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Impossible to be saved like the thief on the cross!

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by The Bible is Right, Sep 17, 2002.

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  1. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    I just have second to comment on Mark 16. The latter part of Mark 16 is only found missing in 2 versions of the manuscripts and one of them left space for the missing verses. These mere 2 manuscripts verses the thousands that have it speak volumes that the verses do belong there. Try reading the chapter without them there it seems to just stop with more to be said.

    Then quickly I will post an aticle for your reading by Wayne Jackson.

    Was Cornelius, the Roman centurion, saved before and without baptism? Some so claim.

    They reason in this fashion: Cornelius received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized (Acts 10:44-48). But only a child of God receives the Holy Spirit. Thus, Cornelius was a child of God before his baptism.

    The argument is invalid for several reasons.

    First, Cornelius’ reception of the Holy Spirit represented a very unique situation. He was the first Gentile to be offered the gospel. This was a revolutionary step in the unfolding of God’s scheme of redemption.

    The fact is, the supernatural work of the Spirit in this case had nothing at all to do with Cornelius’ personal salvation. The outpouring of the Spirit was to persuade the Jews that Gentiles had a right to the kingdom of heaven, as well as Jews. Note these passages.


    “And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 10:45).
    “If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?” (Acts 11:17).

    “And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.” (Acts 15:8-9).

    Second, the apostle Peter, in his defense of the Gentiles’ acceptance into the church, made it very clear that God “made no distinction between them [Gentiles] and us [Jews]” in the matter of salvation (Acts 15:9). If one can learn, therefore, what the Jews were required to do in order to secure the remission of their sins, he will be forced to conclude that the identical process applied to Cornelius and his household.

    Acts 2 contains the record of the first Jewish response to the gospel. Believers who had been convinced of the message regarding Christ were instructed: “[R]epent and be immersed ... for the forgiveness of your sins” (2:38). Baptism was crucial to their obedience.

    One must conclude that Cornelius was under an equal obligation. No wonder Peter “commanded” the Gentile soldier to be immersed (10:48).

    Third, according to Peter’s rehearsal of these events, which is more chronological than is Luke’s original record (cf. 11:4), the Spirit fell upon Cornelius just as the apostle “began to speak” (11:15), and therefore, before this Gentile even heard the message, hence, before he had faith (cf. Rom. 10:17). If the argument mentioned above is valid, then Cornelius was saved without faith – which is quite unreasonable.
     
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    I've wondered about that, Louis! I know that if _I_ fell away, and then was restored to salvation, I would wanna be water-baptized again.
    I wouldn't be so quick to call it a "decree". Jesus said, "he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved". What if rather than a DECREE, this was simply a statement of FACT?]

    The problem with viewing it as a decree, is then you are at a conundrum (I've been DYING to use that word ever since "7 Days" went off the air...) when it comes to passages like, "Whosoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. He who does not believe is judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the Son of God." Jn3:16-18

    And, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be SAVED". Did you hear, "WATER-BAPTISM" in those verses? No. Here is the "conundrum"---if dipping is part of salvation, then why is it blatently left out of so many SALVATION VERSES?

    WHAT IF---what if water-baptism is a SACREMENT, to "fulfill all righteousness", to "appeal to God for a clear conscience". An action that is a part of HAVING BEEN SAVED, but not a part of that-which-CAUSES-salvation?

    Isn't that concept, much more Scriptural?
    I was thinking in regards to John-the-Baptist---who "baptized with water only; but He who comes AFTER me will baptize with the Holy Spirit". I know, that in my case, just as if I had fallen-away and then been restored ( ;) @ Louis ), in exactly the same way if I had been water-baptized and THEN believed, I would wanna be baptized again. I think the water-baptism is a sacrement that every Christian will WANT---but I've never heard of a Christian exploding, upon being baptized, twice...

