Implication of evolution on animal rights

VirOptimus

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That is true biologically, but often the word "animals" is used for "non-human animals".


I believe in evolution, so there is one LOL

No, one accepts the scientific findings, i.e. physical reality. No belief needed. :)

I also misunderstood your o.p. I read it as a religious screed about how only religious people care about human rights. Sorry.
 
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cloudyday2

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No, one accepts the scientific findings, i.e. physical reality. No belief needed. :)
I added to that post, because I didn't see your mention of "observed phenomena". I think the issue is the use of "belief" in Christian evangelism where it is a choice that lands you in heaven or hell. "Belief" can also mean watching an airplane fly and then believing that it is possible.
 
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com7fy8

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One time, while I was living outside, I was resorting and having something to eat, in a field. And I looked down and ants had arrived to get some food I had dropped. One ant had a gigantic head which seems half as long as itself; I figured she much be a soldier ant. Then she chopped another ant in half. And another ant sped up to the chopped ant and seemed to look at it, then rushed the soldier ant; but the soldier head-slammed her and she backed off.

To me, that meant she could process her sister being killed, then process who was to blame and seek revenge, but then realize the soldier was too much to handle. And why the soldier didn't just chop her in two, I don't know.

My lady friend's doggie will come from another room and just stand and look at her. He appears able to process what he wants in the other room, and come to her and stand so she gets the message . . . food. So, to me this shows he can abstractly know what he wants, where to go, and expect her to know what he means . . . without a word.

If he comes and stands in front of me, he can mean he wants me to give him a doggie massage.

What I think is funny is how I can scare a mosquito or fly away, but then it can come right back. I think this is because they forget why they were fleeing afraid. And then the smell which attracts them brings them back.

Once, at my mother's, there was a neighbor's dog that would want me to come out to play. One time, I just didn't cooperate. He started yelping like there was an emergency! I mean, it was a very different way of barking. And I got the impression he was on purpose calling 911 in order to get my attention. That could mean he could even plan deceit, abstractly knowing what he wanted . . . who to fool.
 
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Gene2memE

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In evolution the fittest get to dictate who gets eaten and experimented on.

Nope. But nice way of highlighting the dangers of confusing an IS with an OUGHT.

Survival of the fittest is a conclusion drawn from nature, not a determination about how people should act.

You've repeated the same basic error that led to Social Darwinism.
 
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Caliban

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For those who believe in evolution the distinction between humans and animals is blurred. Animals are consumed as food, harmed in scientific research, etc.

It seems to me that when the religious distinction between humans and animals disappears it might be easier to justify consuming humans as food, harming humans in scientific research, etc.

So I wonder if there should be a buffer of the most human-like animal species which are declared off-limits for food and harmful scientific research. Animals that come to mind are apes, dolphins, pigs, sheep, goats, dogs, cats, parrots, frogs (I like frogs LOL).
The Princeton Philosopher Peter Singer has done a lot of work in this area--it's worth checking out.
 
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Gene2memE

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The Princeton Philosopher Peter Singer has done a lot of work in this area--it's worth checking out.

A note of caution though, Singer is ... controversial. That's probably the best word. Extreme in some of his views might be another way of putting it. And he's tended to swing back and forth from the middle to the end of the spectrum a bit over the decades.

If you are going to read some of his work, I'd suggest starting in the middle with 'How Are We To Live'. It provides a good overall view of his meta ethical framework, which I found important on reading his more end of the spectrum work from the 1970s/1980s ('Animal Liberation' and 'Should the Baby Live' in particular) or 2000s/2010s ('Ethics of What We Eat' and 'Eating').
 
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Caliban

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A note of caution though, Singer is ... controversial. That's probably the best word. Extreme in some of his views might be another way of putting it. And he's tended to swing back and forth from the middle to the end of the spectrum a bit over the decades.

If you are going to read some of his work, I'd suggest starting in the middle with 'How Are We To Live'. It provides a good overall view of his meta ethical framework, which I found important on reading his more end of the spectrum work from the 1970s/1980s ('Animal Liberation' and 'Should the Baby Live' in particular) or 2000s/2010s ('Ethics of What We Eat' and 'Eating').
I am familiar with Singer and his work. Like all public thinkers and intellectuals, I don't agree with all of his conclusions. His ideas on the value of human life as it relates to consciousness and, for example, I disagree with.

His argument concerning pigs is rather strong.
 
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cloudyday2

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I am familiar with Singer and his work. Like all public thinkers and intellectuals, I don't agree with all of his conclusions. His ideas on the value of human life as it relates to consciousness and, for example, I disagree with.

His argument concerning pigs is rather strong.
Just curious why he thought pigs deserved special treatment.
 
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Caliban

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Just curious why he thought pigs deserved special treatment.
Pigs are highly intelligent and possibly conscious on a level that rivals some humans. Their faculty for emotional suffering is very high. Other animals such as apes, chimps, elephants, and dolphins are also in this category--but we have not typically eaten those animals. I'm not sure what I personally think about that--I'm an enthusiastic meat eater, but he does make a strong case.
 
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Pigs are highly intelligent and possibly conscious on a level that rivals some humans. Their faculty for emotional suffering is very high. Other animals such as apes, chimps, elephants, and dolphins are also in this category--but we have not typically eaten those animals. I'm not sure what I personally think about that--I'm an enthusiastic meat eater, but he does make a strong case.


