In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

[dms1972]

On the understanding that we are dealing here with a hypothetical, and much of how pastoral conversations unfold depends on the person concerned, I can say some things.

One is that if someone is talking about compulsion, that is a red flag around possible mental health issues. So no matter what else I did, I'd probably suggest that they see their doctor for a mental health check in general.

Another is identifying what the issue is for the person. It sounds as if their driving concern, as you have framed it, is not sex or sexuality or even questions of morality, but anxiety around feeling out of control. That would be something to explore and find out what's at the root of that.

I would probably want to explore with them - since they'd come to a priest, after all - whether they were a Christian, and how they understood this compulsion in relation to their faith. That might include any combination of prayer/exploring Scripture/pastoral conversation etc. I would be open to hearing their confession, if asked. (I don't generally suggest confession to someone in a first conversation, but it's not off the table from my point of view).

If this bill became law where I am, I do not believe it would make any difference to helping such a person, because I wouldn't see trying to "make them straight" as my aim.

That said, I have literally never had a pastoral conversation with someone which came anywhere close to this. The overriding pastoral issue I see with same-sex attracted people is a sense of shame so overwhelming that they believe themselves beyond God's love and grace. Much of my work is helping them to realise that God's arms are always open to them.

Thanks for answering, yes its a purely hypothetical scenario and I agree that how to proceed would depend to a considerable extent on how the pastoral conversation went and any leading the Holy Spirit might give. I do take your concerns on board as to the need for good practice and to remind people they can come to God in repentance through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[creslaw]

You made a false statement, and I corrected it.

... you were forced into acknowledging that "blessing" ceremonies can proceed ... and of course many people see no difference ... in my church couples are married legally in the registry office before the ceremony in the church sanctuary.

btw, don't you have something more useful to do with your time than to spend all day arguing with a house bound old man

 

[Paidiske]

... you were forced into acknowledging that "blessing" ceremonies can proceed ...

Not in most places, though. To the best of my knowledge, at most two dioceses have approved such a thing, out of twenty-three.

btw, don't you have something more useful to do with your time than to spend all day arguing with a house bound old man

Today I have taken a funeral, prepared a sermon, done some administration, provided support to a colleague, and organised things for upcoming services.

What can I say, I'm efficient.

But this discussion is "useful." It's important that there be some people within the Christian community willing to stand up in support of safety for vulnerable people.

 

[creslaw]

Joe Bloggs: I believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Would you pray for me that God will take away my homosexual feelings?

Pastor A: Sorry, John, I can't do that because it is illegal.

Pastor B: God bless you John, I sure will even if I end up in jail because God's Word is paramount.

 

[creslaw]

But this discussion is "useful." It's important that there be some people within the Christian community willing to stand up in support of safety for vulnerable people.

"Vulnerable people" obviously does not include those who are seeking help to live according to their faith, nor those who offer help & support to them.

 

[Paidiske]

Joe Bloggs: I believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Would you pray for me that God will take away my homosexual feelings?

Pastor A: Sorry, John, I can't do that because it is illegal.

Pastor B: God bless you John, I sure will even if I end up in jail because God's Word is paramount.

Pastor C: Holy God, I thank you for Joe. I thank you for creating him, a good part of your good creation. I thank you for the gifts you've given him, and the faith and trust he places in you. I thank you that you love him, and that he can come to you no matter what burdens him, knowing that you are always there for him.
I pray that you would be with him in this matter, that you would help him to grow in grace and faith and love. That you would help him to know your will, and to live according to it. That you would be at work in his mind and heart, healing and making whole whatever needs setting to rights. And that Joe would know your comfort and your peace.
And I ask all of this in Jesus' precious name, Amen.

No attempt at conversion, but a bringing of Joe to God in faith and hope and trust.

"Vulnerable people" obviously does not include those who are seeking help to live according to their faith, nor those who offer help & support to them.

