christ's grace that perfects and saves us, and that we LDS know it and teach it and believe it? I mean, you're free to believe whatever you want, but here you tell me in your previous post that I misrepresent my own religion, and in your very next post you repeat your already-stated views in total disgregard to evidence that shows them to be in error, or to be only part of the story. There seems to be a real disconnect there, at least I see one. Can you explain why you pick and choose from our doctrines when stating what we believe?

No matter how you try to present it , LDS teach that obedience to extra-biblical commandments are required in order for one to be justified or, IOW, have eternal life.

 

[Rescued One]

"Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."
Doctrine and Covenants 25:15

"To gain salvation, men must repent and keep the commandments, be born again, cleanse their garments through the blood of Christ, be humble and strip themselves of pride and envy, and do the works of righteousness..."
Introduction to Alma 5

"27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

"28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life."
Alma 5

"That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;"
Doctrine and Covenants 76:52

 

[Moodshadow]

In making your statements you totally dismiss Christ's grace. Why? Are you so desperate to show that the LDS church is salvation by works that you are willing to ignore the obvious fact that it is Christ's grace that perfects and saves us, and that we LDS know it and teach it and believe it? I mean, you're free to believe whatever you want, but here you tell me in your previous post that I misrepresent my own religion, and in your very next post you repeat your already-stated views in total disgregard to evidence that shows them to be in error, or to be only part of the story. There seems to be a real disconnect there, at least I see one. Can you explain why you pick and choose from our doctrines when stating what we believe?

Excuse me for intruding, but when she said this...

Christ fulfilled the law because He knew we couldn't. Christ does give us commandments, which we try our hardest to do out of gratitude for what He has done for us, but our salvation is not held ransom if we fail. That is the difference between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

I believe that grace was the VERY thing to which she was referring.

 

[TasteForTruth]

No matter how you try to present it , LDS teach that obedience to extra-biblical commandments are required in order for one to be justified or, IOW, have eternal life.

We live in an extra-biblical dispensation, and are therefore grateful for God's continuing voice to us. Whatever he commands that may not be found in the Bible, we will strive to do, and we won't shy away from it because others confine God's words to those found only in the Bible.

And LDS doctrine is that we are justified by the Spirit and grace of Christ, not by our works. (Moses 6:60; D&C 20:30) And eternal life is given to those who endure to the end in their faith in Christ—who are humble, penitent, obedient, etc. (2 Ne. 31; Mosiah 3:19) What you present is what I will hereafter call the "laundry list doctrine"—it is not the Restored gospel of Christ.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Excuse me for intruding, but when she said this...

Christ fulfilled the law because He knew we couldn't. Christ does give us commandments, which we try our hardest to do out of gratitude for what He has done for us, but our salvation is not held ransom if we fail. That is the difference between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

I believe that grace was the VERY thing to which she was referring.

Sure, but she was contrasting what she said with Mormonism. See red above...

 

[Moodshadow]

Sure, but she is contrasting what she said with Mormonism. See red above...

You would expect anything else? And she is 100% correct, because in Mormonism "exaltation," which is what the Bible refers to as "SALVATION," is absolutely, 100% dependent upon keeping all those extra-Biblical commandments (and performing all those extra-Biblical ordinances), as has been mentioned before. You might believe that's real doctrine, but those who ascribe to mainstream Christianity - i.e., that which was taught by Jesus Christ in the New Testament - do not.

 

[A New Dawn]

We live in an extra-biblical dispensation, and are therefore grateful for God's continuing voice to us. Whatever he commands that may not be found in the Bible, we will strive to do, and we won't shy away from it because others confine God's words to those found only in the Bible.

And LDS doctrine is that we are justified by the Spirit and grace of Christ, not by our works. (Moses 6:60; D&C 20:30) And eternal life is given to those who endure to the end in their faith in Christ—who are humble, penitent, obedient, etc. (2 Ne. 31; Mosiah 3:19) What you present is what I will hereafter call the "laundry list doctrine"—it is not the Restored gospel of Christ.

What is an "extra-Biblical dispensation"? What we live in is the church age. That is not "extra-Biblical". It is the time alloted by God between the establishment of the church and the 2nd coming of Christ.

