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In awe of J.Smith ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mannysee, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. VolRaider

    VolRaider Regular Member

    +51
    Methodist
    Married
    I've always thought of the Mormon prophet being a little like the Catholic Pope, although wielding maybe a little more power than the Pope, who has to confer with Ecumenical Councils although retaining infallibility.
    "Praise to the Man" is way over the top. There is no way I would sing that, even if I DID convert to Mormonism.

    I know Mormons have to accept Smith's word. Mormons realize if there is any doubt in any part of what he said, then the whole church is false. The Mormon Church is built entirely on his word, much like Islam is built on Mohammed's.
     
  2. awakened777

    awakened777 Newbie

    159
    +126
    Calvinist
    Single
    The Mormon religion is a joke I mean are they serious.
     
  3. Vanhin

    Vanhin Senior Member

    +22
    Mormon
    Married

    Hello utmtsumethodist,

    Latter-day saints believe that revelation and the priesthood authority that the apostles held has been restored to the earth. We believe that Jesus Christ himself personally leads this church by way of direct revelation, through his authorized servants, as He did anciently.

    Joseph Smith, like Moses in his time, communed with God and received instructions concerning the kingdom of God on earth for our day. We honor him as the first prophet of this last dispensation, however, unlike Islam he is not the "last" prophet nor is his canonized revelations alone the word of the Lord unto us. The words of the Old and New Testament constitute binding scripture to us as well as the other scriptures we have, and we quite comfortably teach and learn our doctrines from all of those volumes of holy writings. We simply do not think it absurd or unnecessary that God calls prophets in our day, since the biblical record clearly demonstrates that that is how God deals with mankind on earth. He's always done it that way.
    Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)
    The delegated priesthood authority of Christ on this earth, was not vested in just one person. Joseph Smith transferred the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom to others, which the resurrected Peter, James, and John had bestowed up him. As the chief apostle, we call Joseph Smith a prophet, but the truth is, we sustain all apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. Any doctrine or scripture that becomes binding upon members of the Church, is unanimously determined by all the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles, before it is added to our open canon.

    After the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, the senior most remaining apostle was Brigham Young. A few years afterward, Brigham Young re-organized the First Presidency, and new apostles were call to fill the ranks, and that is how it has been since then. The senior most apostle (time in office, not age) has been sustained as the President of the Church. When the First Presidency is organized, the President is the only mortal on earth authorized to direct the use of all the priesthood. In circumstances when the President dies, that authority is held by the remaining apostles under the direction of the senior apostle.

    The Lord's kingdom is a kingdom of order. That priesthood authority is then delegated down throughout the Church at various levels all the way to the family, which is the basic organizational unit of the Church. All worthy men in the Church hold the priesthood, and receive it by oath and covenant, to bless the lives of their families and neighbors wherever they may be in the world. The same priesthood is held by the Bishops, who by revelation call and set apart teachers and officers within the congregations to serve in various capacities. Men, women, and children teach, preach, and exhort one another in doctrines of the kingdom, and thus we have a priesthood of all believers, a royal priesthood - the purpose being to come to a unity of faith in the household of God.

    So from Christ down to individuals in families, we seek to perfect the saints, and be of one heart and of one mind.
    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


    14 That we
    henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head,
    even Christ: (Eph. 4:11-15)

    If you were able to stick with me through all that, I thank you. :)

    Regards,
    Vanhin
     
  4. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,010
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    This is what the LDS teach about the Bible:

    24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

    25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

    26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

    27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

    28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

    29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

    Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29



    Joseph Smith taught that “many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled” (History of the Church, 1:245.)
    He also said that the Bible was correct as “it came from
    the pen of the original writers,” but that “ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors”
    (History of the Church, 6:57.)

    Book of Mormon Student Manual, Chapter 4, p. 29

    There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)
    http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp

    Examples of re-interpreting the Bible:

    Celestial marriage refers to a type of marriage which Mormons believe is intended to last beyond the grave and through eternity. "Celestial" means "heavenly," and indeed, a celestial marriage is a heavenly marriage. This does not indicate a marriage that takes place in heaven, but rather a kind of marriage that is heavenly in nature; it is divine in its origin and potential.

