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I'm Pro-Life, but I'm not Anti-Killing

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by jardiniere, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    Can you give examples of innocent children and adults being legally killed?
     
  2. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    In Romans 13, God actually ordains governments to kill in certain contexts. That would be the police and executioners. Elective abortion doctors are neither.

    (Abortions borne out of medical necessity are not considered elective.)
     
  3. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    They are disposed of as medical waste, not buried as humans.
     
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  4. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Not as long as fetuses are consider property.
     
  5. jardiniere

    jardiniere Well-Known Member

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    Born babies with anomalies not fixable by medicine left to die in the hospital (they should be killed, imo). Innocent people convicted of crimes they didn't commit and killed by the government. People who left their guns out for their children to kill themselves with and who are not convicted of murder. Police who kill people who haven't been convicted of a crime, but who are running away from the police. Drone strikes on civilians.
     
  6. jardiniere

    jardiniere Well-Known Member

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    Mm... cremation is totally adequate... I'm going to be disposed of as medical waste, btw. I'm fully human. Is the place of cremation or the behaviors around the body significant?
     
  7. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    You would have enjoyed the German Holocaust, too, then... (Context is everything.)
     
  8. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    :)

    16 Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. 17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.
    ...
    1 Remember .... before the evil days come and the years draw near of which you will say, “I have no pleasure in them”; 2 before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain, 3 in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look through the windows are dimmed, 4 and the doors on the street are shut—when the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low— 5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets— 6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity.

    (Ecclesiastes)

    You may like. :) a link: Ecclesiastes 1 NIV
     
  9. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    I've done my best to explain the major Christian rationale on the matter. And I already surmised that it would be of no value to you given your stated religion. I have given you what you have asked for. I do not seek a pantheist apology for it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
  10. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

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    But abortion may sometimes still be necessary. I worked 40+ years in health care and have seen such cases. I've seen a pregnant woman have a major heart attack at 6 weeks, and develop congestive heart failure. Cardiac output must increase 30-40% during pregnancy, and even a specialized cardiology team experienced in treating heart disease in pregnancy couldn't determine if the mom's damaged heart could meet the demand. Not to mention that some of the drugs needed to treat her condition could cause fetal damage at such an early stage in pregnancy. She decided to terminate the pregnancy. It was definitely not an outcome she wanted in any way. The unborn child committed no crime. It didn't cause her heart disease. It was simply an innocent bystander. Ending its life was tragic, but was morally justifiable because of the biological fact that a fetus makes a direct physiologic demand on its mother's body. And if hard decisions have to be made, the mother's welfare takes priority over the unborn child's unless she decides otherwise. Fortunately, these aren't very common occurrences. But I cannot imagine any other circumstance where killing a newborn would be even remotely considered because its mother is ill.
     
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  11. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    @jayem ,
    1. What would you say was the percentage of pregnancies that required such medically necessary abortions?
    2. Were these women seeking abortions when they were told that they must have one?
    3. Are those circumstances relevant to the vast majority of pregnancies...?
     
  12. jardiniere

    jardiniere Well-Known Member

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    Yes, context is important.
     
  13. Sif

    Sif .

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    I consider my self pro-life in the sense I do not like abortion and would not consider it, personally, unless some rare medical condition such as described by jayem. And given his/her medical description above is why I do not endorse laws that would unilaterally deny such a procedure.

    I am not medially trained (beyond first aid/cpr) and that is one of the many reasons I do not enter the "pro-life" vs. "pro-choice" debate. I will not challenge arguments from either side.
     
  14. jardiniere

    jardiniere Well-Known Member

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    Ecclesiastes is one of my most favorite books of the Bible.

    Life is the only thing we know, and even then, is fragile and temporary. There is no life after death, no judge other than ourselves, no absolute morality or ethics, and no means of absolute knowledge. Even so, I think the excessive killing of people should be focused on as a whole issue of "Why do we allow this to happen without social repercussions?" rather than as compartmentalized into a religious issue.
     
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Tossed in dumpsters like common trash.
     
  16. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    There's obviously nothing inconsistent about the position that sometimes people deserve to die, and sometimes they don't. The Bible itself says that very thing.
     
  17. Anguspure

    Anguspure Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ Supporter

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    The main factor determining ethical treatment of a person on Christianity is their established intrinsic value, according to YHWH.
    Perceived innocence or otherwise has nothing to do with it.
     
  18. jardiniere

    jardiniere Well-Known Member

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    That's as may be, but arguments from Christians who quote the bible for sustaining their side often point to perceived innocence re the unborn. It would be nice to broaden their arguments to underscore intrinsic value of humans, instead.
     
  19. jardiniere

    jardiniere Well-Known Member

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    Show me. I don't think that's true. I am under the impression they are used for research or cremated.
     
  20. ThievingMagpie

    ThievingMagpie Member

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    Semantics, as said before in this thread - being pro-life describes a very specific position on one issue, usually for religious reasons.

    Side bar: I've never understood the high proportion of American conservatives that advocate for the death penalty. This is a group of people who define themselves in opposition to handing power to a Government, and then go on to welcome giving this same Government the right to decide which of its citizens lives and dies.
     
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