But getting back to the "Whatever he commands that may not be found in the Bible, we will strive to do, and we won't shy away from it because others confine God's words to those found only in the Bible" belief, the difference, as I stated earlier, is that the LDS church teaches that it is a requirement that those "commandments" be fulfilled in order for one to attain salvation. According to the Bible, salvation is given to us, and then we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

works ==> salvation - wrong order
salvation ==> works - correct order

 

[TasteForTruth]

You would expect anything else?

I guess if I expect anything it would be that when I share scriptural citations that show that Christ's grace is a pivotal thing in LDS theology—I would expect that people would acknowledge it. That is not what happens, though. It is ignored. Completely ignored.

And she is 100% correct, because in Mormonism "exaltation," which is what the Bible refers to as "SALVATION," is absolutely, 100% dependent upon keeping all those extra-Biblical commandments (and performing all those extra-Biblical ordinances), as has been mentioned before. You might believe that's real doctrine, but those who ascribe to mainstream Christianity do not.

I don't believe it, because it's not the gospel of Christ. So I disagree that she is correct about it being LDS doctrine. Our doctrine is that it is through the grace and mercy and merits of Christ that we are given eternal life (2 Ne. 2:8).

 

[Rescued One]

We live in an extra-biblical dispensation, and are therefore grateful for God's continuing voice to us. Whatever he commands that may not be found in the Bible, we will strive to do, and we won't shy away from it because others confine God's words to those found only in the Bible.

And LDS doctrine is that we are justified by the Spirit and grace of Christ, not by our works. (Moses 6:60; D&C 20:30)

LDS: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."
3rd Article of Faith by Joseph Smith

Bible: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Bible: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:1

LDS: “The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil.”
James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 480

LDS:

While Latter-day Saints do not accept the "faith alone" doctrine, we also do not accept the "saved by works" doctrine that our critics try to put upon us. The reason we do not believe that faith alone will save us, is because that principle, besides being unbiblical, would destroy the principle of repentance.

fairlds.org

And eternal life is given to those who endure to the end in their faith in Christ—who are humble, penitent, obedient, etc. (2 Ne. 31; Mosiah 3:19) What you present is what I will hereafter call the "laundry list doctrine"—it is not the Restored gospel of Christ.

The Gospel (faith) which was once delivered unto the saints did not have to be restored because it was never lost.

Your bogus or mistaken suggestion about obedience not being a requirement for salvation according to LDS teachings is just that --- bogus or mistaken.

 

[TasteForTruth]

LDS: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."
3rd Article of Faith by Joseph Smith

Bible: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Bible: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:1

LDS: “The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil.”
James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 480

LDS:
fairlds.org

The Gospel (faith) which was once delivered unto the saints did not have to be restored because it was never lost.

Your bogus or mistaken suggestion about obedience not being a requirement for salvation according to LDS teachings is just that --- bogus or mistaken.

My statement that you quoted and called "bogus or mistaken," emphasis added:

And LDS doctrine is that we are justified by the Spirit and grace of Christ, not by our works. (Moses 6:60; D&C 20:30) And eternal life is given to those who endure to the end in their faith in Christ—who are humble, penitent, obedient, etc. (2 Ne. 31; Mosiah 3:19) What you present is what I will hereafter call the "laundry list doctrine"—it is not the Restored gospel of Christ.

If you will notice, there was nothing bogus or mistaken about my doctrinally-correct statement.

What I believe is bogus is any presentation of LDS theology that doesn't correctly credit the intercessory grace of Jesus Christ as the hinge upon which eternal life swings. (2 Ne. 2:8-9; 10:24; 25:23) Do your presentations of LDS theology speak of our beliefs on grace?

 

[Rescued One]

Do your presentations of LDS theology speak of our beliefs on grace?

LDS teachings do not line up with salvation apart from works. Works are the result of the new birth; the outpouring of a heart changed by God and they do not contribute to one's salvation.