    Mormons assert that for a celestial marriage to occur, several key steps must be followed. First, the man and woman must be sealed, or bound, by one holding the authority of God to perform such sealings, which can only take place in Mormon temples.


    http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/mormon/marriage/

    Bible:
    Matthew 22 (KJV)
    23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Joseph Smith evidently studied the scriptures and invented his own religious requirements:

    Doctrine and Covenants 131
    15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

    16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

    17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

    18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

    ____________

    Bible:
    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    Isaiah 43:

    LDS Response from fairmormon.org:
    Whether this passage is referring to false idols who represent deities that do not exist, or whether it refers to real divine beings who exist alongside and subordinate to Yahweh is not crucial for responding to this particular criticism. The passage specifically says "before" and "after" Yahweh. Since Yahweh has always existed, and since He will always exist no man can ever be exalted "before" or "after" Yahweh. All men who are exalted to godhood will be contemporaries of Yahweh, and will never precede nor follow Yahweh's existence. They will also become part of the divine council over which he presides.

    Brigham Young:

    We understand that we are to be made kings and Priests unto God; now if I be made the king and lawgiver to my family, and if I have many sons, I shall become the father of many fathers, for they will have sons, and their sons will have sons, and so on, from generation to generation, and, in this way, I may become the father of many fathers, or the king of many kings. This will constitute every man a prince, king, lord, or whatever the Father sees fit to confer upon us.
    In this way we can become King of kings, and Lord of lords, or Father of fathers, or Prince of princes, and this is the only course, for another man is not going to raise up a kingdom for you.

    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 265-266


    Joseph Fielding Smith:
    " 'Parents will have eternal claim upon their posterity and will have the gift of eternal increase, if they obtain exaltation.... a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go to an earth like this one... There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring."
    Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Church Educational System, 1986

    Doctrine and Covenants 132:20
    Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.


    This clearly shows that Christians ought to be reading their Bibles on a daily basis!

    2 Timothy 2
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Psalm 119
    11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

    Proverbs 2
    5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

    7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2011
  5. Vanhin

    Vanhin Senior Member

    +22
    Mormon
    Married
    Hi Phoebe,

    Did you have a point/argument that I should respond to? Mind summarizing your point? Kind of like I did where you make your point and then provide reference. You know what I mean?

    Regards,
    Vanhin
     
  6. alfonsobonetti

    alfonsobonetti Newbie

    334
    +3
    Mormon
    Single
    It doesn't help your case to misrepresent LDS and LDS Theology and to then attack it. It is what is called a "strawman" in which you built up something in a weak manner that is then easily torn down.

    Frankly, what you have said the opposite is actually true. Mormonism is the only religion that has a basis of "facts" and truth related to it, while the rest of the religions of the world are based on feelings and mans interpretations thrown in.

    Everyone and every religion has an intellectual and feeling based aspect to it. The question really is is which one is really the "true" one and has the "true" feelings about it in relation to ALL of it's teachings. Calling mormons stupid however doesn't help. Mormonisms chief claims are "truth" based, not feeling based. We don't call ourselves the "True Church" for nothing. Everything about us is getting at the REAL TRUTH, rather than the doctrines of men mingled with the doctrines of God as other religions do.

    From the very beginning of the Church from Joseph Smith on when he went to the grove and asked God to show him the truth, to help him find it. The truth is arrived by by study and by faith. And the Holy Ghost helps in that process. Every single mormon since does the same exact thing to know the truth. So, don't tell us who's "feeling" based.
     
  7. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

    +7,013
    Calvinist
    Married
    I don't think I saw him call Mormons stupid. Can you point out where he did?

    Secondly, there is no foundational fact inherent in Mormonism. It is all based on suppositions and misleadings. So, yes, it is all emotion-laden. There is no manuscript for the BoM or the PoGP, there is no truth in the foundations event of the apostasy and restoration. God promised to never leave or forsake the church, and He didn't. The LDS priesthood is not the same as the Biblical priesthood, and, in fact, contradicts what the Bible says about the priesthood. The Bible says not to take secret oaths (which is also the main point of the book of Ether in the BoM), yet the LDS temples are full of them.

    Perhaps you can point out a few places where the LDS church is built on facts, since most of us don't see it.
     
  8. Moodshadow

    Moodshadow Veteran

    +132
    Methodist
    Married
    Your use of the quotation marks around the word facts here is very appropriate, according to the following rule, taken from the Purdue Online Writing Lab website:

    Quotation marks may additionally be used to indicate words used ironically or with some reservation.

    The great march of "progress" has left millions impoverished and hungry.

    If ever, in the entire history of mankind, there was a religion "
    based on feelings and mans interpretations thrown in," it is Mormonism. It is a fact (a real one) that Joseph Smith manufactured most of it, and it has changed and evolved to such a degree since then that he would hardly recognize it now. It is also a fact that investigators are actually taught to base their decision to join on pure, very subjective feelings.
     
