Otherwise known as "Old School Baptist". Our doctrine is definitely Calvinist although we never mention the name Calvin. We prefer "the doctrines of grace". The reason I bring this up is because our "people" have been struggling with a principle we call "conditional time salvation". On one side we have the "absolute predestinarian" who will say something like this :
A sample, and oft used, conditionalist statement is as follows: “If you expect to get any blessings in this life you have to work for them.” A fair response would be; “If you can get a blessing by working for it, it is not a blessing at all, but a payment for services rendered.” Our Lord tells us that after we have done all that we are commanded to do we are still unprofitable servants. (Luke 17:10)
Another popular conditionalist statement (known as time-salvation) is, “God saves you for eternity, but your salvation here in time is up to you.” Sound strange? It should, for it is indeed a very strange doctrine (the strange woman of the Book of Proverbs is its mother) and requires the strongest condemnation. A question is in order here - if salvation in time is up to the saved sinner, then how is he to go about saving his old nature from its sins, for the new man in Christ certainly cannot sin? (1 John 3:9) So then, the old man, or the flesh, is what the conditionalist is telling us we need to save, though he may not have sufficient discernment to know, or realize what he is saying. The conditionalist might also tell us we need to repent, but repentance is the gift of God. (Acts 11:18, Rom 2:4,2 Tim 2:25.) Too, the conditionalist might say our great and crying need is to believe God’s promises. (Some say we “ought to” claim the promises.) However, if our trust is to be in the Word of God then we must admit that we believe through Grace, Acts 18:27; God gives us belief, Phil:2:9; and belief is ordained of God, Acts 13:48.
"Question: Can the great, eternal, I Am be influenced by our duties or works to give us more or less blessings in this life? If we labor more, will He bless us more? Or, if we labor less, will He bless us less? If one answers in the affirmative, then we would inquire further how could we understand Malachi 3:6, that our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever and that He changes not. Will God change His mind and give a blessing when one works, or change His mind and not give a blessing when one does not work? It would certainly be a begging of the issue to say that God foreknew, because once one concedes foreknowledge, he has admitted that from everlasting the plan to bless was fixed, as God does not know with uncertainty - which is no knowledge at all. Thus it (God’s prescience or foreknowledge) is tantamount to, and the same with, the eternal ordination, will, and decree of God, whether the workmongers desire to admit it or not!!
Question: Does the new man in Christ Jesus, that which has been born again according to the Scriptures; or the old man in Adam, which is yet in sin, act in obedience to obtain time salvation? If one says it is the new man in Christ Jesus, then we would ask, How can that which is born of God, and cannot sin, possibly stand in need of anything greater than which it now has in its eternal perfection in Christ; which the new man certainly has in Christ? On the other hand, if the old man in Adam can labor in such a way as to act in obedience to obtain these so called “Blessings” of time salvation, then in what manner shall they be bestowed upon him? Are they material, carnal, temporal blessings only for this earth, and have they anything at all to do with that new man in Christ Jesus? We know the Bible speaks of a great conflict and warfare between the old and new man, but this would certainly be setting up an argument for new warfare which the Bible does not shed any light on. (Could our old nature find any joy in spiritual blessings? Also see Eph. 1:4,5.)
Question: What can the old man in the flesh do to please God in order to receive blessings? We know the new man in Christ is already as blessed as he can possibly be; born of the Spirit, conceived in holiness; sinless; perfect in God; in Christ; and in every way entire and complete in Him; wanting nothing. Thus it must be the old man that must act if there is to be new, additional blessings received. And yet we understand from the 8th chapter of Romans that they that are in the flesh cannot please God. If the flesh cannot please God, then how can He be satisfied with any human endeavors in order to render blessings to be received by the old man? And since the new man stands in need of nothing, whence be there such an argument as this?"
James Poole.
The other side who we will call "conditional time salvationist" will say something like this:
"I have never heard or read this to be the Primitive Baptist definition of Time Salvation. My understanding of the term has reference to the blessing of obedience here in time. 'If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.' Isaiah 1:19,20 In other words there is a deliverance from the chastening rod of God and a salvation or deliverance from the pitfalls found in serving idols, living in sin, and all the unhappiness a child of God experiences by his disobedience to God. By the Child of Gods obedience to God's Word he is saved (blessed) here in time."
Unknown author
It almost seems a mystery. On one hand, even the falling of one of the hairs on my head is foreknown and predestined of God, yet on the other hand God is a rewarder of them that "diligently seek Him"
Hebrews 11:
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Yet faith is the gift of God, and we can do "nothing" without Him.