I cooked a couple of pork medallions for dinner last night. As a result I was feeling somewhat ethically compromised.

Fortunately I was able to assuage a guilty conscience with an excellent marinade of mustard, balsamic, honey and olive oil. :)

OB
 
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Caliban

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I cooked a couple of pork medallions for dinner last night. As a result I was feeling somewhat ethically compromised.

Fortunately I was able to assuage a guilty conscience with an excellent marinade of mustard, balsamic, honey and olive oil. :)

OB
I may not be as moral as a Peter Singer, but I sure eat better.
 
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Lord Vega

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For those who believe in evolution the distinction between humans and animals is blurred. Animals are consumed as food, harmed in scientific research, etc.

It seems to me that when the religious distinction between humans and animals disappears it might be easier to justify consuming humans as food, harming humans in scientific research, etc.

So I wonder if there should be a buffer of the most human-like animal species which are declared off-limits for food and harmful scientific research. Animals that come to mind are apes, dolphins, pigs, sheep, goats, dogs, cats, parrots, frogs (I like frogs LOL).

Genesis 1:26 says that God gave humans dominion over the earth. Which is to say, we're allowed to eat meat, since we're at the top of the food chain according to scripture. Also, why do you feel the need to argue against eating meat? Vegan diets can lead to undernourishment and generally aren't healthy.
 
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Caliban

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Genesis 1:26 says that God gave humans dominion over the earth. Which is to say, we're allowed to eat meat, since we're at the top of the food chain according to scripture. Also, why do you feel the need to argue against eating meat? Vegan diets can lead to undernourishment and generally aren't healthy.
But Genesis also says there was light on earth before the sun--so maybe not the most reliable source.
 
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cloudyday2

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Pigs are highly intelligent and possibly conscious on a level that rivals some humans. Their faculty for emotional suffering is very high. Other animals such as apes, chimps, elephants, and dolphins are also in this category--but we have not typically eaten those animals. I'm not sure what I personally think about that--I'm an enthusiastic meat eater, but he does make a strong case.
Pigs are also very clean animals if they have access to clean water for cooling themselves.
 
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cloudyday2

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Genesis 1:26 says that God gave humans dominion over the earth. Which is to say, we're allowed to eat meat, since we're at the top of the food chain according to scripture. Also, why do you feel the need to argue against eating meat? Vegan diets can lead to undernourishment and generally aren't healthy.
It's about protecting humans from being used as food or as guinea pigs in harmful scientific experiments. Evolution teaches us that we are not all that different from our fellow animals, so any protection of humans would seem arbitrary and flimsy unless it also includes animals that share human traits. If we can justify injecting a chimpanzee with a deadly virus as research then why can't we justify the same for a human? We must protect the chimpanzees and the pigs and the cats and so on if we want to protect the humans. Protecting only humans and not similar animals is a little bit like protecting only right-handed people and not left-handed people. The arbitrary nature of the protections makes them vulnerable to challenge.
 
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stevevw

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For those who believe in evolution the distinction between humans and animals is blurred. Animals are consumed as food, harmed in scientific research, etc.

It seems to me that when the religious distinction between humans and animals disappears it might be easier to justify consuming humans as food, harming humans in scientific research, etc.

So I wonder if there should be a buffer of the most human-like animal species which are declared off-limits for food and harmful scientific research. Animals that come to mind are apes, dolphins, pigs, sheep, goats, dogs, cats, parrots, frogs (I like frogs LOL).
In evolutionary terms, humans are just another species of (hominids). The fact that they have developed higher intelligence is not really to do with morality (a sense of right and wrong) in any objective way but rather a more advanced form of thinking. But in biological terms, it's just the firing of electrical and chemical brain activity no different to animals but just on a different scale.

So I guess in that sense in evolutionary terms regarding humans as exclusively based on their higher thinking is a form of speciesism and there is no justification or basis for doing so. Therefore, there should be no distinction between humans and animals as far as rights are concerned. So according to evolution, we should be able to hunt humans as food like we do animals.

Thankfully we don't see morality as just something that evolved and that there are some universal truths involved beyond electrical and chemical processes where we intuitively know certain things are right and wrong.

Peter Singer is a modern ethicist who supports animal rights. He basically takes a utilitarian ethical position that expands to all living things. Singer supports sentientism which is the idea that all sentient beings including animals are moral. He believes all living beings have interests including animals and their interests should be taken into consideration. Animals have the ability to feel things such as pleasure and pain and have a right to experience a pleasurable life just as humans. This also makes him a hedonist.

His views are quite controversial in that he promotes veganism and says that killing animals for food is immoral.
Peter Singer - Wikipedia
 
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cloudyday2

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His views are quite controversial in that he promotes veganism and says that killing animals for food is immoral.
Peter Singer - Wikipedia
One promising technology is the ability to grow flesh in a lab. This not only eliminates the need for us to kill animals but it also is more efficient and better for the environment. In theory this might allow carnivorous animals to eat without harming other animals. For example my cat could eat canned mouse flesh that was grown in a laboratory and is free of the diseases and parasites that living mice might contain.

Here is a link to an article:
Lab-Grown Meat
 
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