As A New Dawn said:

Christ fulfilled the law because He knew we couldn't. Christ does give us commandments, which we try our hardest to do out of gratitude for what He has done for us, but our salvation is not held ransom if we fail. That is the difference between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

 

[Rescued One]

Our doctrine is that it is through the grace and mercy and merits of Christ that we are given eternal life (2 Ne. 2:8).

LDS teach that it is through the grace and mercy and merits of Christ that mortals are given eternal life if they deserve it. It isn't only because of Christ. Christ died on the cross, but only the obedient followers of Joseph Smith and Christ go to the Celestial Kingdom.


But to be resurrected and immortal is not all that is required for entrance into eternal life in the kingdom of God. Eternal life in the kingdom of God is far beyond his universal gift of immortality and is God’s greatest gift to all mankind; it can only be brought about through obedience to the doctrines and commandments taught by Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6.) He said, “… no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” This is the Lord’s way, and coming unto the Father is a divine and sacred gift that must be merited.
Bernard P. Brockbank, “Entrance into the Kingdom of God,” Ensign, Jan. 1973, p. 44

Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality.
- Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14

Individual salvation is "...that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 134

Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us.
- Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 208



Explain that these verses teach that we are the children of God and we are his heirs. We can inherit eternal life, which is the kind of life that God lives. God will allow us to share the same knowledge and glory that he possesses. But God has established conditions we must meet if we are to inherit eternal life.

• Where can we find the conditions we must meet? (In the scriptures, the teachings of the modern prophets, the teachings of our parents, our Church meetings.)

Explain that these conditions are the commandments God gives to us. These commandments show us the way to be as happy as possible in this life and to inherit eternal life in the life to come.

Help the young women understand that there is nothing greater or more wonderful than the kind of life God lives. We cannot even imagine the joy and beauty of that life. Keeping the commandments is worth all the effort it requires because only by doing so can we become like our Father and inherit eternal life.
“Lesson 1: God the Father,” Young Women Manual 3, p. 2


If we were not like him and if it were possible under those circumstances to be in his presence, we would feel completely out of place, wouldn’t we? But, of course, to come to him in that way is impossible.

To develop traits of character like his is not without effort. We must realize that it is a process of growth and comes only by making his gospel a way of life.

We cannot be halfhearted about it either. We must serve him with all our heart, might, mind, and soul. And we must remember too that being active in the Church is a part of his gospel. The Lord said emphatically: “Every person who belongeth to this church of Christ, shall observe to keep all the commandments and covenants of the church.” (D&C 42:78.)
Mark E. Petersen, “Eternal Togetherness,” Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 48


Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality.
- Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14

 

[TasteForTruth]

LDS teachings do not line up with salvation apart from works.

They don't have to. The issue is that many here claim that grace plays no role, or no major role in salvation in LDS theology.

 

[Rescued One]

They don't have to.

They do have to in order to be accepted as correct teachings by Evangelical Christians. Buddhist teachings are not in agreement with Ephesians 2:8-9 either. But no one has argued that LDS or Buddhists or followers of other religions are not allowed to believe what they believe.


Unorthodox Theology A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity

 

[TasteForTruth]

LDS teach that it is through the grace and mercy and merits of Christ that mortals are given eternal life if they deserve it. It isn't only because of Christ. Christ died on the cross, but only the obedient followers of Joseph Smith and Christ go to the Celestial Kingdom.


But to be resurrected and immortal is not all that is required for entrance into eternal life in the kingdom of God. Eternal life in the kingdom of God is far beyond his universal gift of immortality and is God’s greatest gift to all mankind; it can only be brought about through obedience to the doctrines and commandments taught by Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6.) He said, “… no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” This is the Lord’s way, and coming unto the Father is a divine and sacred gift that must be merited.
Bernard P. Brockbank, “Entrance into the Kingdom of God,” Ensign, Jan. 1973, p. 44

Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality.
- Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14

Individual salvation is "...that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel."
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 134

Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us.
- Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 208



Explain that these verses teach that we are the children of God and we are his heirs. We can inherit eternal life, which is the kind of life that God lives. God will allow us to share the same knowledge and glory that he possesses. But God has established conditions we must meet if we are to inherit eternal life.