  9. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

    +34
    Mormon
    Married
    Alfonsobonetti, while I don't agree with the tactics that many in this forum use to make their arguments against the Restoration, I strongly disagree that all other religions in the world have no basis in fact, or that they are as devoid of truth as you make it sound. My experience has been that the more I have learned about other religions, the more truths I have found in them—truths that are also emobdied in the restored gospel of Christ. In fact, in some cases the lines that separate these religions from my own are truly thin and few, in my opinion. And the fact that other religions possess truth doesn't threaten the restored gospel in any way. Rather it makes the world a better place for everyone, at least when peoples who possess truth are themselves true to those truths, which would include us LDS.

    Speaking from sad personal experience, I'd offer that it profits little to get your feathers too ruffled by the empty claims that you'll see get tossed about in this forum to oppose the Restoration. Because in the end they're just that—empty. And the truth will not fall to them. Just as one example (and I don't mean to single out Moodshadow personally; I use her statement because I think it fits my point well) look at this statement:

    This statement claims that it is a fact that most of the Restoration was manufactured by Joseph Smith, with additional emphasis added to the claim's factuality by the phrase, "a real one." That's a pretty bold, cut-and-dry claim. And no doubt Moodshadow believes that she has good reasons to make the claim she does. But where is the evidential support for her statement? What is the fact of which she speaks? Or, if it is a collection of facts, what are they? Moodshadow does not offer them—just her opinion. And her opinion has no more bearing on the truth and divinity of the Restoration than does mine, or yours, or anyone else's. Were she to actually present a fact, or facts, then we could at least examine them, and then possibly come to a greater understanding of why she says what she says.

    Anyway, the point is that the truth will always stand. And those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will not be shielded from it. Granted, their progress toward it may be retarded from time to time by such empty claims as I've highlighted above, but the truth will eventually be left standing for them to see. This applies also to the truth in other religions. It, too, will stand, while whatever errors the peoples of the world embrace and perpetuate—they will eventually fall.

    Welcome to the forum, by the way. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  10. Moodshadow

    Moodshadow Veteran

    +132
    Methodist
    Married
    Of course you meant to single me out, which is exactly, precisely why you did that very thing. In this instance, however, I don't mind being held up as your example, because no one else spoke up, and it certainly needed doing.

    A clause requires a subject and a predicate. Since "a real one" has neither of the above, it is but a lowly phrase.

    As is your frequent custom, you totally added to/changed what I said when you referred to my remarks. Any time you're going to give me either blame or credit, I will thank you to give me, at the very least, the common courtesy of quoting me accurately. Please.
     
  11. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

    +34
    Mormon
    Married
    No. I singled out a statement in the thread that I felt was a good example of a point I was making, and I stated so very clearly in my post. It's unfortunate that you have chosen to deny the truthfulness of that statement, but I have no control over your doing so.

    Your original words:
    My quote:
    This clause encapsulates an idea that is not, in my opinion, dependent on the clauses on either side of it for either comprehension or clarification. Therefore, to take it and quote it as-is does not add to its meaning, take away from its meaning, nor change its meaning in any way. Taken either with the surrounding clauses or by itself, it speaks the same message to me—that Joseph Smith manufactured most of the Restoration, and that this is factual. If you feel that my use of the term "Restoration" in place of "Mormonism" somehow changes the meaning of what you said, then I voluntarily offer to re-insert your original word, as I do not believe that it changes what you said in any way. I chose "Restoration" over "Mormonism" as a matter of personal preference, nothing more. If beyond that you still feel that I have erred in my interpretation of your words, you are free at all times to correct my error and clarify what you meant.


    P.S. Thanks for the pointer on clauses vs. phrases. I'm always looking for ways to improve the intelligibility of my words. I've implemented that change in my original comment, and when I did so I noticed that I had failed to hyphenate "cut-and-dry." So double kudos to you. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  12. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,010
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    "Everything about us is getting at the REAL TRUTH, rather than the doctrines of men mingled with the doctrines of God as other religions do."

    And what is the method LDS use to get at what they define as "REAL TRUTH?"

    Moroni 10:5 says "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

    Most of us would agree.

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7530005/

    But what perrfekt was saying agrees with your Doctrine and Covenants:

    Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
    But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
    But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong…
    Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9

    And since the Holy Spirit is He who will lead the Sheep of Christ into all truth, your claim that we are following the doctrines of men is rather bogus, because you can't prove that I or perrfekt is without the Holy Spirit.