Vulnerable people includes anyone who might be harmed by poor pastoral care, and at different times in our lives, could be any one of us.

 

[creslaw]

Pastor C: Holy God, I thank you for Joe. I thank you for creating him, a good part of your good creation. I thank you for the gifts you've given him, and the faith and trust he places in you. I thank you that you love him, and that he can come to you no matter what burdens him, knowing that you are always there for him.
I pray that you would be with him in this matter, that you would help him to grow in grace and faith and love. That you would help him to know your will, and to live according to it. That you would be at work in his mind and heart, healing and making whole whatever needs setting to rights. And that Joe would know your comfort and your peace.
And I ask all of this in Jesus' precious name, Amen.

No attempt at conversion, but a bringing of Joe to God in faith and hope and trust.



Vulnerable people includes anyone who might be harmed by poor pastoral care, and at different times in our lives, could be any one of us.

The prayer totally fails to acknowledge John's specific feelings and needs which are personal & individual ... it is vague & evasive, designed to keep the pastor out of trouble with the law, so also cowardly.

And no attempt at conversation with John so that he will feel his struggle is recognized & understood and fully supported by the Church.

But not bad for an Anglican though ...

 

[Paidiske]

The prayer totally fails to acknowledge John's specific feelings and needs which are personal & individual ... it is vague & evasive, designed to keep the pastor out of trouble with the law, so also cowardly.

If it is vague, it is vague to allow space for God to decide what's important in Joe's life, where he needs to grow and heal. Not cowardly so much as having the humility to realise that we don't set the agenda, the Holy Spirit does.

As for specific feelings and needs, you gave me a one-line hypothetical. In real life I'd have actually met and listened to this person for some time before trying to respond in prayer.

And no attempt at conversation with John so that he will feel his struggle is recognized & understood and fully supported by the Church.

Amazingly enough, no one would just pray that and bundle him out the door. My point was simply to illustrate that Joe's needs can (and should) be met without engaging in anything which would cross the line into conversion therapy.

 

[creslaw]

If it is vague, it is vague to allow space for God to decide what's important in Joe's life, where he needs to grow and heal. Not cowardly so much as having the humility to realise that we don't set the agenda, the Holy Spirit does.

As for specific feelings and needs, you gave me a one-line hypothetical. In real life I'd have actually met and listened to this person for some time before trying to respond in prayer.



Amazingly enough, no one would just pray that and bundle him out the door. My point was simply to illustrate that Joe's needs can (and should) be met without engaging in anything which would cross the line into conversion therapy.

And it does not seem to worry you that pastors have to juggle their words cautiously & carefully so they do not cross the line ... or perhaps they can just recite a prayer written for every occasion. That probably feels comfortable from your church background but is so at odds with heartfelt, spontaneous prayer in many other churches.

Your concern for "vulnerable people" does you credit, and I am sure you have helped some, but I am equally sure that you are unaware of the harm you cause among those who have a strong conviction, a Biblical faith, and a clear leading from the Holy Spirit that homosexuality is wrong & sinful. I am very glad God lead me to a RC priest who was able to give me full acknowledgment of my feelings, and compassionately pray for my specific needs. What he did to help & support me in those months will become criminal under the proposed law.

 

[Paidiske]

And it does not seem to worry you that pastors have to juggle their words cautiously & carefully so they do not cross the line

It would worry me far more if pastors thought they didn't have to juggle their words cautiously and carefully, aware always of the power differential in the pastoral relationship and their potential to harm with a careless choice of words.

.. or perhaps they can just recite a prayer written for every occasion. That probably feels comfortable from your church background but is so at odds with heartfelt, spontaneous prayer in many other churches.

There is space and need for both pre-written and extempore prayers on different occasions.

but I am equally sure that you are unaware of the harm you cause among those who have a strong conviction, a Biblical faith, and a clear leading from the Holy Spirit that homosexuality is wrong & sinful.