• Where can we find the conditions we must meet? (In the scriptures, the teachings of the modern prophets, the teachings of our parents, our Church meetings.)

Explain that these conditions are the commandments God gives to us. These commandments show us the way to be as happy as possible in this life and to inherit eternal life in the life to come.

Help the young women understand that there is nothing greater or more wonderful than the kind of life God lives. We cannot even imagine the joy and beauty of that life. Keeping the commandments is worth all the effort it requires because only by doing so can we become like our Father and inherit eternal life.
“Lesson 1: God the Father,” Young Women Manual 3, p. 2


If we were not like him and if it were possible under those circumstances to be in his presence, we would feel completely out of place, wouldn’t we? But, of course, to come to him in that way is impossible.

To develop traits of character like his is not without effort. We must realize that it is a process of growth and comes only by making his gospel a way of life.

We cannot be halfhearted about it either. We must serve him with all our heart, might, mind, and soul. And we must remember too that being active in the Church is a part of his gospel. The Lord said emphatically: “Every person who belongeth to this church of Christ, shall observe to keep all the commandments and covenants of the church.” (D&C 42:78.)
Mark E. Petersen, “Eternal Togetherness,” Ensign, Nov. 1974, p. 48


Immortality connotes life without end. Eternal life, on the other hand, connotes quality of life — exaltation, the highest type of immortality, the kind of life enjoyed by God himself. It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality.
- Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14

No one, save Jesus only, has ever lived a life that by itself could earn the right to return to the presence of God... Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual : Enrichment E - Overcoming Sin and Obtaining Forgiveness
​

And no one ever will.

Paul’s suggestion [in Romans 4] is that if a man were justified by the works of the law, then he would have reason to glory, for then the reward he received from the Father would be a debt owed for services rendered and not a gift of grace. But, of course, this was not the case. No man could earn salvation on his own. This shattered the Jewish concept that somehow one could earn God’s pleasure and eternal glory through obedience to the law. In this connection, it is interesting to note that even the very terminology the Lord uses makes it clear that nothing man could have done himself would have earned for him the celestial kingdom. Whenever the Lord speaks of his glory and kingdom being transmitted to man, the verb used is inherit and the noun is gift. While there is no suggestion that the gift is given unconditionally, that it is a gift is always clear. The Doctrine and Covenants illustrates that balance perfectly. “If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.” ( D&C 6:13 .) The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles : 39 - "Man is Justified By Faith""Man is Justified By Faith"
​

Salvation is a gift, not a wage, no matter what we do. Hopefully that will help clarify what the quotes you shared mean.

 

[TasteForTruth]

They do have to in order to be accepted as correct teachings by Evangelical Christians. Buddhist teachings are not in agreement with Ephesians 2:8-9 either. But no one has argued that LDS or Buddhists or followers of other religions are not allowed to believe what they believe.

The issue is not whether or not they're accepted by this or that religion group, and it never has been. The issue is that there are those here who pass off their "laundry-list theology" as LDS doctrine, and it is not LDS doctrine.

Unorthodox Theology A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity

Yes, I know where we are. And I am grateful that LDS theology is not wholly harmonious with evangelical Christian doctrine. All I want is for evangelical Christians to get it right when they tell others what LDS doctrine is. That is all I have ever wanted here.

 

[Moodshadow]

I don't believe it, because it's not the gospel of Christ. So I disagree that she is correct about it being LDS doctrine. Our doctrine is that it is through the grace and mercy and merits of Christ that we are given eternal life (2 Ne. 2:8).

Well, call me weird, because I happen to agree that Mormonism teaches that grace is an important - yes, even pivotal, to use your word - doctrine. However, that in no way takes those pesky commandments and ordinances out of the picture; they are ADDED by Mormonism and in fact REQUIRED by Mormonism for exaltation - over and above and even BEFORE Christ's grace - and that's where the doctrinal waters get seriously polluted.

2 Nephi 25:23.

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Addendum: When a religion has the audacity to say or even imply that the grace of Christ is somehow insufficient and must be added to by anything at all, much less something so contrived as manmade commandments and ordinances fashioned after Masonic rites, then there's something terribly, seriously wrong.