    These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
    Acts 17:11


    If truth is known in the way you describe, and a non-LDS disagrees with your doctrine after applying these principles, is the non-LDS wrong?

    "...if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right."

    If the investigator who is listening to LDS missionaries, receives a "revelation and burning bosom" about the Book of Mormon is he obligated to join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or risk being cut off from further "revelation of truth?"
     
  13. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,010
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Thank you for your accurate information.
     
  14. Moodshadow

    Moodshadow Veteran

    +132
    Methodist
    Married

    Kudos, schmudos. What you re-quoted is not the statement I made that you paraphrased at all. But I'm done with that - all this nit-picking, including the oh-so-gracious part about clauses and phrases and hyphens, is just avoidance of the discussion of the substance at hand. Having a real discussion with you is like trying to shovel jackrabbits onto a flatbed truck; you simply do not stay on topic but instead go off on tangents, changing oh-so-subtly (or not) to whatever you'd rather be discussing instead in order (ostensibly, anyway) to exhibit your erudition. How do you feel about this?
     
  15. DanuckInUSA

    DanuckInUSA Newbie

    183
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    Joseph who?
     
  16. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

    +34
    Mormon
    Married
    I feel like any response I give will be suspect in some way.
     
  17. Moodshadow

    Moodshadow Veteran

    +132
    Methodist
    Married
    And yet you posted one anyway? Of what am I supposed to suspect you, when you've yet to say anything of substance? :confused:
     
  18. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

    +34
    Mormon
    Married
    Of course I posted anyway. That was the courteous thing to do, even though it felt like a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't scenario.
    Well, you appear to have found my hitherto substance-free posts suspect, albeit still worthy of your focused attention. So why should it matter that I say anything of substance?
     
  19. skylark1

    skylark1 In awesome wonder

    +231
    Christian
    What did TasteForTruth add or change when he referred to your comments? How did he quote you inaccurately? Even though he expressed his objections to what you had written, I thought that he had quoted you accurately. Maybe it would help if you would explain.
     
  20. alfonsobonetti

    alfonsobonetti Newbie

    334
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    Single
    Calling mormon judgments only "emotion" based and not at all fact and information based, and not based on good and intelligent judgment, IS calling a people and a religion "stupid". Indirectly so, but directly implied.

    Not true. If your judgment was true I wouldn't be a mormon. Your statement is true about your religions however in my experienced and learned opinion.

    Only critics judgments and judgments of the Bible are suppositions and misleadings NOT the "whole truth". I know you believe otherwise, but I've been in your religions, and I have seen for myself from the Bible otherwise. Mormonism take all your religions incompleteness of Biblical doctrine and makes it whole.

    Yes there is to the last part, you not knowing and not understanding is not the same as "not existing". As to your first statement, there ARE other evidences which demonstrate it's validity. There also are no "manuscripts" of the Bible either. After all, much of the words therein were received by Revelation also, before written down. They are not all "letters" written by leaders back then. Much of the book is recorded revelation, and a prophet received and then wrote down just like Joseph Smith. Why do you think "old" somehow means valid? Do you really think copies of copies of copies over and over somehow means "from God"? 2000 years from now the Book of Mormon will be the same, copies of copies of copies. Revelation from God is revelation from God. Old copies/manuscripts do not make truth.

    That is not what the scriptures actually say on the subject. You are adding your traditional historical christian tradition understanding to the Bibles words. Did God "forsake" the Jews even though they were in Apostasy when Christ was on the earth? No. God is there no matter the state of the current "physical" and authorized Church on the earth or not. Spiritually with the light of Christ to all who seek it, he did not forsake the righteous. So, you are right in that. But, you are wrong in trying to transfer that idea into the physical and authoritative Church which is only ran by God's "authorized" servants.

    It does not. Your lack of understanding of all the aspects of the Priesthood indicated in the Bible, and embracing man-made evangelical traditions is not the same as mormonism contradicting what the Bible actually says. Case in point, I knew what the Bible said before being mormon, and I knew other religions were not practicing what the Bible "in full" and accurately said.

    You are misrepresenting the Bible case in this issue, because of your lack of understanding of what the Bible in full says on the matter. One verse quoted while ignoring other verses that relate to the subject does not a doctrine make.

    Only those who seek shall find. I can lead you to water but I can't force you to drink. You know what you should do if you really wanted to understand, to test if your current judgments are accurate. You know the works you should study, the places you should go, the people you should talk to and learn from. I can't compel you to do that. A message board is not the place to quote lists of facts. There are other places that you can go to read to learn that. That's up to you, not I.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
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