I do not believe I am doing such people in my care harm, since I don't challenge such conviction, but if you can demonstrate how you think that would be so, I am willing to listen.

What he did to help & support me in those months will become criminal under the proposed law.

Then maybe you ought to consider that its impact on someone different from yourself may have been less helpful than it was for you.

 

[creslaw]

Then maybe you ought to consider that its impact on someone different from yourself may have been less helpful than it was for you.

I have previously acknowledged that in a previous post ... the pastor should respond to the specific requests of the person, not impose their own bias ... which we all have. I said I would willingly send someone to you who wanted your sort of support.

Refusing to address the specific feelings & needs of the person because you think God's plan for them might be something else, is not only arrogant but lacking in compassion. The approach you describe consistently evades the real struggle of the person I once was and leaves them feeling not understood and not respected. In fact it can leave them feeling despondent and even suicidal.

Of course it is impossible for you to recognize that your approach can cause harm to some vulnerable people .. even when they tell you it is so.

 

[Paidiske]

I have previously acknowledged that in a previous post ... the pastor should respond to the specific requests of the person, not impose their own bias ... which we all have. I said I would willingly send someone to you who wanted your sort of support.

The difficulty I have with this is that you don't know what my "sort of support" is. In fact support needs to be tailored to each person, I agree.

That does not mean that there aren't things which are inappropriate, no matter what.

Refusing to address the specific feelings & needs of the person ...

That's not what anyone is advocating.

The approach you describe consistently evades the real struggle of the person In fact it leaves them feeling despondent and even suicidal.

Not at all. Look, we're posting backwards and forwards on a forum; there is no way here to replicate a pastoral conversation in all its depth, complexity, and personal interaction. And you cannot, from posts here, decide you know how people would feel after an hour or more spent together.

Of course it is impossible for you to recognize that your approach can cause harm to some vulnerable people .. even when they tell you it is so.

Then specify the harm. I see you tossing around a lot of accusations of what you think I say, how you think I treat people, and how you think they feel, based on absolutely nothing at all, since you have never met me, much less been able to observe my provision of pastoral care. (Most of which is entirely off topic, of course, since this thread isn't supposed to be about any one person's approach, but about a bill, and it's political, legal, historical and civil rights implications).

But if I treat such a person as you describe with respect, care and compassion, then what harm have I done them?

On the other hand, the approach you advocate - of actively trying to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity - is well documented to deepen dysphoria and despair, to deepen shame, to have negative mental health outcomes, and to drive people away both from God and the Church. So why would I even consider that an appropriate pastoral approach?

 

[Philip_B]

Of course it is impossible for you to recognize that your approach can cause harm to some vulnerable people .. even when they tell you it is so.

I think that is ungracious. In Real Life @Paidiske is well regarded for important sensitive and Christ-Centred ministry. You are quite free to disagree with her, however this accusation is not reasonable and is based on something you have imagined, based on you own position.

 

[creslaw]

I think that is ungracious. In Real Life @Paidiske is well regarded for important sensitive and Christ-Centred ministry. You are quite free to disagree with her, however this accusation is not reasonable and is based on something you have imagined, based on you own position.

I am discussing the approach to helping, not the person.

 

[creslaw]

On the other hand, the approach you advocate - of actively trying to change someone's sexual orientation or gender identity - is well documented to deepen dysphoria and despair, to deepen shame, to have negative mental health outcomes, and to drive people away both from God and the Church. So why would I even consider that an appropriate pastoral approach?

So it is ok for you to criticize my approach to helping but not for me to criticize your approach ... mmmm ???

No one is actively trying to change someone's sexual orientation, though that is the spurious claim made by the "conversion therapy" propaganda.

Only people who ask for help, on the basis that they have their own personal conviction that homosexuality is wrong & sinful for them, would be considered for help & support, which would mostly be listening, counseling, & praying.