    ;)
     
  3. Hello: Mark 16:16--"He that believeth and is Baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed"; Jesus is teaching & preaching the same message He's been proclaiming for 3 1/2 years here--that is, that "Baptism" OF the HOLY SPIRIT is required for Biblical salvation; listen: Spirit Baptism "always" precedes water baptism in Regeneration (NOT vice versa); same Book-Mark 1:8--"I indeed have baptized you with "water": but HE shall Baptize you WITH THE HOLY GHOST"!! We find these same words in all 4 Gospels, it couldn't be any clearer; now, the thief on the cross "was" baptized, but NOT with water, he was Baptized "into" the Holy Spirit by the Lord (see I Cor 12:13)***
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I know that if _I_ fell away, and then was restored to salvation, I would wanna be water-baptized again. "

    LOL..just goes to show that OSAS, but thats nother topic all together.
     
  5. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
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    The bible only tells us to baptized one time. Once you are in Christ having died with him in baptism you have had your sins washed away and are no longer your same old creature but a new creature. Once you are in Christ if you fall away you just simply repent, pray and confess your sins to God and your sins will be forgiven.

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    Which is it? Water Baptism or Holy Spirit Baptism? When Paul wrote the book of Eph there was only 1 baptism at that time. Eph 4:5. If it is water baptism then we can't have Holy Spirit baptism. If it is Holy Spirit baptism then we should'nt baptize in water because it would be pointless.

     Do you believe that everyone that became a christian in the 1st Century was baptized by the Holy Spirit like the Apostles were on the day of Petacost?

    Are you sure about that? My bible does'nt agree with this statement. Now when you say Spirit Baptism you mean being filled with the Holy Ghost correct?

    When you read Acts 8 you will see that Philip preaches the word of God to Samaria. He baptized them. How do you suppose they were baptized? It sure wasnt with the Holy Spirit because the apostles had to come to Samaria and lay hands on them before they received the Holy Spirit.  Philip doesnt let us down. We find out how they were baptized when he teaches the word of God to the Eunuch. We clearly see that they went down into the water. So the people of Samaria were baptized in water BEFORE THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT. If Holy Spirit Baptism was necessary for salvation why in the world was Philip wasting his time baptising people with water? Why was the Eunuch in such a hurry to be baptized with water after Philip preached to him about Jesus? You want to know why, its because water baptism is necessary for salvation. What about the apostle Paul do you belive he was saved before he was baptized? Acts 22:16 plainly states what Ananias tells Paul. 16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

    You tell me my friend when was Pauls sins washed away?

    Im not finished yet. Check this out.

    Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at
    Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper
    regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
     2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when
    you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much
    as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
     3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you
    baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
     4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of
    repentance, saying to the people that they should believe
    on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
     5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of
    the Lord Jesus.
     6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit
    came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and
    prophesied.


    I want you to take careful note of what these verses are teaching. First you see the question asked if they had received the HS when the belived. This implies that they could of been Christians without receiveing the HS. Paul here connects the idea of belief with baptism. Notices his very next question Into what were you baptized? When he found out they had only been baptized with John baptism he teaches them about Christ and then they are baptized into the name of Jesus. What kind of baptism was this. Just take a look back at Acts 8:16 It is abundantly clear that there were baptized in water. AFTER they were baptized with water then Paul lays his hands on them THEN the HS comes upon them. Once again we have water baptism First then they received the HS by the laying on of hands by the apostle. When you read through the bible you will see that only the apostles had the ability to lay hands on people so they would receive the HS. The only exception was Cornilus household. They were baptized with the HS in a like manner that is as the Apostles were. When it says like them it was only like it because it came directly from heaven and was not imparted by the laying on of hands. I have provided an article in my last post that explains the purpose of this.

    Now I want you take a honest look at all those baptism passages in the bible. When you look at them and read them see what comes to mind HS baptism or water baptism. Think of the imagary. When it describes it as washing, being raised up, being buried, and look at the great commision in Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, This is something they were suppose to do.