What think ye ??
A sample, and oft used, conditionalist statement is as follows: “If you expect to get any blessings in this life you have to work for them.” A fair response would be; “If you can get a blessing by working for it, it is not a blessing at all, but a payment for services rendered.” Our Lord tells us that after we have done all that we are commanded to do we are still unprofitable servants. (Luke 17:10)
Another popular conditionalist statement (known as time-salvation) is, “God saves you for eternity, but your salvation here in time is up to you.” Sound strange? It should, for it is indeed a very strange doctrine (the strange woman of the Book of Proverbs is its mother) and requires the strongest condemnation. A question is in order here - if salvation in time is up to the saved sinner, then how is he to go about saving his old nature from its sins, for the new man in Christ certainly cannot sin? (1 John 3:9) So then, the old man, or the flesh, is what the conditionalist is telling us we need to save, though he may not have sufficient discernment to know, or realize what he is saying. The conditionalist might also tell us we need to repent, but repentance is the gift of God. (Acts 11:18, Rom 2:4,2 Tim 2:25.) Too, the conditionalist might say our great and crying need is to believe God’s promises. (Some say we “ought to” claim the promises.) However, if our trust is to be in the Word of God then we must admit that we believe through Grace, Acts 18:27; God gives us belief, Phil:2:9; and belief is ordained of God, Acts 13:48.
"Question: Can the great, eternal, I Am be influenced by our duties or works to give us more or less blessings in this life? If we labor more, will He bless us more? Or, if we labor less, will He bless us less? If one answers in the affirmative, then we would inquire further how could we understand Malachi 3:6, that our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever and that He changes not. Will God change His mind and give a blessing when one works, or change His mind and not give a blessing when one does not work? It would certainly be a begging of the issue to say that God foreknew, because once one concedes foreknowledge, he has admitted that from everlasting the plan to bless was fixed, as God does not know with uncertainty - which is no knowledge at all. Thus it (God’s prescience or foreknowledge) is tantamount to, and the same with, the eternal ordination, will, and decree of God, whether the workmongers desire to admit it or not!!
Question: Does the new man in Christ Jesus, that which has been born again according to the Scriptures; or the old man in Adam, which is yet in sin, act in obedience to obtain time salvation? If one says it is the new man in Christ Jesus, then we would ask, How can that which is born of God, and cannot sin, possibly stand in need of anything greater than which it now has in its eternal perfection in Christ; which the new man certainly has in Christ? On the other hand, if the old man in Adam can labor in such a way as to act in obedience to obtain these so called “Blessings” of time salvation, then in what manner shall they be bestowed upon him? Are they material, carnal, temporal blessings only for this earth, and have they anything at all to do with that new man in Christ Jesus? We know the Bible speaks of a great conflict and warfare between the old and new man, but this would certainly be setting up an argument for new warfare which the Bible does not shed any light on. (Could our old nature find any joy in spiritual blessings? Also see Eph. 1:4,5.)
Question: What can the old man in the flesh do to please God in order to receive blessings? We know the new man in Christ is already as blessed as he can possibly be; born of the Spirit, conceived in holiness; sinless; perfect in God; in Christ; and in every way entire and complete in Him; wanting nothing. Thus it must be the old man that must act if there is to be new, additional blessings received. And yet we understand from the 8th chapter of Romans that they that are in the flesh cannot please God. If the flesh cannot please God, then how can He be satisfied with any human endeavors in order to render blessings to be received by the old man? And since the new man stands in need of nothing, whence be there such an argument as this?"
James Poole.
The other side who we will call "conditional time salvationist" will say something like this:
"I have never heard or read this to be the Primitive Baptist definition of Time Salvation. My understanding of the term has reference to the blessing of obedience here in time. 'If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.' Isaiah 1:19,20 In other words there is a deliverance from the chastening rod of God and a salvation or deliverance from the pitfalls found in serving idols, living in sin, and all the unhappiness a child of God experiences by his disobedience to God. By the Child of Gods obedience to God's Word he is saved (blessed) here in time."
Unknown author
It almost seems a mystery. On one hand, even the falling of one of the hairs on my head is foreknown and predestined of God, yet on the other hand God is a rewarder of them that "diligently seek Him"
Hebrews 11:
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Yet faith is the gift of God, and we can do "nothing" without Him.
What think ye ??