It is important to accept people as autonomous individuals who are able to directly access the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and provide help & support specifically for the problem they identify.

You said concerning your prayer: "If it is vague, it is vague to allow space for God to decide what's important in Joe's life, where he needs to grow and heal. Not cowardly so much as having the humility to realise that we don't set the agenda, the Holy Spirit does."

That might sound very religious but it does not address the person's specific struggle, nor does it recognize his personal feelings, nor does it support his specific needs ... in other words you are telling this person that they are possibly wrong and it is not the leading of the Holy Spirit that is guiding them. I have too much respect for the individual to do that.

 

[kiwimac]

Just out of curiosity are you in fact a bishop in the Union of Utrecht?

I am the Bishop of Aotearoa / New Zealand for the Reformed Old Catholic Church. So yes.

 

[The Liturgist]

You made a false statement, and I corrected it.

Indeed, just for my part I kind of wish this thread could return to the subject matter as opposed to people just being mean to you for no reason.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am the Bishop of Aotearoa / New Zealand for the Reformed Old Catholic Church. So yes.

Very cool. I would love to see your liturgical texts.

 

[creslaw]

Indeed, just for my part I kind of wish this thread could return to the subject matter as opposed to people just being mean to you for no reason.

What constitutes approaches to helping that do or do not contravene the proposed Victorian law is what is being discussed. P believes that my approach will break the law and so proposes an approach which she believes is a better alternative ... my response is that her approach is ineffective and even harmful for some people.

Post #1: "In Victoria (Australia), the Andrews Government is trying to pass laws that will make it a criminal offence to try to convert a gay to a heterosexual lifestyle. The law specifically mentions prayer and religious practices. The way the law is worded allows for the prosecution and re-educating of people who try with or without the consent of the individual to help a gay become straight."​

In future, if you want to criticize me, it would probably show more integrity to do so directly.

 

[The Liturgist]

What constitutes approaches to helping that do or do not contravene the proposed Victorian law is what is being discussed. P believes that my approach will break the law and so proposes an approach which she believes is a better alternative ... my response is that her approach is ineffective and even harmful for some people.

Post #1: "In Victoria (Australia), the Andrews Government is trying to pass laws that will make it a criminal offence to try to convert a gay to a heterosexual lifestyle. The law specifically mentions prayer and religious practices. The way the law is worded allows for the prosecution and re-educating of people who try with or without the consent of the individual to help a gay become straight."​

In future, if you want to criticize me, it would probably show more integrity to do so directly.

Dude, I did not intend to criticize you and I still don’t, no matter what you think of my posts. I resigned from the United Church of Christ due to, among other things, the denomination taking unacceptable positions in terms of affirming sinful behaviors relating to or deriving from homosexuality, in contrast to the witness of the ancient church and the clear teaching of scripture.

@Paidiske has assured me that my concerns, which I raised in an earlier post regarding this law, are unfounded, and I am also opposed to conversion therapy, because it is known to be ineffective and to increase dysphoria among homosexuals, leading to their suicide. The worst cases were the pharmaceutical treatments forced on people like the pioneering computer scientist Alan Turing, who killed himself.

I believe the only legitimate form of human sexuality is reproduction, within the protective, nurturing environment of Christian sacramental marriage. Everything else is strange flesh. However, a great many people suffer from undesired and uncontrollable urges regarding the same sex, and the approach to pastoral care @Paidiske uses in those cases is much safer in my opinion than conversion therapy, which is especially dangerous and cruel when imposed on teenagers.

I would also never lead a congregation in a public prayer concerning the sexuality of a specific person. Singling someone out in that manner could be extremely harmful. But I certainly would not perform a gay marriage or condone other lifestyle choices contrary to Christianity. For example, if a parishioner came to me and told me they wanted to divorce their husband or wife to marry another woman, or another man, I would tell them that such an act is adultery according to the teachings of Christ and I would refuse to officiate at such a wedding.