    If you want even more proof that baptism is necessary for salvation I can give it to you abundantly. In fact you could save me a whole lot of typing if you just look at what I and TBR posted on this banned thread. http://www.christianforums.com/threads/22145-6.html
     
  6. The manifestation of the Spirit, as it relates to holy Spirit baptism was not always done to every person, Acts 8:16 proves what you said to be false!  And Acts 2:38-42; 8:38, there was no manifestation of the holy Spirit in these conversions they were only baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, now surely no one would say that these were not saved.  Which let us know that a person is saved per Mark 16:16a "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"!  Remember Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords, and that this is his decree, that all men must obey.  You like everyone else go to the thief on the cross as a role model for salvation, but what we learn here is that Jesus had compassion on this man, but this is not for you and me, it was only for the thief!  Matt. 28:18 is when our King of kings and Lord of lords begain his reign over the whole world, and He has :"AND JESUS CAME AND SPAKE UNTO THEM, SAYING (ALL POWER "AUTHORITY" IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH"!  This is when ALL MEN BECAME SUBJECT TO HIM AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  This is when all had better listen to the King of kings and Lord of lords when he said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" This is His DECREE and we must obey the KING!  1 Cor.12:13 is baptism in water where God operates on us and gives us a new spirit Col.2:12-13, Rom.6:5, Eph.1:13 to walk in newness of life.
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    The problem BIR is that it can be shown that people were saved without baptism, Paul even speaks out against any type of ritual as all of them do fall under the law and comes to the conclusion that its grace through faith that saves. No other requirements mentioned :)

    "baptism in water where God operates on us and gives us a new spirit "

    Wrong again, by your own posting. Acts clearly shows that people were "water ritualized" (I'm going to start calling it that to cease confusion on what real baptism is-ie the Holy Spirit baptism) and they didn't get the spirit. Just another clue that the water ritual is a meaningful ritual, but not an essential one to salvation.
     
  8. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Just have a quick comment for LB. I must say LB I really enjoyed looking at all the verses you presented to back up what you are saying. Here let me list them below in the order I read them. :)















    I hope it did'nt take to long to read them all. LOL
     
  9. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    I would like to know, honostly, how many of you believe that you must be a member of the Church of Christ (or state the proper name of a denomination) to be saved? Forget about water for just a minute. Are there any saved Christians outside your denomination?
     
  10. Was there any saved out side the body of Christ when the church started?

    Here's what we have in Christ in his church:

    Forgiven, Acts 2:38; 1 John 1:7-9

    Peace with God, Rom. 5:1;8:1

    All Blessings, Eph. 1:3-14

    Prayers Heard, 1Peter 3:12; 1John 5:14

    Assured of truth, John 8:31-32

    True lasting Joy, Gal. 5:22

    Comfort in Trials, Rom. 8:18,28; 2 Cor.1:3f

    Prepared for Death, Philp. 1:21-24; 2 Tim. 4:6f

    Eternal Life 1 John 2:25; Rom.6:22

    No man made church can offer these things.

    What and who was Paul warning the church at Ephesus about in Acts 20:27-31, men would come in and destroy the church, and draw away disciples after them.  Was he right?  Where did denominations come from?  Did they come from God?

    If they came from God, we would be able to read about them in his word the Bible, like we can read about Israel and the Lord's church in the new testament.  Can the church be restored?  If men like Alexander Campbell and Barton W. Stone changed their mind about what they first believed, and decided to follow the bible faithfully and to the letter as best they could, and do the things that only are taught in the new testament according to Jesus and the apostles teachings, I believe the church can be and has been restored.  Good people like you, if you would follow only the bible, and not get caught up in man's way of thinking and stick to the word of God according to the new testament and the teachings of Jesus and the apostles can be in the body of Christ.

    I have a good friend, who is a Baptist preacher and has his Master's in bible theology, told me that the only reason that he will not change, is because of his wife, and all of his friends he had made over the years.  He said that he knows that the church of Christ is right in it's doctrines because he examined them through and through, and he studied the history of restoration and every- thing he could about what the church of Christ teaches.  Now this I must say also, Not all congregations of the churches of Christ hold to the truth, just like the book of Revelations, the seven churches of Asia, not all were found perfect by the Lord, but they were all the same body, it's all about the doctrines men teach.
     
  11. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Is you friend, the Baptist guy, saved? or is He lost because He will not move to your church?
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
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    But no two churches in the world agree completely on everything. This is due to our own imperfection---we operate through the Holy Spirit, but we retain our own fallibility (hence we-CHRISTIANS still commit sin). I believe that I am right on a number of things---"OSAS", "speaking-in-tongues", "baptism-of-the-Holy-Spirit"---yet am I perfect in my opinions and understanding? Certainly not---there is only ONE who is perfect, and I ain't Him...

