In Arminianism, God excludes some people from salvation

[FreeGrace2]

It's not unjust for God to not love everyone. It would only be unjust if He was obligated to do so.

The Bible declares that God is love. So how do you defend the position that God doesn't love most of humanity and sends them to hell unilaterally?

The OT is full of support that God continued to love the nation Israel, in spite of their continual unfaithfulness. Even the prophet Hosea reflects God's love towards His unfaithful people.

 

[Hammster]

Your "choice" fo words reveals your failure to understand God's character.

If you did understand His perfect justice, you wouldn't have used such inflammatory words, like "so petty" and "supposedly loves".

And your argument falls flat on its face. It is Calvinism that claims that God doesn't love most of His creation and chose to condemn them unilaterally.

Your post is not a rebuttal.

 

[Hammster]

Non sequitur. In the Calvinist view, no one CAN change unless God causes them to. So your "defense" here is hollow.

No, it's not. It makes the point. People in hell would ONLY have an excuse if they wanted to change, but God wouldn't allow it. The Calvinist view has people in hell for actual sin. The free gracers have people in hell for non-sin. That's unjust.

 

[Hammster]

The Bible declares that God is love. So how do you defend the position that God doesn't love most of humanity and sends them to hell unilaterally?

The OT is full of support that God continued to love the nation Israel, in spite of their continual unfaithfulness. Even the prophet Hosea reflects God's love towards His unfaithful people.

Yes, God loves His CHOSEN people. That's the reformed view.

 

[OzSpen]

It's not unjust for God to not love everyone. It would only be unjust if He was obligated to do so.

For God to love a small section of humanity so much that he changes them and takes them to eternal heaven, but he hates the rest of humanity so much that he damns them and sends them to eternal hell, in my understanding is not an example of a fair, righteous and just God.

 

[Hammster]

For God to love a small section of humanity so much that he changes them and takes them to eternal heaven, but he hates the rest of humanity so much that he damns them and sends them to eternal hell, in my understanding is not an example of a fair, righteous and just God.

How is it unfair to condemn people who hate Him and reject Him and spend their lives in sin?

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, God loves His CHOSEN people. That's the reformed view.

That's the Calvinistic Reformed view. It is not the Reformed Arminian view. You have a rather myopic view of Reformed. For the Reformed Arminian like myself, I am convinced that God loves the entire world.

And have a guess what? John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, agrees with me and not with you. In his commentary on John 3:16 he states: 'faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish' (source).

So John Calvin agrees with the Reformed Arminian position of God loving the entire human race.

John Calvin represents a Reformed position on God's love for the whole world, meaning the entire human race, in John 3:16. Is John Calvin representative of the Reformed position?

 

[OzSpen]

How is it unfair to condemn people who hate Him and reject Him and spend their lives in sin?

It makes God the author of evil.
How is it fair for God to not condemn ALL people who hate him?

 

[Hammster]

That's the Calvinistic Reformed view. It is not the Reformed Arminian view. You have a rather myopic view of Reformed. For the Reformed Arminian like myself, I am convinced that God loves the entire world.

So you disagree that He has chosen people, despite what scripture says?

And have a guess what? John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism,

(This shows your ignorance of Calvinism since Calvin didn't found it)

agrees with me and not with you. In his commentary on John 3:16 he states: 'faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish' (source).

Calvin also
So John Calvin agrees with the Reformed Arminian position of God loving the entire human race. [/QUOTE] Calvin also believed in infant baptism. So obviously I don't agree with him on everything. In fact, I have hardly read any Calvin.

John Calvin represents a Reformed position on God's love for the whole world, meaning the entire human race, in John 3:16. Is John Calvin representative of the Reformed position?

I have a biblical view that says God actually saves those He loves, not that He sends some that He loves to hell for disagreeing with Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your post is not a rebuttal.

Opinion filed. I'd call my post the truth. And I noticed no rebuttal or refutation from your response.

 

[Hammster]

It makes God the author of evil.

How?

How is it fair for God to not condemn ALL people who hate him?

It's not. It's called mercy.

 

[Hammster]

Opinion filed. I'd call my post the truth. And I noticed no rebuttal or refutation from your response.

It was off topic. The thread isn't about me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, it's not. It makes the point. People in hell would ONLY have an excuse if they wanted to change, but God wouldn't allow it.

]
You keep missing the point. No one CAN change unless God causes it. Right?

The Calvinist view has people in hell for actual sin.

Which is unbiblical, for the following reasons:

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42
and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”

1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I know how Calvinists warp these verses into something thay do not eithe SAY or MEAN.

The free gracers have people in hell for non-sin. That's unjust.

Says who? They are in hell for not qualifying to live with God eternally by their own free rejection of God's free gift of eternal life.
New American Standard Bible

Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

How do you think the Father "has qualified us"? By giving us His life; eternal life.

Those who have rejected that free gift have no other place to go in eternity.

How is that unfair? Please be specific.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, God loves His CHOSEN people. That's the reformed view.

Can you provide any verse that clearly states that God loves ONLY His chosen people? Of course not. The view isn't supported Biblically.

What do you do with Hosea, a model of God's love for His people (chosen) who repeatedly rejected Him? God commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute and she was never faithful to him, and he finally bought her at a slave market for the price of a gored bull (cheap).

That is a demonstration of God's love, which you have blasphemously and snidely called "petty" on God's part.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is it unfair to condemn people who hate Him and reject Him and spend their lives in sin?

Because He didn't change them the way Calvinists claim He changes the "elect" for no apparent reason.

Per the Calvinist view, God is capricious, arbitrary, despotic and dicatorial. That is not the God revealed in His Word. Far from it.

Calvinists won't ever admit this, but from all the explanations and descriptions, that is exactly the picture of God that is painted by Calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was off topic. The thread isn't about me.

Duck and weave! Again.

 

[Hammster]

Can you provide any verse that clearly states that God loves ONLY His chosen people? Of course not. The view isn't supported Biblically.

What do you do with Hosea, a model of God's love for His people (chosen) who repeatedly rejected Him? God commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute and she was never faithful to him, and he finally bought her at a slave market for the price of a gored bull (cheap).

That is a demonstration of God's love, which you have blasphemously and snidely called "petty" on God's part.

You keep giving examples of God loving His people.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You keep giving examples of God loving His people.

Right. Even the ones who never loved Him back. Why do you keep ignoring that part?
What say you about Hosea?

RT like to make fun of the idea that God would love those who don't love Him, yet Hosea reflects God's love towards those who rejected Him, as Hosea's wife rejected him.

 

[Hammster]

Right. Even the ones who never loved Him back. Why do you keep ignoring that part?
What say you about Hosea?

RT like to make fun of the idea that God would love those who don't love Him, yet Hosea reflects God's love towards those who rejected Him, as Hosea's wife rejected him.

I've never made fun of the idea that God would love those who don't love Him. That is the heart of Reformed Theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've never made fun of the idea that God would love those who don't love Him.

You and your ilk.

That is the heart of Reformed Theology.

No, the heart is that God created the human race antagonistic to Him, so He had to arbitrarily select a few, change them against their will, so that they will love Him back. If that isn't RT, please take it apart point by point.

Did any of the selected ones (according to RT) want the change He makes in them? Of course not. So it's against their will.

On what basis does He select these few? For no apparent reason. Therefore, totally arbitrary and capricious.

That does not describe the loving God of Scripture. Not even close.