    Catholics (largely) believe in salvation by "faith + works + sacrements"---yet there are many Catholics who believe in savation by grace through faith (PERIOD), who believe in walking in Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit---do I expect to see these Catholics in Heaven?

    YES I DO. As I do with many Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Charismatics, and Church-of-Christ. I would worry very much about any one denomination which claimed exclusive access to salvation...
     
  13. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Ben,

    I am with you on your last post for sure. But, I do worry about new Christians coming to this forum and hearing that they are not saved. I can't think or dream up a more hurtful message to convey to another believer.
    That is my concern and activity in this area of the forum. I am trying to make that clear to those that wish to have a real and powerful witness for Christ.

    Blessings
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I hope it did'nt take to long to read them all. LOL"

    *chuckles* I have quite a few to "back me up" . I guess you just dont' read my posts very often. A great one, in which I have gone lengths to explain is Romans 11:29. Please don't say I haven't put forth scripture when I have. That's a very dishonest thing to say.
     
  15. Azeotroper

    Azeotroper New Member

    34
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    Elder Mike,

     
    TBIR feels that his pseudodenomination is the Church that Christ left when he ascended into heaven. Thus, anybody not in this pseudodenomination must be LOST. :confused:

    As for TBIR's Baptist friend, I am sure he will not tell us if he thinks his friend is saved, but will quote 7 or 8 verses, and leave us to figure out what he thinks is obvious .........and I know that it matters not, TBIR, what we think, but only what God thinks.

    One thing I do admire about TBIR is that he has obviously witnessed to his Baptist friend that he is in danger of dying without salvation. I have never had a CoC person invite me to a service of theirs or witness in any way. I would think that if they are so convinced that we are lost, that they would be at the doorstep of my church on every Sunday morning warning me that I need to come to the CoC for salvation. I wonder if others have been witnessed to by the CoC?

    But then, I haven't done a very good job witnessing to Mormons I have known, either.
     
  16. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

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    Azeotroper,

    I hear ya. I am also sure the answer will be a long list of scripture or a question.

    I have a feeling that once He is set free from this slavery that many will come to know the Lord from such a witness as He.

    Thanks for the prespective.

    Bessings
     
  17. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
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    LB I have not seen where you have posted any verses. I may of missed them, but I went back as far as page 4 of this thread and did'nt find any except for one post where you said you thought something was in John or something like that. Would you point me to the post where you have went to great lengths using Rom 11:29. I am very curious how your going to use this verse to prove anything. I would be more than happy to study your comments.

    The COC does not teach that only those that attend a church with the name COC on the building will be saved. I say again, the COC does not teach that only those that attend a church with the name COC on the building will be saved. We do however say that you must be a member of Christ Body which is the 1 church/body (Eph 4:4) and the way you get into that 1 body is by baptism (1Cor 12:13) The COC is not a denomination. A denomination is a divison in faith. The bible teaches over and over for us to be like minded without division. Just look at Phip 1:27 where Paul worked so hard and wanted so much for them to be like minded. I have stated before that there a seveal different names used in the bible for churchs. Some of them are Firstborn, Church of God, and Church of Christ are just some of the names used. Don't you think it is important to name your church in way that it gives honer to the owner? Alot of the denomations today are named after a man or creed. How much does that honer the owner? Why do people say I am Catholic or I am a Methodist? I tell you what I say, I say I am a Christian. We seem to keep getting hung up on this whole name thing. I am more concerned about how it is you get into that 1 body than what you may call yourself. I could attend a COC all my life but it will not save me at all if I have not been baptised into Christ/Body/Church. Please answer these questions.

    Do you have to be in Christ to be saved?
    If yes, How does the bible say you get into Christ?
    Do your sins have to be forgiven in order to be saved?

    Oh I thought of another good question. One of you said that you have to have the HS before your saved. So if one of those people in Acts 8 died after being baptized only in the name of Jesus and before the Apostles laid their hands on them so they could receive the HS would the be saved or lost? ;)

    Please listen to me. I want you to really think about what is being said on this board. I am not trying to discourage anyone or bring them down. I am just proclaiming what the bible say loud and clear to me. If I did not love you and care for you I would just say nothing. Please set aside your traditions and what you have been taught in the past. Instead open your mind to the word of God and use it for your authority. Do not even take me for my word, instead study what is being presented to see if it is true or not. You might think if I change my view I am condeming my loves ones that have died to hell. First of all you can't change the past. I guantee you that those that have passed on where not found in Christ when the died would probably be like the rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazerus. Remember how the rich man pleaded to Abraham to send someone back to his brothers so that they would accept the truth so they would'nt end up where he was. So please open your bible and study. Remember those men in Acts 19 did'nt have any problems accepting the truth from Paul. They changed because the understood that their baptism was not the same as being baptized into Christ. I take it very serious what I proclaim on here as I will be held responsible for it. I hope and pray that if I am proclaiming a false message that you will correct me by the scriputers. The last thing I want to be guilty of is teaching a false message.

    God Bless you all,

    Cougan

     

     
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I may of missed them, but I went back as far as page 4 of this thread and did'nt find any except for one post where you said you thought something was in John or something like that"

    Okay, then try the upteen other threads on OSAS :) or more simply, as Ben in PM. :)

    "The COC does not teach that only those that attend a church with the name COC on the building will be saved. "

    True, there are 2 main branches of the COC, yours probalby being the more moderate that doesn't teach that you have to attend a COC church.

    "way you get into that 1 body is by baptism "

    *chuckles* you must hate the book of romans then because it totally messes witht that idea and says its wrong ;)

    "How much does that honer the owner? "

    I really don't think God cares if you call your meeting place the church of yahoo, as long as you're good biblically and stay true to the gospel. If you want to get tecnical the english words Church of Christ are a tranlation and you are not paying homage to the owner, the name should be in greek or hebrew.

    "Do you have to be in Christ to be saved?"

    Depends. Paul though to be "in christ" was something totally differnent then it seems you do. To be "in Christ" was a not just something that's ho hum, it had a certain mystic quality to it that most churches, especially the COC don't have.

    "Do your sins have to be forgiven in order to be saved? "

    Yup, happens at salvation, not water ritual. :)

    "One of you said that you have to have the HS before your saved."

    I'd say lost, but then again its a "what if" and has no bearing on the situation or docerinal disscusion.."what if Esau didn't give away his birthright?

    "Please set aside your traditions and what you have been taught in the past"

    What's funny is you assume i haven't done this already. I did this a looonnngg time ago and found the views I have now. I urge you to shed the trappings of this world and do the same. :)
     
  19. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    I must say that I was pretty frustrated here. I worked over an hour responding to LB comments then when I hit submit it said I had to many images. When I hit the back button everything was gone. I spent another hour typing out my response below. Word of advice, copy your post before you hit submit. I found out what the problem was. It was because my post was to long. Since we now have the new MWORD input thing here you can not check the length of your post. So take the advice from someone who has fallen prey to this and be sure and copy your post before you submit it.

    Cougan
     
  20. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    What does simply, as Ben in PM mean? I don't have time to go and try and search out where you have actually used scripture. Just provide me a link to it and I will read it. I noticed on another thread that someone else accused you of the same thing. I guess I am not alone.

    The body of Christ is not divided. What I said was that we do not teach that only if you attend a church called COC that you will be saved. I have already stated there is more than one name used in reference to the church. You must be in that one body and we are told to assemble with one another that make up that one body.

    Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as <I>is </I>the manner of some, but exhorting <I>one another, </I>and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

    Please show me where in the book Romans that will give me trouble. I love the book of Romans and it teaches very clearly that you must be baptized in order to get into the 1 body. Either give me verses or a link to thread where you have them.

    "I really don't think" I think I found the source of the problem. :) So with your view it would be ok for christians to attend a church called church of deamons. After all God doesnt care what its called. You proclaim on this board that people should believe in Jesus. But, technical Jesus is a tranlation from the Greek. So using your own arguement you need to start telling people to belive in the Greek word for Jesus instead of the English one. What a goofy arguement.

    It does not depend. The answer is yes or no. You are either in Christ or out of Christ. Maybe I should ask the question like this. If you are outside of christ are you saved? You never even touched the 2nd part of the question. If yes then how does the bible teach that you get into Christ? Would you please deal with this LB.
     
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